"But we took you to Stately Homes" January 2020 onwards

[toomuchtooold]

It's January 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Im scared Im not breaking the cycle. Yes, admittedly I have a much better relationship with my children than I did/do have with her, but I catch myself doing similar things and hate myself for it.

It is very, very important to me I talk through my childrens feelings (as I never had that) but I still feel they might hate me. I drink too much. Not on a massive level but there has been a handful of occasions I've been horrible and I'll never forgive myself.

My mother always tells me how much I'm like her and it terrifies me. She genuinely doesn't realise what she's done. She talks about other parents whose children have anxiety (as I do) and scoffs at how bad they parented their children.

I am so scared my children will come back years from now saying I've life-long damaged them. I am already composing my apologies and hope they forgive me.

First time poster and quite nervous. I have me/CFS which I feel has a lot to do with a having a single mother with depression who was not able to give us any emotional support or nurtering although did make sure we had food to eat and clothes to wear etc. I am now mid 30s with my own children .
I think she is a covert narcissist - she does not display grandiosity and does not think she is amazing instead she plays the victim card constantly.
For example earlier today I had a conversation with her about her knee injury which means she is struggling to get about. I was just sat there listening to her talk about every last detail including how difficult it is to go and do what she wants to do or to walk anywhere. (I haven't been able to walk for more than 10 mins for over 4 years and have never been asked how i feel). Absolutely zero empathy but big "requirement" for me to listen and provide lots of empathy/sympathy. I said "yes I relate to that" and there was silence.
I guess I'm looking to see if anyone else has this kind of mother as I can find a lot of info about more typical narcissism and less about this more victim one. Thank you

Namechange4eva, I understand why you might be concerned about how your children view you, but I honestly believe that the mere fact that you worry about it is absolute proof that you are not like your mother. It's been my biggest worry, and I have done things that my mother did to me. The difference is simple. We know when we have made mistakes and we acknowledge and apologise. My parents have never been wrong about anything, ever and the word sorry has never crossed their lips. We can't be perfect but we can admit our mistakes and not repeat them.

yellowlemon, what a great point! It would actually have been so much easier for them to have let us be ourselves and make some decisions for ourselves, like what sort of hairstyle and clothes we had. It just didn't need to be so full of conflict. They could not accept that I could be different to them in any way. Hence I was treated as evil, defective and mentally ill.

No wonder we were so scared of them.

Started reading 'the book you wish your parents had read'. Really glad to be reading it, but also really starting to feel the effects of 'ripping off the band-aids' and confronting people, gradually.

Lots of memories, and pain coming back to the surface.

Realistically think that I would benefit hugely from therapy, if I had the money and time to do so. Definitely something I need when able.

Told one family member of her comment to me aged 17 that she would 'wash her hands of me' when I passed my driving test. Of course her response was 'I didn't mean it like that!'
Not sure how many ways there are to mean a comment like that.

Guess who gave up learning to drive after that. Because she was the only stability in my life at that time. I needed her more than I think she could ever understand. And already had huge fears of abandonment at that age, and still do now.

So much more to say but scared to. Its so hard even anonymously on a thread like this.

@Dippydog Different = bad in their world. That's what also helped me realise she was a narc. She was totally incapable of seeing the world through anyone else's eyes but her own.

@Bohoboo Hi and welcome. Many of us have parents who were covert narcs so you'll find lots of support and understanding on here. I think in a way they're the worst kind as it's just not obvious. I relate to the victim mentality, the never being concerned about how anyone else is feeling, and the long boring monologues as she described in great detail mundane things that happened to her.

Have a read through the threads, vent, and ask questions, and there are some books and podcasts that people have found useful too.

@Dippydog Yes - different = bad in their world.

I remember my mother pontificating to someone how I was just like her and would get married later in life.

I was about 12 at the time.

Thank you Dippydog. I feel at the moment I am only just processing how much it really has affected me. I honestly thought I was fine, even used to say I was glad because it made me the person I am. Was the only one out my siblings to maintain a relationship, even guilt tripped them 'because she's our Mum'. Dealing with it is causing issues in my own family as my DP doesn't like them because of whats happened (this was well before I even said I was bothered, I stuck up for them and didn't like how he spoke about them. I told him they tried their best, they have theie own problems and no one is perfect.

We've actually fallen out again through it and he's left for the night because I had a massive go at him. IT's such a complex relationship with parents and he doesn;t understand because he has a very close relationship with both parents.

I remember all the times searching for a mothers day card trying to find one without all the flowery poems because I would be lying. I've never got everyone saying 'my mum is my best friend'. It never bothered me before but I'm feeling it now. My sister is NC with her and my brother is very limited after being NC for 8 years. I feel very alone when it comes to situations others turn to their parents for.

I can so relate to everything you've said about the mothers day cards, and feeling alone. Its making me really consider going no contact, because realistically any contact I do have, is just me trying to keep the peace. I've never felt about to talk to mum or call on her for support.

Mother's Day cards - an absolute minefield. For a start my mother didn't like 'Mother's Day' - it's Mothering Sunday. So woe betide you if you sent a card with Mother's Day on it. Of course that cut the choice down by 99% I couldn't do the poems either or anything with a nice message in it.

When I went LC I used to buy a blank card with a flower or something on it and just write a neutral message in it. This year I won't have to go through that little performance for her.

Wow. I think I've just realised that my Mum is a covert narcissist! Ive always known she was difficult, controlling, emotionally stunted, self absorbed etc but didn't think she fitted the narcissistic criteria. Until now.

My DM does exactly what Boohoos Mum does. She has a few minor mobility issues. I believe these are genuine, however she won't see the GP or do anything to improve them. She just complains about them constantly, if we go anywhere she will moan all the time that her legs, knees back etc hurt. Over xmas she developed what I think sounds like carpel tunnel or tendonitis in her hand, once again she won't do anything about it. Just goes on about how sore it is. Will get very defensive when I tentively suggest a visit to the GP (both conditions are very easily treated ffs). She has zero empathy as well, very little interest in anyone else. Has never asked me how im feeling, but will expect me to listen to her droning on.

Ive also noticed that when people talk to her about something going on in their lives, or thats important to them her eyes will sort of glaze over and she will stare blankly. She has no interest in other people whatsover does she?

@ManonBlackbeak it's a massive eye-opener when you realise because all those weird behaviours that didn't make sense do now when you realise that the whole world revolves around her.

No, she won't have any interest in others, unless they can in some way make her feel good.

When my mother has conversations she either has a blank stare, gets distracted by something else, or stares at them with this sort of weird pained expression on her face. It's quite hard to describe but it's a really odd look and not something I've ever seen before.

When I used to visit I started to realised she never actually listened to me. I could actually stop speaking half way through a sentence and she wouldn't even notice. It became a bit of a game I used to play with myself to see how obvious I could be. One of the few games I'd win almost every time with her.

Its hard to explain Yellowlemon. She will still be facing whoever she is talking to, but her eyes are not focussed on them. They are sort of dead and glassy. Like she's zoned out. I don't think for one second she is taking anything they are saying to her in.

Also, is trying to outdo your children's in laws related to this kind of stuff? DM seems to constantly be trying to outdo bu DB's in laws(lovely people). They buy something she has to buy something etc.

I mentioned a while back that, after a lifetime of hating cooking, she suddenly started presenting them with tupperware boxes of left over Sunday lunch. I think its because DB's FIL is a trained cook and will often give them stuff if he makes too much. Things like pies and pastries etc.

WTF is that all about?

will be very defensive when I tentatively suggest a visit to the GP
Manon, on it sounds as if she would fall into the category which HG Tudor on (YouTube) describes as 'victim narcissists'?
Her health issues are leavers that she can pull on to elicit sympathy and to control people with, the last thing she wants to do is go to the doctor and have them cured, they're much too useful for that🤣😅

I realised just how bad I am at expressing my needs and wants when I was with one of my best friends at the weekend, somebody I would class as a sister. We were shopping and I was just following her around. A few times there were certain displays I wanted to look at or shops I wanted to go in and I found myself hoping and praying that she would walk over to those displays or suggest we should go into that particular shop. I would love when she went to try things on as it meant I had five minutes to quickly whiz around the shop and look where I wanted to. It is so silly, I was observing myself doing it and realising how ridiculous it was, yet I couldn't stop.

I have been thinking through why I am like that. I have quite a few siblings and they all require a lot of my mum's attention for various reasons like autism, health issues, problems at college, etc. I have learnt to have to be the one with no problems that they can forget about so attention can be focussed on the others. I remember at 3 being told "please don't stress me out, I am stressed enough with your baby sister", and that type of thing happened to me all the time. My Mum did pretty much all of the parenting so it just left her with no attention or time to give me. Then my Dad is narcissistic so just was not interested in me, I would never ever ever have sat and told him about what happened at school or anything like that. He would not have even pretended to be interested so I just never bothered.

Please help.... I Just FINALLY told my Narc mother about the abuse I suffered as a child from my Dad (they were still married up until his death 9 years ago) and she doesn't believe me.....

It actually slipped out during a phone call argument where I was BEGGING her for emotional support (as I'm struggling with my daughter's recent ASD diagnosis and I'm a single parent) I couldn't help it, it just came out.

She said "Well he's dead now, you could say anything about him"

Apparently I'm "Disgusting and vile"

I am a mess.

I believe you Broken2020. I am so sorry you had this to deal with in your upbringing and that you don’t have support from your M for your adult life. She has no idea how anyone else feels and you shouldn’t beat yourself up for letting it out when you are in so much need of support.

Thankyou @homebird

It doesn't help that I don't have anybody else. No friends and she is brilliant with my daughter (so loving & caring would you bloody believe?!) and so I can't walk away from her.

My daughter has no other family at all. Just my mother & I.

I have disabilities and cannot cope without my Mum having my child once a week.

I'm trapped in the abuse

Hi @Broken2020 I’m so very sorry you’re feeling so isolated and vulnerable. Telling your mother such a painful secret and getting rejected like that is a dreadful blow.

You can contact napac.org for some help with with csa issues.

Is your daughter very young? Are you a single parent? I know it all feels hopeless right now but things do change.

Broken I'm so sorry that you are in this situation💐
if you can, try and switch off from your mother, if you try and engage with her she will only cause you more pain.
Please try and get some real life support to help you process what has happened and help you to see the way forward.
Your mother knows that you can't cope without her she has engineered this by making such a pet of your daughter
She is able to be cruel to you because she knows she has you trapped there, you will have to be strategic, this is a very very painful thing to deal with you need proper support and help.

Broken

Your mother (and she is not worthy of the term) was not a good parent (and that is a massive understatement) to you when you were growing up and she has not fundamentally altered since that time. She is the disgusting and vile one here, not you. You're very much the adult child of a narcissist and she will continue to break you and in turn your child.

The best thing you can do for your child is to keep your mother well away from her. You do not need your mother in your lives. Narcissistic grandparent figures are deplorably bad and your mother is basically using your DD as a form of narcissistic supply. She will "love" your DD but as she ages and develops a mind of her own, she will be stamped on emotionally. She could use your DDs heart and mind to steal her away from under your very nose; this must not happen.

NAPAC are good here and could help you re the abuse.

What support do you yourself receive re your disabilities?.

Broken is it the case that your mother has deliberately isolated you to make you completely dependent on her?
you have described your mother as a narc, so you are aware that she is not right, you must protect yourself from her, any vulnerability that you show to her she will exploit it to get power and control over you.
During the telephone conversation you made yourself vulnerable and she went straight for the jugular she is a Predator, she makes a pet of your daughter on purpose to give her more power over you.

That’s a good point @Ulterego makes, has your DM managed your like so you’ve lost contact with people? Does your DD not have any other relatives you’re in touch with?

Do you get out at all? It’s time to start planning some small steps to find your community, for your sake and that of your DD.

Life not like!

@Broken2020 really sorry for what you're going through.

Words can really cut deep, especially when you've tried to express yourself and be honest about your feelings.