"But we took you to Stately Homes" January 2020 onwards

[toomuchtooold]

It's January 2020, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
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August 2013
December 2013
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Oct 14 – Dec 14
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Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
November-December 2019

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Mamma your mum sounds very troubled I think she would probably benefit from therapy to help her process the traumas in her own life but what happened to her isn't your fault and she has made you suffer for it. She's using you to try and put things right in her head, some kind of bargaining is going on, this is not fair on you, you should not allow yourself to be used in this way.
I would seek therapy in your situation, you seem to have pretty good instincts you know that you need to cut yourself off from your mother in order to protect yourself from the damage she's inflicting.

It really is peaceful in my mind, for the first time ever
Dippydog, this is so good to hear 😊👍👍👍

@Dippydog- you haven’t bored me at all! I completely get where you are coming from and I’m sorry that you have a hard relationship with your parents and I am sorry that you lost your husband! I couldn’t imagine how hard that must be.

My saving grace was meeting my partner and getting away from her. She tried to control and manipulate until my daughter was born. When my partner and I moved into our house when I was heavily pregnant she had my solicitors fees saved for me and I asked her for it back on the day of completion and she wouldn’t give me it. She then transferred it to my partner as she said she wouldn’t give it too me. I didn’t need the stress at 8 months pregnant.

Also she offered one of my ex boyfriends money to stop speaking to me because she didn’t like him. I walked in on her offering him money and she wasn’t even embarrassed.

She also took my sisters and I for a day out and she brought along the guy that she had an affair with. When we arrived it turned out it was a cot death support day, she couldn’t wait to introduce me as the surviving child. I was angry because my parents were separated because of an affair and then there were all these parents telling us how they felt losing their babies! Her boyfriend came along and people were asking him how he felt losing my sister.

Dippy, your mother's behaviour was astonishing, astounding 😲
But they get away with it because our whole childhood's were a process of training us to defer to them, by the time we manage to to gather our wits together and understand what has happened we are 50 years old and it's TOO LATE!
If only I came to my senses earlier🤦🏼‍♀️

Mammabee20 just wanted to say it’s good to see you here - you’ll find it a much more understanding place than the main boards

Hello all. I’ve posted numerous times here before under different names, and am eternally grateful for the wise words I’ve had from other posters on the topic of narcissistic parents.

In my case it’s my DM. I used to think she was just “difficult” but then understood she fits the narc descriptions subtly but perfectly. When I understood this, I took the approach to keep her at arms length. It worked in that I gave her very little, and she could then ramble on about herself, just as she likes it.

However, we’ve been LC for nearly 2 years after I stood up to her when her behaviour was terrible and I was going through a hard time. It was the straw that broke the camels back tbh... Since then I’ve benefited from therapy and have basically moved on. LC seemed to be the new status of our relationship, and it suited me in lots of ways. Sibling is NC with her as a result of the same event.

Now she’s popped up saying that I’m treating her terribly, I’m hurtful, mean, uncaring, unloving, and that I’m punishing her, that I should just move on from what she did (despite no apology/regret/remorse from her side), that I’d be pleased if she got coronavirus etc etc etc. And that I’m now not to contact her and our relationship is over unless I can “be kind”. I think her intention was to improve things but there has never been apology for the dreadful episode that started all this, and just a barrage of how awful I am.

Thing is, some of it was true - I can’t deny that I’m not in touch with her much, that I keep her at a distance, that I don’t let her in, that the relationship was empty... and then the guilt sets in.

Since this happened my head has been swimming with all sorts of thoughts. In once sense I feel nothing much. A bit of relief maybe? That maybe this is the door to NC? But also sad for her that she’s made everything so much worse. I’m worried she’ll do something OTT/silly. And then I feel naive for thinking that LC was sufficient, and that surely this blow up was inevitable? But I also know it was the right thing for me, at the price of being selfish for not pandering to her.

I don’t know where things go from here, nowhere I guess. Is it really the end of the relationship and if it is, do I even care? I’m gutted she didn’t try to patch things up but it’s really no surprise given her past form that she took the approach she did. I know I’ll never have the relationship I’d like with her, therapy helped me accept that, and over the last 2 years of LC I haven’t missed her.

Then I’ve got loads of questions running round such as how I explain it to the kids? Do we visit when we go to her area (1-2 times per year to see other friends and family)? What do I do if she ever gets ill? Do I go to her funeral? How much do we keep in touch with DSD?

It’s all such a mess. A relief and a disaster all at once? Well whatever it is, it’s a headfuck.

Not sure why I’m posting really, think I just needed to get it off my chest with people who get it. Thank you for reading.

@Catty99 - take the door that has been opened for NC.

This is exactly what I did 6 weeks ago, and I cannot tell you how relieved I am.

It's like the black cloud hanging over me has vanished and I can finally breathe.

LC doesn't work, as you have just found out. Let her go.

As for the kids - depending on their ages, just don't say anything unless asked.

Mine are all under 9, so if they ask I plan just to be busy for the time being, and eventually explain that mum wanted a relationship where she could say and do as she pleased (her words) and that that wasn't a good relationship to have with anyone.

Simple, light and breezy and move on.

Hi catty! What she’s saying may well be true - that you don’t contact her etc - but it’s her conduct that has led to that. Only you can decide what to do. But do you really want to stay in touch with her on her terms?

As to all the questions you have, you don’t need to have the answers to them right now. Give it some time. You have the benefit of her being far away from you by the sound of it, which I guess makes things easier. As does the fact that your sister is NC.

I don’t have the answers, but I think having this space just to write things down helps. I’ve been LC with my M for over one year now after the final straw and I think we may now be NC after my birthday came and went without her getting in touch. Like you, I always wonder if she’ll somehow admit what’s she’s done or try to change. But these people generally don’t have that in them. Maybe give yourself some time to mull things over - don’t put yourself under any pressure to respond to her ultimatum.

Thank you for your replies. It really is good to have somewhere to come and offload @sunnie1992 Mine are under 9 too. I knew that my DM didn't have much time for her DGM (also narc) so I don't want them to think it's normal to not be close to your DM as you grow up. Determined to break the cycle and not let history repeat.

@chloechloe Indeed, I need to remember the root cause of this. I'm sorry your DM missed your birthday, that must've hurt.

NC just seems so final... I was ready for LC, it made sense. But NC feels bigger and heavier all round, for all of us (me and the DC, DH won't be bothered, for DM too.

And I'm starting to question myself too... Is she really that bad? Does she really deserve this? Is it worth the kids losing a grandparent over? I know in my heart of hearts that the alternative is to be sucked back in to her self-absorbed world where I was unhappy for so long... but I don't feel happy right now either... And regardless of what she's said and done, I feel bad at being the source of her turmoil too.

Now she’s popped up saying that I’m treating her terribly, I’m hurtful, mean, uncaring, unloving, and that I’m punishing her, that I should just move on from what she did (despite no apology/regret/remorse from her side), that I’d be pleased if she got coronavirus etc etc etc. And that I’m now not to contact her and our relationship is over unless I can “be kind
Catty99, after reading your post this is my take, you read this message from her and you focus on the words, what she means by them, does she have a point etc.
I think this is her just poking you with a stick to get you to respond so that you give her something to work with, so that you reach out and 'take the rope/bait'
You're looking at the 'stick' that she used, examining it but she just picked up the closest thing to hand that looked like it might give you a good hard wallop.
Keep quiet and see what she does next, it may well contradict her previous move, she's just randomly pressing any buttons hoping that one will work.

I hear you about the guilt and the discomfort:(
for my own situation I have put my relationship with the parent in 'hibernation' until the stressful situation in my life resolves and then I think I may be able to go back to humouring them from a distance.
The parent in my case tried to use a flying monkey and 'my death from covid is imminent with details of the funeral they had planned for themself'
(parent is not actually ill btw)

the only way I would countenance having any parent back in my life would be to dish out the same treatment they gave to me
it would be better for them if they kept away from me

I agree with what’s been said @Catty99. And my contribution would be that you don’t have to decide all those ‘what ifs’ about the future right now, you can see how you feel when they arise.

I think all those feelings of perhaps-she’s-not-as bad-as-I’m-remembering are part of the conditioning you received as a child to always take the emotional responsibility. It’s a kind of hangover.

As you said she didn’t express sorrow or regret about the past, no apology or sadness. No reflection on how you might be feeling, just pointing out that she’s tired of your behaviour. Don’t fall for it would be my advice.

I know what you mean catty about NC being so final. But that would only be the case if you were to reply to her to that effect. Perhaps just take some time - you don’t need to make a decision as such.

I too second guess myself all the time, asking myself if my mother is really that bad. All that really shows though is that you have empathy and try to put yourself in her position - something which she is incapable of doing.

Do you think it would really be a loss to your children? Only you know whether they have a good and healthy relationship with her. I’m lucky in that my mother lives a long way away so we rarely saw her anyway. The eye opener for me was the last time she came to visit and seeing her through my daughter’s eyes. Even my 4 yo saw that the way she acted was not normal - that was enough for me to realize I was right to cut her out. I don’t want my children growing up being witness to such toxicity. But perhaps your mother is different and able to act differently towards your children?

seeing her through my daughter’s eyes
I mentioned my mother to my adult children a little while back, 'oh yeah we always knew she was crazy/batshit'... I feel they see them more clearly than I can

@Ulterego I think you’re right about being prodded. She definitely know what buttons to press. With my sibling she’s going via their spouse, putting them right in the middle. It’s beyond inappropriate, but sibling is left with no choice but to instigate contact to tell DM to stop. Spouse is trying to stay neutral and DM is manipulating their good nature.

Yes @Fanthorpe, Its like I just need to pack it in really and let her do whatever she wants to me... Given how awful she was making me out to be I have no idea what she actually wanted. Funny way to try to patch things up...

@chloechloe You’re right, it’s not final really, but I do think it’s a control thing on her behalf whereby LC was my terms and she’s going one better by going NC. And I don’t plan to play games, I haven’t missed her so far... Re being a grandmother, she’s very overbearing with the kids. THE best grandparent EVER. She never helped me when they were tiny, and undermined me on several occasions, never showed any respect for me as a mother. They think she’s fun but I do not trust her. I think at some point she would use or turn them against me...

Its a milestone birthday for her v soon. I had already arranged a gift before this latest “spat”. The kids have sent cards. I haven’t and intend to send a brief happy birthday text and that’s it. Other than that I genuinely don’t have anything to say to her. We have many many miles between us which somehow helps.

She’s so damaged and damages so much. She has so much going for her, it seems like such a waste... She’s not happy either but what can I do? Nothing really....

The phrase 'piece of work' comes to mind Catty when I read what you say about your mother, always looking for a way to work against you 😣 terrifying to be completely under the power of someone like her as a small child😳

Thing is @Ulterego that’s what she says about me. That I’ve decided to see her and treat her as The Enemy.

Apparently she’s had months of therapy, not sleeping, waking up crying in the dark, desperately trying to think of how she could make things better (yet not actually doing anything about it). This does make me sad, that she’s been in such a tizz. But I can’t help thinking she’s deflecting the shit she caused and trying to now play it all as “whatever I said or did ALL those years ago, I surely don’t deserve THIS...

Catty,

re your comment:-
"And I'm starting to question myself too... Is she really that bad? Does she really deserve this? Is it worth the kids losing a grandparent over?"

Yes, yes and yes are my responses to those questions you put. It is NOT possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist.

You were but a child at the time, how could you have ever been the source of her turmoil?. You were not but she simply chose to blame you for all her inherent ills. It is not your fault she is like this and you did not make her that way. You probably on some level remind her of your father, a man whom she also most likely hated as well. Women like your mother cannot do relationships so the men in their lives are either as narcissistic as they are or are otherwise discarded.

Do as your sibling has done here and end all contact with her too. She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she is a crap example of a grandparent to your children too. DO not further inflict this woman on any of you.

Catty

You are very much an adult child of a narcissist raised primarily to put your own self last with the narcissist first and foremost.

She's feeding you a lot of old BS, please do not keep on falling for it. She is not doing any of those things she is telling you she is.

And no she has not likely had months of therapy either; narcissists as well do not tend to do well in therapy as they think there is nothing wrong with them. At the very least too she would need decades of it and even then it would not be ultimately successful. Such disordered of thinking people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

Thanks @Attila I’ve always liked your no BS approach. Sibling

DM thinks she has apologized but it was more of a “FGS I’m sorry for whatever it is I’m supposed to have done”. I wanted to say that apologies contain an admission that the actions caused hurt and some element of regret and empathy (none of which were present). But I didn’t tell her that, no point. It would’ve fallen on deaf ears.

My stepfather will be bearing the brunt of this. He’s a decent man, I love/care about him a lot. But he’s accepted her shit, made his bed as it were. Though she’s also trapped him financially so he’s been unable to leave their marriage despite two attempts to do so in the last 10 years. I think he doesn’t have the fight in him at 70+.

Anyhow. Thanks for listening to me ramble on. It’s always v therapeutic on here. I might see if I can have a couple of sessions with my old therapist to help some of this settle. If I can feel freed by the NC, great, but at the moment I feel a bit weighed down by the thought of it.

Oh my god I am so glad I found this thread. I don't really talk about my dad to abyone as they don't get it. In a nutshell, my mum left him after a few attempts when I was 6 - he is a narcissist and misogynist and was emotionally, financially and sometimes physically abusive to her. He switched that to me after she remarried when I was 11. I've had a lifetime of emotional abuse and manipulation (I'm fat, not meek enough, should have long hair, should wear dresses and generally adore him). My lovely brother was the golden child as he idolised my dad but he took his own life when he was 19 and by then, he had come to see my dad for what he was.

Currently struggling as I went NC with my dad 2 years ago when he goaded me about not losing weight and being a size 14 at my wedding whilst I was visiting my dying grandmother. It was just a joke apparently but it is his way of putting me in my place.
Recently he has been using my half brothers to try and contact me, whilst making it seem like he doesn't want to speak to me but is doing it for their sake. I don't see them enough etc etc, he was a great father to me and I'm and awful sister.
He is a Jehovahs Witness and keeps sending me JW videos about COVID telling me he loves me even though he is always absolutely vile and absuive. Been having nightmares about him again and can't get him off my mind!

Sorry for the long post but I never really talk about it and my husband doesn't really get it!

Re your sibling your mother has honed in on the weaker link in the chain here, that being her husband. She will go all out to try and manipulate him to get back at her other daughter.

Re your stepfather you are right in that he accepted her shit. He also failed you here as a parent by failing to protect you from the excesses of his wife's behaviours. He is a weak bystander of a man who has acted out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. He is also her secondary enabler and as a result of that he threw you and your sibling under the bus.

SundayGirlB

So sorry to read this, I hope you find this thread both useful and as a comfort to you.

NC is precisely that; no contact so he should not be able to send you any form of communication including emails. Block his being able to email you at all. Apart from anything else the content upsets you.

You would not tolerate this from a friend here, your dad here is no different.

I would also block every one of the half brothers who have been roped in by your dad to act as his flying monkeys. Narcissists amongst others use flying monkeys (usually well meaning but all too easily manipulated and otherwise fooled friends and relatives) to do their bidding for the narcissist. These people are not interested in hearing your side of things so their opinion should be ignored.

I'm sorry for whatever I'm supposed to have done
This is not an apology is it Catty☹️it's a slap in the face, she wriggles out of it by refusing to engage with any of the points you want to raise. The implication is that you are being ridiculous, not to be taken seriously.
There is no way forward because she refuses to engage on your terms, probably she instinctively blocks herself from seeing things your way because it puts her in a bad light and she just cannot tolerate being in the wrong, she has to keep herself above you☹️
Sunday, I'm so sorry your father is such a monster😡 block him completely and burn any photographs of him that you have

@SundayGirlB hi, and welcome.

If you can, read some of the websites and books mentioned at the beginning of this thread, you’ll find a lot of things make more sense to you about how to break away from the manipulation, and find some peace.

The JW stuff is really hard to get away from, they behave like a cult. Your husband might get insight from reading the Out of The Fog website, perhaps. Lots of partners don’t understand, if you’ve grown up in a normal family it’s hard to get your head around.