"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
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March 2011
November 2011
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May-August 2019
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October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@toomuchtooold
Thanks for your message. Yes certainly can see that happening and in the past (when I felt so blindly loyal and wanting to please my DM) it has definitely swung from being the scapegoat to golden child etc. It seems like people are either great or terrible. And what I realise is all the siblings are played off each other, no one reaching out to anyone else. Now suddenly, I'm getting calls from Dsis today (I never get calls or random requests to meet up) which I suspect is flying monkey type behavior so I just didn't answer.

I wonder if others have found that sibling relationships are completely non existent because of the narcissistic parent's control over everything and everyone?

I am finding it hard being around some of my siblings. One of my brothers in particular has some of the traits my Dad has that I find really frustrating. My brother is not narcissistic but loves having arguments with me where he will know exactly what to say to irritate me whilst staying cold and detached so I end up looking "crazy". I hate the self-satisfaction he gets from it. I am not an argumentative person at all, it is only with this particular brother who can be very selfish like my narcissistic Dad is. I think I react to my brother because I can never react like that with my Dad so it all comes out to my brother. My Dad and brother contribute nothing to the family whilst my DM, my sister and I do everything and I hate the fact he has been raised to see women do everything. The arguments are always to do with him refusing to help do something and it always falling me or my DSis to do.

@Lost12
I can relate to what you are saying about ability to form friendships being so lacking and I can directly link that to my childhood as well. I felt so isolated my whole childhood and young adult life and ever so lonely. There were no family friends and very strained relationships with relatives growing up too. What I ended up doing was relying a lot on my parents for company which was never healthy, given - like you - my DM is a narcissist and DF her enabler. I also relate to what you say that into since having my DD and putting her first have I begun to realise how awful things were (are!) and how to break the cycle of abuse to my DD.

Can I please ask for those of you who are seeing or have seen a counsellor/therapist to talk through dealing with narcissistic parents, dealing with a traumatic childhood and self esteem issues as a result and going NC, what should I be looking for or questions I should be asking to gauge if a counsellor is right for me?
Thanks in advance

@YesSheCan - I think it's completely standard for a narcissist to want their children to do high flying courses at uni - but to be close enough to call back at a moment's notice. My mother did that to me.

@MaryBoBary - I think therapy is really important - if you can find one experienced in dealing with narcissistic parents.

@Rabbitcat - Yes sounds like narcissism to me! A lot of those feel very familiar!

Eugh sorry about your dad. What an arse. Glad you've found alternate childcare, their influence over your child was never going to be a good thing.

Await the sudden influx of contact now you've removed your DD from their clutches.

I'd ask a therapist directly if they have experience of working with people with childhood trauma from neglectful and emotionally abusive parents and see what their responses are.

@SingingLily thanks for the book recommendation - I'll pick it up - it's nice to have some guidance on raising kids when you have no good example set for you.

Well done on the duty call - I wish I could go a month in-between calls, mine is ramping up again at the moment as she is spoiling for a fight. I mainly talked about other people today, and ignored myself entirely.

@ManonBlackbeak - I have the performance voice too - drives me nuts! Especially when she uses it on the phone for some reason - there's only me listening!

Good for you slapping her down though - I like to play too, even though my fingers get regularly burnt,

@Dippydog I'm so sorry for your loss, and your lack of support. Hugs xx

@SimplySteveRedux - well done -really proud of you. x

@mummy3yearold - I suspect the therapy isn't really working. No one is heartbroken until someone dies or leaves them. It's excessive and just a sign of how self absorbed she is.

@Lost12 - It very much sounds like your mother was a narcissist (is), and you were on the severe end of it - to leave you in a hospital on your own was very flagrant neglect. It sounds horrendous. xx

@rosebouquets yes mourning is totally normal. As a child you can't imagine that your parent's aren't perfect, so you assume their behaviour is normal - it's hard to change such an embedded view.

And you really need to get to a library and take the time to focus on your applications - speak to your uni who can assist with the job application process. You CAN do this, and you need to.

@user1463007194 - Your childhood not only sounds quite a long way from "the best childhood" it actually sounds pretty horrendous. It is definitely not a healthy relationship. xx

Your mother definitely sounds like she needs to spoil any happy occasion - it's also common for mothers to try to damage your relationships outside of the immediate family.

@parmesan189 - well done for refusing to have your brother barge in and become a flying monkey!

@toomuchtooold - my mother is the same, she is (to quote my sister in law) always "picking on one sibling or the other". Although my brother is almost always the golden child, and I'm almost always the scapegoat. Our relationship is non-existent and I only get his news through her which is heavily filtered, and the same the other way.

Mother rang again today, deflected it with talk of other people and got off the phone sharpish.

Going there are the weekend for our christmas celebration. Will be glad to get it over with and back into the school run, so I'm busy,

Then therapy starts next week - I have a feeling it's going to be a long and emotional road.

@Rabbitcat Hi - I have only had a preliminary session before they find the right therapist for me.

I told them and they understood that building some sort of relationship with my mother was not a goal. I think you need to make that really clear from the get-go. I also mentioned that I think my mother is a covert narc and it would be helpful to have a therapist who understood what that meant.

I also told them that I didn't want to spend a lot of time exploring my past but wanted to find a way to move on from the trauma and understand the triggers that made me relapse into my self-destructive behaviour and find a way to stop or minimise them.

I think therapy can be quite hard - we are not used to talking about our feelings or having them validated and we are not used to setting boundaries for ourselves.

Perhaps write down what you want to achieve beforehand so it's clear in your mind and make sure you stick to what you want to do.

Tried to get sibling B to "see the light" over sibling A after they behaved badly towards yet another relative

Ended with B saying we were all full of drama and was going NC with everyone for a week.

So frustrating, 2 steps forward and 2 back with B ALWAYS.

Just when you think B has got it, it's like they go back into their shell.

Rabbitcat I never asked specific questions as such, just gave it a first session to see how it went. I would talk about my background and it became clear very quickly whether the counsellor truly got it or not. My first one was very airy fairy and believed in asking the universe for what you want. My second one clearly understood dysfunctional families and knew immediately that I had a huge amount to work through, so I've stuck with him.

I think therapy can be quite hard - we are not used to talking about our feelings or having them validated and we are not used to setting boundaries for ourselves.

The question I struggle with in therapy is how I feel about things, people, etc. I just talk and talk and go off on tangents but don't answer the question (and I don't realise I'm doing it). The counsellor always pulls me back and tries to get me to acknowledge my feelings, which is really hard because I'm so used to suppressing them. It's hard, but worth trying.

EineReiseDurchDieZeit It's frustrating but just remember that it's not your responsibility to make B see the light, and it's not something you can control. They need to see it for themselves and sometimes it happens in baby steps.

I think we have been conditioned from an early age to feel responsibility for other people and it's a hard habit to break.

I probably said more than B was willing to process

They work in MH so got all just because you want A to be a narcissist doesnt make it true, I know because it's my job"

Only A is a RAGING narcissist, it's just that B has never looked at their behaviour in that light because it's never occurred to them to, and they have far less exposure to A generally.

Eine, I worked for a long time with people who were personality disordered and still didn't see the same patterns in my own mother. It was a blind spot, and if you had tried to tell me then, you might have got the same response.

B will either come to that realisation in their own time (which is the point when you will be able to talk to them) or they might never do - because the truth staring someone in the face is the one closest to home and it is too hurtful to acknowledge.

Cherrycee is right. It's not your responsibility, although I understand entirely why you feel it is. Better to step back and wait.

@rosebouquets your brother sounds like the Water Torturer from the book Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft. That thing where they just bait you and bait you and then stand back and go "I don't know why you have to get so emotional".

Hi all, Happy New Year (probably the most sincerely wished one you’ll get from a stranger- I genuinely hope for all of you there’s a bright horizon ahead)

I think the most productive idea for therapy is to make a plan for finding your own values - what you want and what you don’t. Your relationships with others will come from this, I think. Put yourself at the centre, probably for the first time in your life. Recognise when you’re trying to please your therapist, practice with them finding a way not to do this. Easier said than done.

Happy new year Herocomplex!

I am trying to make contact with a counsellor to give me a bit of a hand - hopefully will get up and running in a week or so.

Another thing DM has been doing is linking up with friends and some of my long lost relatives on FB. Something in me snapped today and I sent some of them messages to let them know the reason I no longer post on their pages is because DM is all over them with hearts and soppy messages and it makes me sick. Maybe they will now think I'm mad or it will be too awkward for them to deal with. But I am sick of it and this FB take over has been going on for a while now. One person is an old university friend and ex I haven't seen for 20 years and he gets more messages from her than DH does on FB. It feels really wrong and I hate seeing her nice messages.

Basically I know DM is nice unless she doesn't get her own way when she turns into a spitting demon.

I swore out loud this morning when she left me a manipulative message on my answerphone and DS heard me.

This is why I think I need counselling, to recover my calmness.

BTW DS is not 3, far from it, but I am not putting his actual age on here in case it identifies me.

I’m fairly sure most people would recognise that as strange behaviour on FB @mummy3yearold, I would just DM them and say please feel free to block her, don’t feel you need owe her anything because she’s the mother of someone they know.

I’m so thankful my mother hates technology and has no social media presence at all.

And I wouldn’t even let her get beyond the first word on a message, my finger would be poised over the delete button to be pressed as soon as she began. Claim back your power, practice makes perfect.

@user1463007194 look after yourself right now - it can be quite hard when it all starts to hit you.

Regarding sibling rivalry, I talked to my therapist about wanting to have more than one child because I was an only child and it was pretty lonely and scary in the house with my mum the whole time. She said to me, there's a good chance your mother would have manipulated your relationship so that you weren't friends. It's bloody horrifying, and I can imagine it would have made it so much harder to understand how fucked up your home life was if everyone was involved. to all of you in that situation.

It's a bit of a coincidence that sibling rivalry was mentioned in the previous post, and many others, of course. I have been thinking about the situation with my sister.

Since going NC with parents about eight years ago, I have had absolutely no contact with my sister. She did, however, send a sympathy card when my husband died, included her email address and offered help. I was actually quite touched, but have struggled to make any move. Not sure what to do for the best.

I believe it was very much a case of me being scapegoat and her being golden child. I don't think her relationship with parents was plain sailing, but it was less fraught. When I told her I couldn't cope with parents any more, she told me "it wasn't like that, that's just how you remember it", referring to our childhood. She didn't seem able to accept that I had a different experience to her. And actually, I find it so hard to remember her presence in my childhood. We are only separated by a year in age, and I have memories of the two of us together, but few memories of her being around for the most traumatic episodes. So I accept that her recollection of our childhood was different, but am sad that she can't see that my relationship with our mother was so different to hers. We are different people, after all. It seems as if she also blames me for all upset in the family. From the tiny amount of information I have, no one ever mentions me or my family, and things are good without us.

So what I am wondering is whether to reach out, very tentatively, to my sister, or whether to remain no contact. I can't say I have missed her. I don't feel I know her and what relationship we had was controlled by mother.

Despite losing my husband, I feel much stronger now, so I am curious as to how things could be. In contrast, my father phoned me the day after husbands funeral, said he was shocked, and asked if we could resume contact, now that husband has gone. Pretty insensitive, but par for the course. At least sister's approach was more caring.

If anybody has time to read all of this, and share their thoughts, I would be very grateful. I won't be rushing to make any moves but am wanting to consider things.

All the best to everyone and hoping the new year has started with some positives!

I think it depends on how strongly your sister regards you as a rival for your parents' approval, Dippydog. If she is still golden child but rejects any notion that she might be, then any contact between you and her would be problematic. You would have no idea how much of your news, life, views, etc, would be passed back to your parents - possibly with a twist all of her own.

Since Dad's death, middle sister (always golden child) is now in full-blown toxic mode. My mother seems to have stepped back slightly to become her enabler. Whether this has to do with my mother's advanced age and consequent lack of energy or opportunity, I can't be sure. I now trust my middle sister Not One Jot. Our relationship was always eggshell-y but, on the surface, tolerable. However, she has now taken backstabbing to a whole new level although she is careful to maintain the public persona of Utter Loveliness while being anything but.

Similarly, the relationship between middle sister and my DSis, previously just as eggshell-y, has deteriorated rapidly.

I have a strong bond with my DSis. However, it has had to withstand something of a battering recently as both our mother and middle sister have tried to drive a wedge between us. We have managed to stop that from happening so far - because we are honest and truthful with each other - but it has meant having some painful conversations when we are both already raw with grief for Dad. Every time I see DSis, we end up crying together and it is as much about stamping on middle sister's or mother's latest lies as it is about the whole rotten mess that is our family, but to be frank, we neither of us need the additional pain.

So, Dippydog, you are quite right to take your time and think it over. If your sister adds nothing to your life now, that's sad as you would probably quite like a normal healthy sibling relationship, but if she is still of the mind that you singlehandedly caused all the upset in the family, then I'm afraid you are on a hiding to nothing. Sorry.

It wasn't like that, that's just how you remember it
I think her phrasing is very telling here Dippy, in your sister's mind the real experience, the essential truth of it, was hers, she is the main player, the proper one the real one
The implication is that your experience was a distorted version, or you had the wrong end of the stick or you didn't really understand what was happening.
As for your father asking to resume contact now that your husband has gone, wtf does that mean?
Does it mean 'now that he's out of the way I can get my foot in the door and start manipulating you again'?
you mentioned that your sister's approach is more caring, I say 'we catch more flies with honey than with vinegar' - she probably just has a better sense of exactly how to reel you in so that she can get you under control?

Reading what you say about your middle sister Singinglily, it's almost as if she smells an opportunity to seize power now that your father is gone?

I would not restart contact with your sister for the reasons ulterego gives. I also think she had not fundamentally altered in all this time. What has also stopped her from reaching out to you before now?. I think she has merely only done as wider societal convention dictates, no more than that.

What would be achieved from restarting contact and what would you want from same?. They could be two very different outcomes for you. You also do not miss her, that also speaks volumes. Her version of reality is to her the only correct one, she is denying your truth here by stating otherwise.

Morning all,

Apologies for venting without giving advice - I would agree with what has been said about people who say "that's not how I remember it", though, unless you are confident enough to withstand that sort of invalidation, keep away, it's much safer - I'm about a week into living on my own independently and received a message from my mother this morning.
Not only do I feel deeply guilty and ashamed for how I reacted, but I reacted just to a simple message, which I haven't even read, with fear and disgust and almost violation. I am doing better now there are three locked doors between me and my parents but I'm not sure whether to read and react to the message (I am, after all, being a terrible daughter and though she says she knows I don't want to hear from her I haven't had the guts to say it to her face) or to ignore it, or what! I am also having a very minor piercing today with a friend - how juvenile, I know - and it is at least in a very small part because I know she is vocally opposed to it and has attempted to control family friends by ordering them to take theirs out in certain situations.
I feel so confused! Help. So sorry to complain like this.