"But we took you to Stately Homes" January 2020 onwards

[toomuchtooold]

It's January 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Mum sent cards to the kids today. For no reason, just chatty.

I saw them before they did, and removed them.

It's the first time I've done that! Usually just let them open them.

But NC means NC.

The kids are all under 10, so she doesn't get to have an independent relationship with them.

Now to move countries and provide no forwarding address (damn you corona virus- you are delaying our plans!)

@Fanthorpe thank you I will look at those. I think I've finally come to terms with the fact it has to be NC and also that the manipulation etc is happening. For a long time it was just how it was and I was gaslighted into accepting it. It's a positive step to see it clearly now but hard in other ways.

@AttilaTheMeerkat my half brothers are young, 13 and 15 but I've had to distance myself from them a bit because my dad was using them to get at me. It's tricky, wanting to protect myself and my family whilst wanting to be there for them.

Hi, this is my first post but I feel like it will be a great place to talk things through. I'm the eldest of 3 adult children, and recently it has occurred to me that I'm the family scapegoat. Growing up, I didn't give the dynamics in my family much thought, because as far as kids are concerned, I think that what you know is what is assumed to be normal. Long story short, my mum is undiagnosed (although it's been suggested to me by one counsellor) bpd and has always been volatile - easily offended, very black and white thinking, cutting people out for perceived slights, and can treat my father appallingly, emotionally immature, makes everything about her. There's so many examples I could be here all night! Basically I have always felt that I am a massive disappointment to my parents compared to my siblings. I have so much 'stuff' to unpack and hoping you lot will kind of know where I'm coming from.

Hi everything

Such dysfunctional family systems can also occur in narcissistic family structures; I would have a read of the Out of the FOG website and in particular look at Cluster B personality disorders. It is not your fault that your mother and enabler father are like this (women like your mother always but always need a willing enabler to help them) and you did not make them that way.

If you still have contact with your parents I would further lower it to zero sum.

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles. Your dad here is really her secondary enabler. He has also failed you as a parent by failing to protect you and your siblings from the excesses of his wife's behaviours. He is a weak bystander of a man who has acted out of self preservation and want of a quiet life.

I would also have a look at the resources at the start of this thread too.

Welcome, Everything.

Snap!! Oldest child of disordered mother and enabling father. Me too!

It's that overwhelming feeling that you are such a disappointment to your parents that is so harmful. Such a burden of shame to carry through life.

Realising that you are the scapegoat is the first step. You will come to understand that the shame isn't yours to carry. Hopefully we can help you here.

Thanks @AttilaTheMeerkat and @Dippydog.

I recently learned via my aunt (also eldest child, also moved to another continent from family of origin btw!) that my dad's mother also had major issues and treated him badly with a lot of putting down etc. It seems he was a case of "out of the frying pan, into the fire" in terms of meeting my mum. I went on to marry a covert narcissist whom I have recently separated from, so it seems I have the honour of breaking a long-established cycle. Self preservation and want of a quiet life sum him up perfectly! When I was a child, I used to think that my parents had a lot of arguments. Then I realised the 'arguments' consisted of my mum ripping my dad a new one while he would occasionally manage "yes" or "no" at the appropriate moment.

@everythingbackbutyou welcome!

The main thing to accept is that there is nothing at all that you could do to change how you were treated, everything you did was seen through the lens of your assigned role in your family.

I bet you can think of so many times that you felt hurt and confused about something you did that you just couldn’t understand why it was wrong.

I’m so glad you had a therapist who helped you, it’s great that they identified what the difficulty might be, it’s not often the case.

AAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!

This is never going to be over is it?

I decided to give the kids my mum's cards. DH and I discussed it and realised that mum will never give up, and so if I just dispose of the cards then she will use it against me later, when the kids are older.

As expected the kids read them, put them down and promptly forgot about them. Obviously as and when any more come through I'll read them before I give them to the kids.

So I'll bin them later.

But she's just text asking to FaceTime them.

FFS she sent me an email saying she should be able to say or do anything because she's my mum - and I told her explicitly that that was not acceptable for either me or the kids, and that we weren't going to be able to resolve it.

I now feel sick. I know I need to block her. I removed her from facebook this morning - not that she'll notice for a while as I barely post anything.

Anyone want to take a bet before I get the usual threats of going to court for access to my kids?

thankfully we are due to move countries in August, so there's no chance that she'll get a hearing through by then, even if its not an empty threat.

I've been so relieved the past few weeks, and now I just feel sick as I know it's never going to end.

If your mum is a narcissist of some description then she won’t stop until she gets her way. Every time you let her into your life even a little bit she’ll be in your mind a bit. Letters, cards and presents are awful because we’re conditioned to be grateful, so we give them space. The advice on here is always get them out of the house and out of your thoughts as quickly as possible, just bin them. You didn’t ask for them and they’re not sent with love or care, they’re sent to elicit guilt in you.

If your mum is too toxic for you then she’s too toxic for your kids. If you can’t cope with thinking about the long term then don’t, just say you’re not in touch at the moment and leave it. You don’t have to promise her anything.

One bit if it does end, the bit where you try to please her in the hope that she’ll change.

And even if she does threaten you with court (which would be pointless unless she’d played a significant part in the upbringing of your children) then she has got no chance of getting a hearing now as the courts aren’t operating.

Hey everyone 🤚
Reading through these posts makes me feel less alone. I grew up in still have such a toxic environment, I was raised by a single mother who has bpd, depression, and is a typical cluster b. My dad wasn’t allowed any involvement in my life because he didn’t want to stay with my mum and I was always on the receiving end of her frustrations and anger growing up which was physical and emotional. In my younger years I don’t have any memories of ever playing or doing anything fun with my mum (only my grandparents and cousins) and don’t really have many memories with her at all as she was always wrapped up in her own world. She is very vain and I remember always being late for school because she used to take so long to do her hair and makeup to walk 5 minutes down the road. From the age of 13 until I moved out at 19 she would cause arguments, hit me, tell me I was just like my father, refused to take any care of me or buy me clothes (I remember going to a college event with a huge whole in-between my trouser legs because we had to dress smart and I had nothing else to wear), she didn’t take any interest in my education or achievements and spent my teenage years in rage and a custody battle with my half brothers dad as she also tried to stop him from seeing my brother.

I didn’t really have a relationship with her until she was sectioned because of her mental health and I supported her through that and from then I think she’s seen me as a crutch. She’s a vile person inside but comes across so kind and friendly to others who don’t know her, she never has a nice word to say about anyone, is bitchy and nasty, sees the worst I’m absolutely everyone, is judgmental and critical, uses the I always support you card when I try to set some boundaries from her toxic behaviour, argues with everyone on her street where she lives and argues with strangers in shops. I feel beyond damaged from my life with her my extended family all seem to have cluster b personalities and so broken haven’t spoken to or seen any other family in years. My younger brother who was spoilt by my mum is now an adult narcissist who only contacts me if he needs something and ignores my messages otherwise. I don’t have any family at all if I cut her off and I guess that’s why I’ve always made excuses for her behaviour but she’s getting worse as the years go on and I now realise after 30 years that I’ll never have that mother daughter bond with her I always longed for. After the lockdown hoping to find a therapist I can work from these issues with and hopefully heal some of the damage.

Hi marshmellowdreams.

You are definitely not alone. I can relate to much that you have written, especially the bit about being the scapegoat for your mother's anger and frustrations. It creates such pain for individuals and reverberates through entire families.

It sounds as if you have done all you can for your mum, and I hope you can find the support, therapy etc you need to move on. It can be done and it is very worthwhile. Hopefully this site can offer support in the meantime.

Thanks @fanthorpe - I know you are right.

I blocked her and my stepdad from my phone last night. Wondering how long it will be before DH gets a call.

Interested to see if my brother gets involved. He used to be one of the first flying monkeys, but since he got a taste of the behaviour at his wedding, he has stayed quiet.

Another parcel arrived from mum this morning. It's being returned right away.

@marshmellowdreams I'm sorry that you are in our boat. I definitely resonate with the "you are just like your father" comments.

I've had to accept that I'll basically lose my entire family through this; but eventually it became clear it was worth it.

Definitely get therapy. And be completely honest with your therapist about why you are there. It took me three therapists to find the right one, and several months of therapy has made the world of difference.

Xx

Hi all, have posted on previous threads and taken much support, but I'm back...

Went NC with my dm after years of narc behaviour and her calling me a prostitute. Got a call from my sibling a few months ago to say dm needed to be bullied into calling 111 for chest pain, could I go round. So I did, 111 called for an ambulance, I went with her. Sibling arrived 3 hours later (lives 90 miles away, relevant) and I left. Visited in hospital à few times as sibling went home due to work/family commitments etc. Over Xmas dm stayed with sibling, provided lengthy childcare, cooking, shopping etc (so hardly a social holiday visit) sibling slagged her off the whole time, dm returned and sagged sibling off to me. Dm told me that after the hospital stuff assumed that our relationship was fixed and didn't understand how golden child/sagging off to me yet still going back for more was just a continuation.

Then cv hits. Sibling unable to visit, job slightly iffy - key worker forced to wfh but for private company who might not be paid if not providing full contract iyswim. Of course, muggins is local so is expected to step up for shopping etc. Spend hours waiting for online slots, fail, brave supermarket repeatedly for myself, vulnerable appreciative neighbour and dm who tells me it's a conspiracy to keep her at home. Spoke to her yesterday after managing to get a delivery slot, to be told that she's OK as she got a food parcel sent from local elderly support group and it really 'feels like someone cares about her'.

So a massive kick in the teeth for me. Hundreds of pounds worth of counselling down the toilet, making the effort as golden balls won't be arsed to even call during a fucking pandemic, and I spent most of yesterday in a miserable lonely heap sobbing at my stupidity for giving a fuck.

So I'm not going to any more. My uncle knows how I feel and has offered to speak to her. Sibling just sent me the shrug emoji when I messaged them yesterday.

Ah @Stronger76 my heart goes out to you, it really does. What can I say other than I’m so sorry that she’s confirmed what you always knew, it doesn’t stop it being upsetting and miserable though.

You did the right things for someone who gives the wrong reactions, be proud of your humanity despite her best efforts to break you.

You can stop now though, concentrate on yourself and turn your attention to people who love and appreciate you.

Sunnie

Good on you for blocking your mother and stepfather (her all too willing enabler) here. If your DH is contacted and this is likely, he will need to block her too. Infact I would block either of them now from being able to contact either of you. If any flying monkeys get sent in by your mother to do her bidding for her, they get the same blocking treatment.

re your comment:-
"Another parcel arrived from mum this morning. It's being returned right away".

I would urge you not to return the parcel because this will be seen by her as a response and she knows she has you then. To such disordered of thinking people the reward is a response. This is also hoovering behaviour on her part; do read further about toxic parents and hoovering. Narcissistic people are certainly one type who does such things.

Any items received by you should not be at all acknowledged. The best course of action here other than to never acknowledge same is to dispose the item altogether.

Was wondering why you decided to give your children her cards?. This was not a good idea, at least they were barely acknowledged by them. I would urge you to not keep on exposing your kids to such toxic manipulation from her; they do not need this and you do not either. You've been pretty much trained by her as it is to serve her whilst putting your own needs last. It is really not possible to have a relationship with someone this disordered and if your DH comes to realise that so much the better for you and he.

Sorry to read this stronger. Your post acts really should act as a salutary warning to other adult children of narcissists who may still think that the narcissistic parent cares at all about them. They do not and your writing too is very much a case of, "come closer so I can hurt you again".

Its no point whatsoever in your uncle speaking to her; it will have no effect. What I would also be concerned about re him is he becoming her flying monkey. All your can do is repair your wounds and have nothing further to do with her or your golden child sibling who clearly does not give a stuff either.

You’re right @AttilaTheMeerkat this is a good example of something many of us are possibly wrestling with a bit right now. Getting in touch to check on elderly relatives because everyone else is urging you too is so guilt inducing, and since children of narcissists run on the stuff it’s very hard to rationalise it.

Can I have a bit of a rant?.. I always think I’m overreacting when I talk about my experience, especially compared to some on here. But I was raised by my DM and DSF. They had a toxic relationship and a lot of that was then brushed off on me I spose. They both drank a lot and whenever my DM drank she would always say horrible things to me, like I didn’t like it when she drank and would always leave the room and she’d call me a bore and tell me she could understand why my dad didn’t want to see me (even though I still saw my dad). She also cheated on my DSF and told me everything when it was happening and made me promise not to tell (I was like 10). And then when we left him she just went off the rails into drugs and drink and basically forgot I existed and let my DGM with MH issues look after me. I got pregnant young and she was really happy because she said she doesn’t feel bad about messing my life up because now I will mess my DC’s life up. The thing is it all sounds awful written down but then we also have had times where we’ve got on so well and she’s been my best mate. Like now with lockdown she will drop food off for me and my kids because we are vulnerable. And she’s a really good DGM. But even when she does nice things she posts it in the family group chat so they all say how lovely she is and how much I should be thankful for her. It really upset me because I think deep down she’s actually nice but her childhood (she had to care for my DGM) has caused her to act the way she does. I think I’m always holding on in the hopes that she will get help and be the person I know she is, but it doesn’t look like she will. I just don’t know what to do, I don’t expect you to give me an answer I’m just venting. It’s just if you could guarantee me she’d get help I’d support her forever but I don’t know how much longer I can manage with the way she is and the way all my family think she’s a saint. I think it’s even harder because my boys adore her so I don’t want to take her away from them. It feels good to get it all off my chest

@Mrsmadevans I’m sorry I hope you don’t mind me saying but you sound like where I can imagine myself in years to come. The way you describe your mom being so lovely to others is just like mine and it’s so frustrating. Your post had just really hit a nerve with me as it seems like we’ve had really similar experiences. I hope your therapy helps

Averytired
My boys adore her
Your boys adore her because this is the way she engineers things, it may be a deliberate conscious strategy or an unconscious strategy or a mixture of both, but she makes sure the boys adore her because she knows this will draw you closer so that she can hurt you more (to paraphrase Atilla!)

She's toxic, poisonous, detrimental to your mental and physical health, treat her like a disease and keep away from her.

Argh! Why is it so easy to get drawn back in?

Had a flying monkey in the form of my step sister last night - pretending she's didn't know we had fallen out and asking why, and whether her dad could mediate

I handled it fine but then spent the rest of the evening wondering if I was being heavy handed.

I'm not - I'm definitely not - and I'm cross that the messages caused that reaction!

Hold that line Sunnie!
It gets easier
They do it because they know you are susceptible to being triggered
Hold that line

Hold the line Sunnie

Remember that flying monkeys are not interested in hearing your side of things so their opinion should be ignored. They are really acting too in their own self interest.

Because you were deeply, deeply conditioned to sunnie, you learnt the lesson that you needed to always be the one who forgave and forgot if your life wasn’t to be completely terrible.

Although the advice is to put them all in the past and move on, sometimes I wonder if keeping a little store of cold hard rage to be drawn upon in these situations might be worthwhile.