"But we took you to Stately Homes" January 2020 onwards

[toomuchtooold]

It's January 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
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July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
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Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
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Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Has anyone else ever felt like they were happier in blissful ignorance? I know this is probably the FOG coming back since my mother got diagnosed with terminal cancer a few weeks ago, but I feel like I've been carrying around this huge burden ever since I 'saw the light', wrapped up in a whole load of hurt and resentment.

I know, logically, that it's much better to understand the past and work on healing from it. I know that's the healthy thing to do. But it's really hard sometimes, because now I know the reality of everything I missed out on and the damage it has done to me. I feel like I'm constantly seeing normal happy families around me and it's like a slap in the face.

In my case, I never really saw my parents as deliberately abusive, more damaged and inadequate. I didn't suffer the kind of abuse many on this thread did, and for much of my teen years and 20s my mother was more mellow, so it was easy to pretend everything was ok. I was happy during this time. The shit hit the fan the year I turned 30, with mum's behaviour getting worse, me 'seeing the light' and my long term boyfriend dumping me (and me having no family home to go back to) all in the space of a year. That was a few years ago but I feel like I've never recovered and I've gone from being a pretty optimistic person to a deeply pessimistic one.

Not sure if I'm really asking for advise or anything, just finding myself feeling like shit quite a lot these days.

so it was easy to pretend everything was ok

I did that for a long long time, Cherrycee, and it seemed so much easier sometimes because on the surface, I had an almost reasonable relationship with my mother and a closer one with my father. I felt like part of a family, even though I knew my family was odd (said as much to my DH when we first met).

It was an illusion, of course.

The reality is that underneath the surface, I was paddling madly to keep everything as calm as possible. Second guessing, monitoring and censoring my own words so as to remove any possibility of unwarranted offence, hiding my opinions, minimising my own feelings, putting myself second or third or last, ignoring my own wishes and needs - all in the hope of maintaining a tricky relationship that gave nothing back. And despite all my efforts, it still wasn't enough.

I do find it hard to see happy families around me. I don't begrudge them. It's more of a yearning to be part of it all. But the fact is that I am now more open about what I will and will not do, what I will and will not accept, because without my dysfunctional parents or two of my siblings in my daily life, I can be honest.

Is the emotional burden worth it, just for a quiet life? Everyone will have their own view but for me, the answer is no, not worth it at all. I am sad at times but I'm also not silently screaming inside - and that's something I used to do a lot.

@Cherrycee it’s completely understandable and relatable. I wonder how you coped before though, did you internalise all the bad things? Keep trying harder to make people happy, did you minimise your needs?

People often stay in abusive problematic relationships because they know where they are and what to expect. It’s a very weird form of ‘safety’ based on low self worth.
You’ve done a huge amount of work on getting out of the bad relationship, but now you need to find out what you do want in your life. What do you like? Who do you want to be? I’m in this place a bit myself, I’m looking at all the roads not taken because of fear, and wondering what my next move is.

Find a purpose, but put yourself in the centre of your life. Scary, but really really crucial.

Thanks SingingLily, you're right that it was just an illusion and trying to keep up the appearance of normality was exhausting.

Is the emotional burden worth it, just for a quiet life?

This is an interesting way to put it actually, as I've often felt exasperated at my dad for choosing the quiet life, in spite of all the damage it would cause.

Sometimes I just can't see myself getting to the other side and becoming an optimistic person again. I want to be happy but it feels so hard to overcome all the negative stuff from the last few years. I suppose when mum goes there will be a kind of freedom, but of course I feel guilty for thinking that.

Thanks Herocomplex, it's true that in my 'happier' years I still had problems, but for some reason they didn't feel as big. Looking back I had major issues around relationships and trust, and the person I finally let in was an emotionally unavailable manchild. I totally get what you're saying about the feeling of safety in these situations, even those it's false. I stayed in that crappy relationship for seven years, til he dumped me.

I definitely want to find some kind of purpose but it's hard to know where to start. I suppose a lot of us are in this position.

@Cherrycee I can totally identify with your post. I'm 9 months into unpicking my dysfunctional family relationships in therapy. It's incredibly hard and painful.

I often feel a pull towards the comfort of how oblivious I used to be, particularly in relation to my mum. But then I think I'm mourning for a past that wasn't true/real/genuine/healthy.

I think a helpful thing might be to think a bit smaller in terms of goals for how you are/live. It’s possibly not a reasonable expectation to feel happy and optimistic right now. Could you feel ok with that for a while?

You’ve spent all your life with other people making your emotional weather, it’s bound to feel very empty until you learn how to do it for yourself.

A friend of mine had ‘tapping’ therapy when her relationship broke down. She found it very helpful. Maybe look into having some kind of therapy or therapeutic experience that helps you to move forward?

I don’t mean you should be unhappy and pessimistic by any means, but there are points in between. Sort of neutrality, just for now.

@Lemon27 Hi - just been reading your posts and I sympathise. The constant disapproval and game playing, the control and manipulation - not how good parents behave.

Your point about expecting to be treated with gratitude and respect just because they are parents rings so true.

A few years ago my mother sent a flying monkey telling me that my mother just wanted to be my friend (I'd been very LC for quite a while).

Assuming she did then she clearly didn't understand that friendships develop over time through feelings of care, trust, concern, love, fun etc etc and nobody in their right mind would choose to be friends with a domineering, controlling, person supposedly devoid of emotions.

You need to protect yourself now. It does feel weird, but they have nothing to offer you.

God, the idea of being my mother’s friend. I don’t think she has ever said anything positive about anyone she knows, she either pities them and they are the recipients of her charity, or their character faults are discussed at length. I’m not sure which is worse.

I haven't even read through this full post but I'm already grateful for it. I am some contact with my mum and dad (albeit separately as they have not been together for some time) and i have always been the child (out of 3) that was overly understanding. I feel bad pressurising my younger siblings through the years because I carried the guilt being the eldest. Not normal all this time being 'reasonable' I now feel hate that I've never experienced before. Should I start my own thread? Sometimes I dont think I would care if they died. I want to feel something but cant. Im scared my children will feel the same about me.

My mother always needed to be 'my best friend'.
Drummed into me the importance of LOYALTY.
Sadly she was no friend to me (not that 'friends' is a healthy mother/child relationship anyway), she was not loyal to me, quite the oppostie. Meanwhile I had been groomed and brainwashed to be loyal to her.

Been thinking a lot lately about how utterly fucked up all the teachings about 'love' were. :(

I'm also wondering. The scapegoat/golden child thing. I can't place me/my sibling in those categories. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

Really struggling with words, daring to communicate, etc. I apologise. Thanks all for your presence, wishing all the best for 2020 and on for evryone.

By the way thanks to those who have suggested Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. I've got the audiobook now and can see it will be a very helpful addition to my mini-library!

Hi @namechange4eva no need to start a thread unless you really want to, you can post pages of your thoughts here if you need it. There’s no rules.
It’s very hard when you first begin to see what’s happened. Take your time. Welcome 💐

A lot of people here would completely understand your feelings about the death of your parents. Sometimes it feels like it’s the only way you would be free of their influence. A life of fear and lovelessness has an effect on you.

I apologise
there's nothing to apologize for LongDarkBlues
Drummed into me the importance of LOYALTY
but she forgot the bit about loyalty needing to be earned no doubt!
We've been there....
'but I'm your mum'
(and she thinks that's a fitting way for a mother to treat her daughter....!?)
time to turn the tables on them, see how they like it:)

Thanks Ulterego I appreciate it

I still keep feeling like she never really had a chance, though. Even as I feel so angry and disgusted with her. She is definitely scapegoat out of her and her sibling. She had a very damaging childhood. Yet here's a thread with so many with toxic childhoods and somehow they learn to see outside of themselves and work to make changes and heal. What's the difference? Where/when should personal responsibility come into it?

I was always lumbered with so much responsibility. For other people's feelings, moods, actions, as well as for my own.

Is someone like my mum devoid of guilt, or totally drowning in it?
I understand now that her empathy is extremely impaired. She acts both like she loves hersefl and hates herself. I always tried to help. I thought one day she's understand. I thought she ciuldnt help the things she did. Thought | could help her to help herself.
Nobody helped me. Nobody helps me. I'm the one asked for help.
I feel exploited.
I have been exploited.
I tried to move forward with my sibling recently and I thought it was a good thing, could be healing for us both, but they have so many similarities to mum wrt lack of empathy, boundary-violations, temper, always right, entitled and exploitative, alcoholic ..
they stole from me last time thy came. I can't even bring it up with them becasue there's no point. Last time they asked me for help I said /no for the first time. They've not responded which is good because I want to put distance between us! But also I feel terrible for them, what chance have they had either? And they are younger than me.
I dont want to abandon them, but I don't want to be exploited anymore.

So desperately wish things were different. If only noone was abused, if only noone was abusive. If only everyone had loving healthy parents. Things never had to be this fucked up, did they? At other times it feel like it was inevitable. I don't know what to think,

By the way I have already 'abandoned' my mum. NC nearly 2 years.

I dont want to abandon them, but I don't want to be exploited anymore
I understand why you feel like that but dont think it should be seen as abandonment, you are just removing yourself from their messy lives, maybe that will jolt them into doing something about themselves.
It's not down to you to fix them, it would be damaging to you to try and your first duty is to yourself, you have to shore yourself up and protect yourself.
No one should allow themselves to be exploited, you owe it to yourself not to let others take advantage.

As to why....who can say, I think with people who are volatile it can be impulse control, much is stored away in the unconscious mind and not accessible by the conscious mind, mostly people rationalize their behaviour.
My very volatile mother once said something like 'I dont know why I'm so horrible' but that was the closest thing to an admission, if anything the more wrong she was the more she acted like she was totally justified..... cant back down, can only double down
Idk, I search my brain and it comes back with 'she's just a fucking bitch'
So desperately wish things were different. If only noone was abused, if only noone was abusive. If only everyone had loving healthy parents. Things never had to be this fucked up, did they? At other times it feel like it was inevitable. I don't know what to think
I know
I know
I dont really know what to think either, in my case I also feel it was inevitable, I cant see that my parents could have been any other way and so I cant see that things could have been different for me.
The people that you speak about sound very personality disordered, very dysfunctional, possibly only professional help would make any kind of dent, maybe they will find their way to it.
It's good that youve been able to cut loose from your Mum LongDarkBlues

It’s possibly not a reasonable expectation to feel happy and optimistic right now. Could you feel ok with that for a while?

That's a fair point hero. I do have a tendency to try to fix things immediately and probably get stressed when it's not possible to do that.

I'm also wondering. The scapegoat/golden child thing. I can't place me/my sibling in those categories. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

LongDarkBlues In some cases the roles get swapped between children quite frequently. Or maybe your mother isn't a narc but has some other kind of personality disorder or illness.

But then I think I'm mourning for a past that wasn't true/real/genuine/healthy.

That is true Allthehippos, kind of scary to acknowledge at times but true.

It's possibly not a reasonable expectation to feel happy and optimistic right now
I'm also on-board with that🙂
when times are difficult I will settle into being a bit gloomy and a bit pessimistic, it's not my favourite state to be in but it's stable and I think in many ways stability and routine are fundamental things that we need, and you try and find some little indulgences to prop you up here and there, tread water for a while, just to get on an even keel.
Maybe there's a wave with your name on it and you'll get to ride it one day 🌊🧜🌊

Incidentally it was the work of HG Tudor that first help me to understand what a narcissist is and what's going on with them, if you search for him on YouTube you might find his videos useful, for me they were a good way in at the very least
He is melodramatic though 🙄 imo

She acts both like she loves hersefl and hates herself.

I think you have put your finger on it, LongDarkBlues. She is too busy struggling with her self-image to take any notice of those around her, including her own children - and their only purpose is to reflect her wonderfulness (the role of golden child) or to take the blame when she hates herself (the role of the scapegoat). It's all about everyone else regulating her ups and downs all the time. Nothing else matters.

As Cherrycee says, it is entirely possible to be both golden child and scapegoat, depending on what her needs are at any given moment, hence the push-pull dynamic.

As for personal responsibility, my view is quite clear. My mother had a difficult childhood. She stored up rage about that and chose to take it out on her own children. And let's be clear - that was her choice. Rather than face her demons herself, she saved them all up and inflicted them on her own children. She is a weak and selfish woman.

My DSis and I had a difficult childhood too. DSis is trying with all her might to break the cycle (her exact words) and to bring up her children to feel loved and safe. She struggles with it, not knowing what a good mother looks like, but she is determined to be one. That is her choice.

I didn't have children because I couldn't bear the thought that any child of mine would suffer the lonely miserable childhood I had. So conditioned was I that it never occurred to me until too late that it didn't have to be that way. I regret that now. However, that was my choice.

We always have a choice.

Remember that next time you are tempted to feel sorry for them.

Singinglily and longdarkblues, I think that you have both summed up everything so well. It's always been so confusing - my mother always moaned about what a poor soul she was, so shy and timid and lacking in self confidence. And yet she always believed she was absolutely right and perfect about everything. And look out anyone who said differently!

I remember an occasion where my mother came home with a slightly different hairstyle to usual. M and F said I should have the same style because it was so lovely. I was eleven, and M was very old fashioned, despite being very young. Because I said I didn't want her hairstyle, my mother went berserk and beat me, and demanded my F join in. He did.

Someone with normal parents would have just said it was very nice, and conversation would move on, no problem. But for my mother, with no self esteem or confidence, or sense of self really, that wasn't good enough. I had to want to be like her. And I was genuinely terrified of being given this old lady hairstyle because I had absolutely no say in how I looked. If they decided I had to look like an old lady, that's how I would have looked. As it was, I looked like a boy. I always had very short hair because my parents liked girls with short hair. I hated it and it set me apart throughout school.

When DD was about six, she said she wanted to grow her hair, especially as people said how much she looked like me. I said immediately that of course she could. Now in her twenties, she still has long hair and it is very important to her. We have a lovely, supportive relationship.

We are all doing such a great thing in breaking the cycle. It's a shame our parents didn't do it for us.

@Dippydog - your first paragraph sums up my mother exactly.

She was desperate to be admired and worshipped by everyone. Of course adults could see she had no redeeming features that warranted admiration. She's not talented, smart, kind, or funny etc. So the only way she could get someone worshipping her was through fear and control. So there you have this pathetic woman with a bloody big god-complex.

It's why I didn't realise she was a narc for ages. Someone asked me ages up thread when I started to realise. And I remember now. I googled something like 'is it normal to be scared of your parents when you're an adult'. And it sent me down this rabbit hole till I eventually ended up here!

And I relate to the hair. I had the most awful haircut when I was a child. She either cut it herself or took me to her hairdresser which specialised in doing perms and blue-rinses.

When I left home one of the first things I did was go to a 'trendy' hairdresser and get a proper haircut and highlights. I felt so out of place though - it took me years and years to actually enjoy going to the hairdressers and being fussed over by people who actually cared about making me feel good.

It's amazing how they manage to fuck up even the most basic of things.