"But we took you to Stately Homes" January 2020 onwards

[toomuchtooold]

It's January 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

The madness of it all , the learned behaviour etc

My mother has had such an influence that my sister is repeating this behaviour with her daughter now , I watch from a distance unable to communicate this to her as I am the last person she would listen to

My mother used to slate her father off in front of us as kids and berate him to the point we thought he was terrible as well

She is now repeating this with her in laws with my niece and probably me as well

MarmadukeM, I had EMDR nearly two years ago. It was hard going, and I wasn't convinced at the time, that it had helped me.

Over time, however, I began to think it had indeed changed the way I was thinking about, and dealing with childhood trauma. I think, in combination with other treatments, it played a part in my overall improvement.

I hope very much that you benefit to. Happy to talk about it more.

I am so grateful for this thread and all the lovely posters who have given me advice (I have had a few name changes to minimise how outing my posts are).

I feel like the last few months have been exhausting as it feels like my entire foundation of my life, personality and viewpoints have been shifting from underneath me. It gives me hope because I feel like I am processing things that I have been repressing without realising. I have been more tuned in to how I am feeling and I have realised how often I think I feel ok only to "tune in" to my body to find that I am completely anxious with a racing heart. I have noticed whenever I hear my Dad come home or I hear his voice I get anxious. I have noticed that whenever I hear a raised voice or a loud noise like someone dropping something my heart drops. I feel like I must have been completely tuning that out and ignoring it up until now.

I was wondering whether anyone has any recommendations for resources (books, podcasts, websites, Youtube videos) that they found helpful to heal themselves from the effects of narcissism. I have already read the websites in the OP and found them really useful. Thank you.

@rosebouquets have you seen Richard Grannon's stuff on Youtube? He's not everyone's cup of tea but in 2016/17 he did some good podcast type discussions exactly about recovering from narcissistic abuse, emotional literacy (exactly that stuff you are talking about, being more open to and aware of your emotions) and complex PTSD.

@rosebouquets I am listening to 'adult children of emotionally immature parents' and finding that really helpful xx

Also 'complex ptsd from surviving the thriving' by Pete walker is very good x

@dippydog that's good to hear, that it may be helpful. What did you find hard going about it? Rightly how many seasons did you do? I'm having it to reduce the fear I have of my stepfather by addressing some stuff that happened when I was little and he threatened me and was occ a bit violent x

Checking in if I may?

I went very LC with my mum las Feb. I had some huge personal problems in November (following a call from my golden brother to support mum with a health crisis) and my mum swept in assuming control and taking over. My MH continued to nosedive as a result of her assuming she could just turn up and take care of everything - eg she asked what I needed, I asked her to clean my kitchen, she cleaned and reorganised the contents of my cupboards whilst the counter tops and floor was still piled up, and I'm made to feel guilty for not being super grateful.

Christmas she went to golden brother's and has been used for childcare but cant/won't see that. Brother and sil have slagged her off constantly despite their inability to organise their own childcare.

She called a couple of times over the holidays and I managed to dodge one call, the second I ended by hanging up as she started the guilt trip.

I need to tell her I can't have her back in my life. My cousins tell me I should give her another chance but I really cannot allow my MH to suffer again.

Thanks for the vent

Hi Strongerthan 😊
You deserve peace of mind and good mental health 💛
do you think you could transition from low contact to no contact by stealth i.e. without actually announcing it, or would you be happier issuing a statement of some sort?

Checking in to the new page. Happy new year everyone. I don't really have anything to say, I'm processing lots of stuff in my head and I've got a couple of books to read that I hope are going to straighten my head out in 2020.

Hi all I’ve read these threads for a long time as a lurker. Tonight I feel like a fully fledged member.

My DM is a lovely woman but a complete and utter doormat to my gruff, moany and utterly dominant and unpleasant DF. For context, neither of them speak with either of their families for reasons we were all told (and now realise as kids we should never have been spoken to in such depth about) but ultimately the common theme is in dealing with my DF.

I have several siblings the eldest of which is the token golden child. I can’t say I had a very happy childhood, not physical abuse but definite mental abuse and almost neglect. Since I’ve grown up and moved out I’ve tried to foster a ‘normal’ relationship with them. I find it hard to identify with or applaud anything about how they live.

Fast forward to now and I have one DS. Since he was born they were very interested in him and to be fair seem to love him very much. My DM offered to mind him once a week when I went back to work and has done so since, he’s now 2.5, with my DF arriving over on those days not that he really seems to assist in childcare but at least he sees him.

Myself and my other siblings had a massive row with the golden child back in the summer. He is a self centered twat who has gone too far this time. My parents have tried to intervene on several occasions to be told by us it was nothing to do with them and to leave well enough alone.

I’m not sure what has changed but my Nazi-like DF (through my DM) demanded we go to their house this weekend to discuss something but would not say what. We all refused if it was to do with them trying to interfere in this row on the eldest behalf, and therefore did not go.

This has created WW3. They have now told me in no uncertain terms they won’t be minding my DS anymore, which is what is upsetting me most as he is losing out on that relationship which was much better than what I had as a child. I am now stuck for the day per week until I can secure alternative childcare and will have to try work something out.

It’s as if everything has come to a head and I can’t believe they want to fall out over a row that wasn’t even with them. I feel the bigger issue is my DF throwing a demand / summons that we all go over to be given his decree but we all said no. From childhood he used to rule with fear but seems to forget we are all adults now and don’t have to bow to him.

I tried to call my DM today to discuss it but she shouted at me (under my DF eye, he has had her phone all day which I know by the replies ‘she’ has sent to messages, and answered when I called) and then hung up.

I don’t even know why I’m posting, I’m just upset and desperately sad that it’s come to this but at the same time think it’s always been heading this way.

I feel like I might contact a counsellor to discuss as I have access to one through employee assistance at work but for now it’s like things are starting to click into place about my parents rows they told us about with their families years ago - looks like they are the common denominator and I suppose maybe this was inevitable.

I find it hard to believe they are willing to discard a large chunk of their immediate family for the sake of the golden child though

@Lemon27 counselling could be useful, I agree. I did a number of sessions with my mum (and also on my own) where we discussed the golden child. She still refuses to see it though, and this is one of the reasons I'm very LC with her. My counsellor has been very good at supporting me through that.

Lemon27, this is a blessing in disguise. Your father was toxic to you when you were a child and later when you were growing up, and your mother - however lovely she might be in other ways - stood by while he terrorised you and allowed it to happen. He hasn't changed. Neither has she.

Your DS is just 2.5 years old. What are the chances that your father is just as toxic around him on the days when your mother offers childcare? I'm sorry to say this but the chances are very high indeed. At such a young age, your DS won't always know or understand why an adult would behave like your father does but children grow so fast and take in so much that it's just a matter of time.

Parents like your father and my mother find little children tolerable because they are malleable. However, once a child is old enough to notice and question, old enough to know what they like and definitely don't like, when they start to have opinions and dare to express them, the dynamic changes. And not for the better.

I'm sorry to say this but I would be keeping your father well away from your DS - and your doormat of a mother too, because she can't be trusted to keep your little boy safe. That alternative childcare is a must.

And would your parents be willing to discard most of the family for the sake of GC brother? Oh yes. If the rest of you don't fall into line and do as you are told. The responsibility for their decision, you see, will be dumped on you. Because you didn't jump to do whatever what your father deemed best.

If you can access counselling through work, it's worth exploring.

StrongerThanIThought, your cousins can say what they like. They don't have to cope with having such a mother. You do. You must do whatever it takes to protect your mental health and emotional wellbeing - and that means keeping your distance.

I am concerned that your mother was allowed by the therapist to attend joint sessions with you. That's never a good idea. A school would never allow the class bully and the class victim to be counselled together. It would contravene all safeguarding standards. This is the same thing.

@lemon27 what you are describing is very similar to my parents behaviour, and yeah, it is hard to understand. I haven't got the same circumstances as you but the pattern of behaviour is scarily similar but then I suppose it's the standard modus operandi of the personality disordered individual. The best thing to do really is accept they will never change and then see what level of involvement with them you can cope with. For me, it's none. I would recommend reading 'adult children of Emotionally Immature Parents' and you might get a better understanding of what you are up against xx

Hi @Lemon27 you seem to be quite clear-thinking about this situation, and I think you’re doing very well to not be manipulated by them.
As the others have said your parents are emotionally immature, they can’t deal with nuance or the fact that you’re adults. It’s really sad, you’ve clearly tried hard to have some sort of relationship with them but they’re just not capable of it.

If you do decide to have counselling make it very clear to your therapist that you are working on your self and your wellbeing, not in order to repair Dysfunctional family relationships.

I think it may have done your DS a favour, your DM may love him but the relationship with your DF would not be beneficial to him.

MarmadukeM , I had somewhere between 15 to 20 sessions. Funded by the NHS. I was sceptical about it. We went right back to very early events, often things I didn't fully remember, but were stories that were then told repeatedly by my parents, to show what an awful baby/toddler I was. It was based around the messages I had received from my parents, that I was bad, defective, ungrateful, even at such a young age.
My mother was very violent to me for as long as I can remember, so I suspect it started very young.

It was very hard to relive the memories. Lots of crying, and an increase in the all over body pain I had had for years. I also had to face up to the way in which my defences had harmed me and others over the years.

It seems like the traumatic memories are moved to the past, where they belong, and new statements are programmed in. Things like 'I am worthy of love " and " I am strong ".

Now I can remember my childhood and although it's still very sad, I accept that it is in the past and I understand what happened to me. It lessened the guilt and sadness of NC and allowed me to move on from the past.

I hope very much that you benefit from the treatment and would like to hear how you get on.

Thanks@Dippydog . It sounds like it was really emotionally draining for you. But ultimately a positive experience, which is good 😀. I'm sorry you had such an awful childhood. It sounds, from what you are describing, like it is exactly what I need. Yeah I will definitely let you know how I get on with it. X

Lemon what everyone else said, yes it is a blessing in disguise, you must stand up to them, don't back down
Take control, block the bastards, who needs them anyway.

Lemon
Your parents are blackmailing you, using your child as a bargaining chip, this is not the behaviour of a kind parent.
Your father will likely just get worse as he gets older, his need to be in control of everything will increase, this world war3 response is designed to intimidate you and bring you back under the yoke of their control. You are a sovereign adult, they have no authority over you, I would suggest that you do not leave yourself exposed to them at all, do not be in a position where you need them for anything because they will use everything they can to get leverage over you.

Thanks so much for the replies, I just feel sick today and am in work trying not to cry when I think about it.

@SingingLily I agree he is toxic. He literally only ever has disapproval for anything / anyone and myself and my other siblings were going back over separate times we all remember from our childhood that we were made feel like shit by him, we all have several examples. You’re right on him being possibly toxic to DS too, he definitely encourages him to behave or do certain things he knows I wouldn’t want, and when he was a newborn because he smoked I told him he couldn’t be around him for at least 30 mins after a cigarette (outside) and he had to wash hands etc etc - I was made to feel like a weirdo and I’m convinced he would deliberately have one in the car coming over with my DM so to ‘get one up on me’ so I couldn’t definitively say when the 30 mins ended.

That’s it - It’s like in his mind he had kids to have servants/subservients and yes then couldn’t handle when said servants grow up and move out and don’t have to follow orders anymore. He used to be like a nazi dictator while we lived at home it was genuinely a terror thing and he enjoyed knowing we were afraid of him. Everyday things like us asking him for a lift as kids even when it was to collect/drop us off at activities or other stuff at night for safety reasons (my DM doesn’t drive and he’s never encouraged it as that would give her independence) was just not done as it wasn’t worth it (blank refusal / done with incredibly bad grace and told ‘this is the last time’ / sitting in silence for the journey).

We’ve all agreed that both of them have this misplaced sense that we owe them a debt of gratitude and respect and treat them as perhaps they see their acquaintances being treated by their respective kids, all because they are our parents and never mind that we grew up despite them and not because of them if that makes sense?

@MarmadukeM thank you for that - I’ll go look up that book now. They (my DF and by default my DM as she can’t think or act for herself) definitely act like children when something doesn’t go the way they think it should.

@Ulterego you’re right. They haven’t contacted my other siblings to rant at them as the siblings haven’t initiated contact.

The start of the rant to me was yesterday morning when I sent my DM a txt asking her was she ok and saying this demanding summons was not going to work as we told her we are not discussing the situation between us and the golden child with them. She ignored me all day so I asked then why she was ignoring me and if so did I need to make alternative childcare arrangements to which she (he) responded (almost instantly) with aggressive one line answers saying that I had decided that for myself and she won’t be coming over. When I then phoned my DM mobile, my DF answered acting normal but sounded smug (he loves this shit) and handed it to my DM after asking who it was (my caller ID would have shown up)

It probably was like they felt they could blackmail me as I’m the one that had to contact them to find out what the story was on childcare. There was a comment included in the angry responses that all of us were asked to go over and we didn’t show them respect enough to show up (even though we told them we were not going if it was to discuss the golden child situation and they would not say it was not about that). So they are prob itching for my other siblings to contact them also to vent at them but there’s no immediate need for them to.

Even writing all this out is helping but I’m still so teary and can’t believe it’s actually happening. Thanks again for all responses.

Lemon Sorry to hear what you are going through. I can relate to having one difficult parent and one weak enabler, who also does their bidding. My parents were also estranged from their siblings growing up, so we had no extended family at all growing up. It's only since becoming an adult that I've established contact with them, but it's hard to build relationships as they all live quite far away. It is apparent though that the major issue was my mother and her behaviour (and my father's enabling of it).

For your DS, I agree with PPs that you should consider this a blessing. While they may seem to treat him better, they are damaged people and as your son grows it's inevitable they would be an unhealthy (to say the least) influence on him. Of course it hurts though, and I do think counselling could help you in dealing with that.

Lemon you must protect yourself from them
It's painful to know that the people who you should be able to rely on are working against you, trying to score points over you.
But still, recognise it for what it is and take appropriate steps to protect yourself, your childhood was decidedly suboptimal, it was not loving and supportive it was damaging, you survived in spite of it. Now you must do everything you can to mitigate the effects of this and get the best life you can for yourself and your loved ones.
Your parents are probably very damaged people but you are not the person to help them or fix them, don't let them cause you any more harm.

That phone conversation encapsulates it perfectly. You’ve tried to clarify things reasonably and they’ve behaved ridiculously. Asking who’s calling is just textbook narc - wrongfooting you and diminishing you.

Please look at the Out of The Fog website, it’s very reassuring when you’re doubting your sanity. I’m so sorry you’re feeling shaken, it’s a difficult time, but we’re all here for you. 💐

she ignored me all day
The silent treatment is so often the go-to weapon, use of this weapon implies that they are people with whom interaction is desirable and mutually beneficial, well good luck with that losers...you don't want to speak to me? bring it on, I don't want fuckwits like you in my life anyway
They are giving you grounds for retaliating in kind and escalating, aka complete no contact
Sayonara
That's all folks
I won't be back