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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

November 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

1000 replies

AttilaTheMeerkat · 21/10/2022 17:16

This is the latest thread, please feel free to write as much or as little as you please.

OP posts:
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7
AttilaTheMeerkat · 31/03/2023 15:53

IAAP

I remember you and was heartened to read an update

Kudos to you. Bloody well done indeed.

OP posts:
MonkeyfromManchester · 31/03/2023 16:20

@IAAP you are flipping amazing. I admire you and your children so much. Xxxxx

Coconut80 · 31/03/2023 21:05

@IAAP bloody amazing update. Your daughter sounds utterly fabulous and self assured. You have raised her well. You sound so calm and rational and sorted. I remember your story,well done. Your story is brave and gives us all hope.

Much love xx

Legomum78 · 31/03/2023 22:28

Having a tough time tonight. Haven't spoken to narc mum for 2 months. Tonight she has emailed me a passive aggressive email outlining ways in which she is a victim and asking why we haven't spoken.

What on earth do I say?

Thelnebriati · 01/04/2023 01:00

Do you want to reply? You don't have to, so that's the first option.
Your second option is to type out a reply but don't send it straight away. What do you want to say to her?
It sounds like she is demanding you parent her. In your shoes, I'd probably write something short like 'So what stopped you talking to me?'

Legomum78 · 01/04/2023 09:34

Thelnebriati · 01/04/2023 01:00

Do you want to reply? You don't have to, so that's the first option.
Your second option is to type out a reply but don't send it straight away. What do you want to say to her?
It sounds like she is demanding you parent her. In your shoes, I'd probably write something short like 'So what stopped you talking to me?'

Thanks for your reply and thoughts.

I have drafted this to send in a few days:

These are indeed challenging times.

I haven’t heard from you either for the last 6 weeks, nor did you call me for a few months before that.

You ask me to explain what is happening, so I will try to do that as simply as I can.

Your expectation is that I will unfailingly provide you with compassion and support while at the same time giving me so little compassion, support, care or warmth. This pattern, punctuated by hostile and aggressive ‘calls to action’ with emotionally abusive punishments (silent treatment, cold detachment and gaslighting), has created an unhealthy relationship between us which is now destroying my mental health.

This pattern, which has been going on for years, is untenable and I am stepping back to protect myself. I don’t owe you and I won’t meet your expectations. I’m not angry, but neither am I at the stage where I can discuss this with you - I will let you know if and when I am at that stage. My priority now is to ensure that with my own family I have the time and the space I need to recover.

Thoughts anyone?

AttilaTheMeerkat · 01/04/2023 09:48

I would urge you not to send this to her as it will be seen by her an an attack on her and will be seized upon accordingly. Messaging her also keep the door of communication open, a door that should remain closed. It is also not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist; the ones that try are the ones who have received the "special training" i;e the now adult children of same.

Radio silence is in itself a powerful response. I would also curtail her methods of being able to contact you by blocking.

OP posts:
Legomum78 · 01/04/2023 10:06

AttilaTheMeerkat · 01/04/2023 09:48

I would urge you not to send this to her as it will be seen by her an an attack on her and will be seized upon accordingly. Messaging her also keep the door of communication open, a door that should remain closed. It is also not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist; the ones that try are the ones who have received the "special training" i;e the now adult children of same.

Radio silence is in itself a powerful response. I would also curtail her methods of being able to contact you by blocking.

Thanks and I absolutely hear you. I think I may get to that stage later but I think I need to make my position clear before getting there. If I stay silent now I fear that the attacks will increase.

flapjackfairy · 01/04/2023 10:14

@Legomum78
I think it is a good message if you want to make your position crystal clear before withdrawing completely.
However the last paragraph is a bit wishy washy and doesn't really make it clear whether you want anything more to do with her or not going forward so I agree that it might just provoke your mum to play the victim even more and perpetuate the dialogue. So it may just see you being sucked back.in again.

briarhill · 01/04/2023 10:15

@Legomum78 , I'm concerned that your drafted letter is too personally revealing and leaves you too vulnerable to her attacks.

Everything we say can and will be used against us.

She can turn around and show your email to everyone as "evidence" that you're the "crazy" person, etc. This would be a gold mine of narcissist supply for her, exactly the kind of reaction she wants to goad out of you.

I would not put out any vulnerable or revealing information at all. Nothing about your mental or emotional health. Just gray rock. Keep it neutral and superficial.

The other option, as @AttilaTheMeerkat pointed out, is radio silence, which would leave you in a stronger position and teach her she can't succeed at getting at you by whiny passive aggressive attacks.

Otherwise, a great neutral, deflecting response could be: "That's so interesting. Why would you say that?" Or "I'm sorry you feel that way." And then go on to blather superficially about the weather or some other neutral subject.

Anyway, stay strong and good luck. Don't feed the parental trolls!

Sicario · 01/04/2023 16:16

@briarhill - I'm sorry but I totally agree with @AttilaTheMeerkat - do not respond. Do not engage.

I was where you are now, and Attila gave me the same advice. I found it hard and a bit <really?> but I went with it, and it was the right way to go. I don't know who Attila is, but I know that the advice to pull up the drawbridge and stop contact was absolutely spot on.

You cannot reason with toxic people. Anything you say to them about your position is used as ammunition against you.

Legomum78 · 01/04/2023 18:26

Thanks all for giving me such good advice, all of which I have taken on board. I completely changed my response, though I did mention mental health, as below:

The nature of our relationship is causing my mental health to deteriorate. I’m not angry and I don’t blame anyone but I need time and space to recover. I will let you know if and when I am ready to discuss our relationship.

I feel calmer already.

Twatalert · 01/04/2023 18:55

Reading up on narcissism it often comes up that they ruin events for others such as birthdays and weddings. I could never relate to it with my mother, but I actually spotted this on a smaller scale.

She ruined her own granddaughters April fools joke she was doing with me. The child was trying to pull my leg with something not true and couldn't wait to tell me 'haha, it's April fools day' but before she could my mother, her grandmother, announced its a joke and was laughing. My niece was distraught but my mother just kept laughing and didn't care it made her sad. Such a vile individual.

Arucanafeather · 02/04/2023 05:34

Hi. Wondering if anyone can help. Made a really stupid decision to have MIL coke to stay after not have her and FIL at our house or having gone to their house for 10 years. FIL died and she had really behaved herself so despite advice from here not to change what has been working - meeting on neutral territory between our houses - I suggested we invited her here as it’s easier for the kids now their teenagers. We’ve been up rowing with each other since 3am. About a photo she took as a starting point. We’re now thinking maybe never again. I feel so sad inside. It damaged us both so much that neither of us can think about how the other one feels and that triggers my own childhood issues where my family never had my back whilst opening declaring how great it was that I always had theirs. It’s what my DH and I used to default to as well, of course. But I’m tired of always being the one that can be relied on to have their back.

GameOfLifer · 02/04/2023 07:42

Legomum78 · 01/04/2023 18:26

Thanks all for giving me such good advice, all of which I have taken on board. I completely changed my response, though I did mention mental health, as below:

The nature of our relationship is causing my mental health to deteriorate. I’m not angry and I don’t blame anyone but I need time and space to recover. I will let you know if and when I am ready to discuss our relationship.

I feel calmer already.

”But what about MY mental health?”

Be prepared for this response and have a think now about some coping mechanisms if/when you get it.

look after yourself x

IAAP · 02/04/2023 14:16

I will just say in my experience it doesn’t actually matter what you text or write or email. They will view it however they wish.
ie your apology wasn’t heartfelt enough or long enough or didn’t address enough issues or didn’t have the right tone.

I spent months literally composing texts and emails and in the end / it was ignored or was touch paper.

Don’t give any reason. No.

Is good enough.
do not discuss any issues you can’t face being used against you.

eg your mental health

Escapingafter50years · 05/04/2023 20:00

@Legomum78 I wish you luck but sadly would recommend you don't hold out any hope of anything positive coming of this. My experience of multiple letters, summarised below, is long, sorry, but illustrates how these people will completely ignore anything but their own needs and wants.

My "mother" who never helped with my kids, but criticised them and my parenting, tipped me over the edge when she told me if I'd been a proper mother she'd have a better relationship with her grandchildren. I have refused to speak with her in person since, and set down a request that the only way we could move forward was for her to reflect on her behaviour, acknowledge it, give a genuine apology and commit to not repeating the behaviour. I explained I was too upset to speak with her so all communication needed to be in writing.

So she left a voicemail, although blocked from my phone, saying she doesn't know why I want an apology from her but she's very sorry.

Then a letter from her saying the silence was killing her (it was ok for her to give me the silent treatment for weeks on end though) and she truly meant when she left me the message that she was so sorry. But she didn't actually apologise! Lots of whining about everybody else had support when we were all stuck at home due to Covid (when I was on the phone daily and having things sent to her online).

I replied, pointing out that she hadn't apologised and showed no interest as to how I was doing, her letter was all about her. Reiterated what I said previously and pointed out some carefully worded things about her behaviour and what an apology actually is, and that I knew this would be a difficult letter for her to read.

Next letter had 2 lines, calling mine a cold unforgiving document.

I replied, saying I understood my letter had been difficult for her to read; I pointed out again that she showed no concern for my wellbeing, but asked her to get help from a therapist, enclosing details of a couple of people or to talk to someone independent like a religious person (she's "religious"). I said this was the first time I could remember asking her to do something for me.

Next letter from her said until the day she dies she'll regret the "remark" she made and didn't know what she could do to get me to forgive her. She couldn't eat or sleep etc.

So I said again I was asking for one thing, for her to speak to a professional who could help her understand what she has done. I needed her to consider did she believe what she said to be true. If so, why? If she didn't believe it, why did she say it.

Next letter ignored all that and asked me to come and see her, she insisted that was the only way to sort things out. Saying her health was deteriorating etc.

So I wrote again saying she still hadn't taken responsibility for what she said, I was seeing a therapist myself so I knew it would be hard for her because she had a traumatic family situation as a teenager, but a therapist or religious person would help her to see the bigger picture in a non-judgemental way. I needed her to understand the effects of what she said and that simply saying the word sorry doesn't work when the behaviour is continually repeated.

(In every letter I included about her saying if I had been a proper mother, and I encouraged her to show the letters to other people. Her family, without having contacted me to see what actually happened, have all sided with her and except for 1 person have cut me off.)

I got my final letter from her then, over a year ago. It started with telling me to stop lying to myself, her and everyone else and denied what she'd said. It complained that she was getting one missive after another from me criticising her like a child. She finished with telling me to leave her alone, she'd had enough.

Over a year later, she's still playing the victim, even though very seriously unwell now. I've had the odd flying monkey get in touch. None of them had the full details. None of them knew she'd told me to leave her alone. But still they mostly think I should forgive and forget and go see her. I keep saying she hasn't told me anything different and I cannot go see her because nothing has changed.

Thankfully I'm off to see my therapist tomorrow, I'm fairly strong in my stance but it's very difficult having to try to unpack what my therapist has helped me recognise is actually a lifetime of narcissistic abuse and extreme emotional neglect. My heart goes out to all of us going through this shit and I believe it is a huge, huge problem. I know for me it was only when my "mother" told me I wasn't a proper mother that the scales finally fell from my eyes. So much time wasted.

Legomum78 · 05/04/2023 22:07

Thank you for such an honest account, Escaping, and for your concern. I believe that only those of us who have been through this or are going through it truly understand how hard it is.

I read every thread on here carefully and have learned so much, as well as what I'm learning in therapy. I know that my narc mum isn't capable of being a normal, loving parent and I don't expect it. My plan is to slip out of the party as quietly as I can. My aim from replying to her email was to get her to back off so that I can have some breathing space. I'm starting to think that the only way I will ever have peace is to step away completely.

It's so validating to know we're not alone. I'm angry for the time I've lost as well as hopeful that the time I have left will be happy and peaceful.

So much love and strength to you all.

X

Escapingafter50years · 06/04/2023 01:05

Thank you @Legomum78 When things really went south, against advice here and in other places, I believed my "mother" would somehow come around.
Now I see that no matter how low I set the bar, it wasn't low enough.
It's very hard to learn that the person who should protect you above all others is prepared to throw you under the bus and watch you be annihilated by family while they apparently successfully play the victim.

I think you're right about the only way to have peace being to step away completely. It seems my "mother" is end of life now (for several weeks!) so the flying monkey activity has been higher than normal. I'm trying to hold myself together because I believe there is an end in sight, with a rotten aftermath to follow. I think her family will want to make me pay for what they think I have done. So the ending will be long and protracted as I bat away the flying monkeys and, with the help of my therapist, this site (which as you point out is so validating), podcasts and Instagram accounts I follow, stay steadfast in my story. This happened to me and no-one has the right to judge me for what is only their opinion as they didn't observe the facts or enquire as to my story. But I know people with no right to judge will judge and I cannot contain the wider spread of their poisonous opinion.

It's so awful, especially when I know my "mother" has them believing she loves me so much and would "do anything" to fix it. I'm not religious but fuck would I love to see her meet her maker.

Best of luck to you at the party, I hope you don't get hurt even more. And I feel so sad that that's the best I can hope for you. Do take care.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 06/04/2023 09:35

I have now set up a new April 2023 well we took you to Stately Homes thread on these Relationship pages as this current one will be full very soon.

Please use the new thread

Happy Easter to you all:)

OP posts:
MonkeyfromManchester · 06/04/2023 09:53

Love to everyone enduring the hell of toxic families.

Ever increasingly I feel my choice to go extremely low contact with my vile mother in law (I see her at Christmas only) has been the best decision of my life (apart from deciding Mr Monkey was the one).

MM has gone increasingly low contact with her. She hates it. Probably as much as she hates me. After thinking she’d got another slave lined up in addition or to replace Slave Son, MM has pushed back and exited.

Her latest is that she can’t get a hair appointment. The hair appointment is to make sure she looks vaguely presentable for MM extended family meal on Easter Monday that she's avowed spitefully she's not going to.

Of course, she’ll go, this is all part of the drama in the run up to any event making what should be fun fraught or just plain horrible.

“I need to wash my hair”
“The carers can do it”
“Yes, they offered that, but I don't want them to”
“Ok, that's your choice. The choice is find a hairdresser or get the carers to do it”

Sulkly silence then:

“I don't see much of you now, son.” nasty laugh.

The nasty laugh is one of the most unpleasant tools in her toolbox as it makes MM remember a childhood when he was the constant butt of family ‘jokes’. It really cuts him.

Does she want him to go round and wash her filthy hair? That's not going to happen. The moment something becomes your responsibility you become emeshed. MM sees all the patterns now.

Also, when hair-gate has happened before, she becomes - suddenly - able to wash her hair at the eleventh hour. Funny that.

She can't bear how things are now increasingly out of her control.

Even Slave Son has started to push back a little. Her pattern is to scream, contradict, nag him and he just sits silently taking it.

“Why aren't you saying anything?”

He actually dared to say to her the other day

“Because you are always shouting and it’s pointless talking to you.”

Considering how he's been battered into submission, this is pretty significant.

The last couple of months have been really hard on Mr Monkey as the bitch has had countless hospital appointments for mild skin cancer on her face. She has made this - unnecessarily - into a huge drama. It could have been treated with an ointment three years ago.

After the appointments became with district nursing rather than the other side of Manchesrer, MM stopped taking her, which became a huge drama.

The latest horrible behaviour had really affected MM, the stress of her and having to use up all his holidays so has had no down time.

He now has very high blood pressure and looks terrible which is a concern. It's so awful to see the physical impact on him.

He knows this shit with his mother is at the root of this. Thank God, his counselling begins in early May.

He's sticking to his guns of not being dragged back into the utter toxic hell of his immediate family.

But we go away this evening for the Easter weekend and then have a week’s holiday when we get back. This will do him so much good.

What he has found incredibly helpful recently is the series on BBC Radio Four Woman’s Hour about narcissistic mothers. Every single episode has had him say “yes, that's what she did”. Do listen to it or share it with people who might not fully understand what you're going through. It's so good.

We’re still fighting and nothing is taking us back into her web.

Thelnebriati · 06/04/2023 11:18

“I don't see much of you now, son.” nasty laugh.
The nasty laugh is one of the most unpleasant tools in her toolbox as it makes MM remember a childhood when he was the constant butt of family ‘jokes’. It really cuts him.

This really stood out for me, its like they all have the same script. The narc makes a comment, thinking they have scored a point. They underline the comment with a tic, and they are oblivious to the fact that the effect is the exact opposite to what they intended.
She really thinks she is making herself look like a victim, whereas in fact she is getting nasty and lashing out so she is sliding into the role of persecutor. (Karpman drama triangle.) So her next move will be to demand someone rescues her, and then she'll be disappointed when that doesn't happen. She moves back into victim, then gets nasty and lashes out...
Its an exhausting merry go round.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 06/04/2023 11:24

Please use the new April 2023 Stately Homes thread set up today as this thread will be full very soon!.

OP posts:
fancyacuppatea · 06/04/2023 12:59

Just closing the thread.
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