"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@ManonBlackbeak I've been lurking but had to respond because what you said about your DM sounded so familiar to me. And likewise this Christmas, for some reason, I saw some of DMs behaviour for what it is rather than accepting it as normal. She is excessively noisy and over the top, always performing, always talking over people and bringing the conversation back to herself. It's exhausting. I think she has something called histrionic personality disorder or at least some of these traits. In the Karyl McBride book she refers to this type of narcissist as the flamboyant-extravert. So yes it's definitely a thing.

Hi, DM has now been in therapy for four months and things have been improving. Normally I screen calls, and call once a week, but I have been feeling more trusting with better behaviour from DM and her generally acting like a nice old lady - for a number of weeks now. I thought we were through the worst. Today the phone rang and I decided to pick it up. Big mistake. The call lasted nearly an hour and came just before our dinner. I assumed a quick call to finalise a visit and have a nice chat, the sort of chat one would like with one's DM. Instead I was pushed into setting a boundary; this went down like a lead balloon. DM said she was "heartbroken". It was only a small boundary, on the basis of me feeling unsafe and setting it to feel safer. No dice. She was "heartbroken" I could do such a thing. The conversation lasted nearly an hour. I needed to restate that I expected to be treated with respect and my boundaries were to be respected. In reply DM said she felt "lost" and wanted a list of said boundaries. I said I couldn't give her a list as I set them when I feel unsafe. There were tears that she doesn't see DS as much as she likes. Then accusations that I have her wrong. She saw DS last week and got invites to the school plays as well. But nothing is ever enough, she just wants more.

We have already planned to take DS for a visit tomorrow. Cue from DM playing the frail old lady who says she is too scared to ask me to come in for coffee. Clearly she is more terrified by a possible No than I am allowed to be of her mood swings and temper. Saying No really seems to put the cat among the pigeons.

This is the same person who blames me for not telling her sooner how I felt (I am 50 and have lived with this behaviour for over 40 years). Constant responses that I was too terrified to tell her are not understood. Because she was the victim, obvs. I only told her because I was at the end of my tether and couldn't go on like this any more.

Any comments are welcome as ever. I am glad I found this group.

mummy3 it sounds to me like your mother has learned a very sort of shallow lesson in therapy about how to communicate in a way that sounds nicer, but she hasn't learned the big lesson which is that sometimes in life something happens and you just have to suck it up. For normal people, being told "no" means accepting a momentary feeling of discomfort and then moving on. But emotionally immature people never move on, they just keep on trying to get rid of thst boundary.
Looking at things very cynically, I wonder if sll the therapist has done is give your mother a new, nicer-sounding language in which to express the same old feelings. Being optimistic, maybe she will take this experience to her therapist and learn from it? They say people like our parents don't change with therapy but who knows, because most of them never even get through the therapist's door. So all credit to your mother for that.

But for you, you don't have to reward thses (snall) efforts with all your time and attention. Next time she pulls any of this, just say to her you'll spesk to her another time when she's calmed down. She's not heartbroken. She's a bit miffed.

You will only be over the worst when you have nothing more to do with your mother.

I would now cancel this visit to your mother, cite a sickness bug or something but do not go there with your son.

A good rule of thumb here is that if a parent is too toxic or otherwise batshit for you to deal with, it’s the same deal for your child too.

I doubt very much that your mother’s therapy sessions are or will be at all effective. Narcissistic people generally do not do very well in therapy anyway because they do not think that there is anything wrong with them. She has not fundamentally changed since your own childhood and she will harm your son in not too dissimilar ways as to how you have been harmed too.

Beware too when such a person seems to become nicer because they are then really setting you up to do something really nasty to you as you have seen. She will and indeed has actively railed against any and all boundaries you care to set her. It is really not possible to have a relationship with someone so disordered of thinking. You would not tolerate this from a friend, your mother is no different.

It’s not your fault she is like this and you did not make her that way. Do read toxic parents by Susan Forward as a starting point.

You do not mention your father here, where is he?

Ulterego
Thanks for your message of support. Yes I absolutely feel like the scapegoat and fed up of playing nice no matter what bad treatment I get from DM and the rest of them.

Despite my resolve to begin NC I caved in yesterday and rang my DF (my DM doesn't answer my calls- hasn't for months!). He gave me his usual greeting of "what?". I said I rang to say Happy New year which was met with very little. They had been out with Dsis (flying monkey, narc/toxic). They have no other relationship with my other siblings. I have been their flying monkey in the past but now so obviously fallen out of favour - I know this is due to daring to live my own life and having a DD and standing up for myself finally. My DF asked if my DD is coming to theirs next week and I informed him that we've managed to get a place at nursery now (I didn't state the real reason as it's pointless). His response was equally flat and they will have a good moan / DM will have a temper tantrum. Anyway that's that, now I've told them about not needing their childcare anymore, I really have no need to contact them again.

A belated happy new year to everyone on this thread. Wishing you all lots of strength and peace in 2020.

rabbitcat it sounds like maybe that phone call confirmed to you what you already know about the relationship. Just watch out now, because you're the out of favour one just now but that will change (maybe once they realise you're not getting in contact, maybe once one of your siblings "disappoints" them) and you might get some hoovering attempts further down the line.

I have read so many posts on here and see so much of my childhood on here.
I have just started counselling and the reflection and remembering things about my childhood is very tough.
I believe that my mother is a narcissist and my father is her enabler.

So many things about my childhood have affected my ability to make friends or to have a proper relationship. I struggle to put boundaries in place or even how to communicate with others to form friendships.

I remember one incident when I was in hospital- I was about 8 and I was very ill. My mother just left me in the hospital. The doctors said to my mother i may have to go to theatre as an emergency tonight and my mother still went home and left me there. I remember her not getting me any dinner and a kind mother took me to get some food and made sure I was ok. I feel very abandoned since then.

She was very aggressive and my father was an alcoholic so we were always being hit and shouted at.

We were also very neglected and dirty. Always had head lice and as a result no children wanted to associate with us. My parents had no friends and I never developed the ability to make friends.

I know others here know what it is like to grow up in household like this and it is very hard especially when you have your own children and begin to reflect more about how your parents could treat you like that.

I have name changed as as I reveal more info on this thread I worry it will become too outing.

Since realising my father is narcissistic I feel really down and realise how "in the fog" I have been my entire childhood. I am 23 and feel completely stunted and unable to be a "proper adult". I need to move out but feel terrified to as silly as that sounds. I need to start applying for graduate schemes but feel too scared to.

Did anyone else go through some weird almost mourning phase when they realised how blind they had been to how horrible parts of their childhood was?

@rosebouquets yes it's totally normal I think, the realisation and the grief that goes with it, and disbelief and anger and all sorts! It's not nice to feel all of this but it's actually a really positive thing them at you are able to see things for what they are and act accordingly. When you don't see it is when you are at their mercy. It is horrible for you though and I feel for you. I'm working through all this shit myself and it's hard. Xx

Sorry, should've said 'that you are able to see'

rosebouquets I am just going through that grieving phase myself, having moved out again - I have moved out in the past but always had a breakdown and ended up back there for reasons I won’t go into.

It’s crucial to realise in many cases that they want you broken and dependent, believing you can’t live on your own. You can. You are so strong to have survived this and can put that strength towards living a life of freedom, of taking care of yourself and of optimism.

Hello,

I have read through some posts to try to get some clarity on how I'm feeling & would really appreciate any insight from others.

I thought I had the best childhood with the best parents. I idolised them. They always worked so hard & encouraged us to do well at school etc. Despite not having much money we never went without. My mum was has always been really thoughtful with buying little things she thinks we need etc making meals helping out and that's continued now that I have a child. My dad will always turn up anywhere you need him, so reliable and consistent.

However, me and my sister have never had a hug from our parents or been told that they love us. Ever. If I try to hug either of them it's so uncomfortable for them. Occasionally my mum will write Back I love you if I keep saying it in messages. Always criticised, never praised, literally never. Despite great achievements from me and my sister. No celebrations for us, no pride , at least not to our faces. If I asked my mum if She liked an outfit she would say it's ok my dad used to tell me I need to stop eating food to fit into clothes etc I used to think this was normal behaviour until I witnessed how others were with their kids.

The thing that's confusing me the most is why my dad never stands up for me, looks out for me , like other dads do and even more confusing is why my mum shouts at me is so nasty has no interest Won't help me when I'm desperate for help, when I'm begging her. She doesn't want to know and can be so cruel. But when I'm fine and happy she can't do enough for me. I've been through some very hard times in the la few years and it's like I'm always apologising for the stress I have caused my parents it's like I feel a burden. I'm told I shouldn't be sharing my problems as I'm moaning and shouting and blaming my mum and she's sick of it, when I'm just having a conversation as she does to me when she has something happening that's stressing her out? She gets so vicious and spiteful and makes horrible comments ruining my sons birthday because I was talking to a friend for ten mins while she looked after my son. Any other time there would be no problem. She was so nasty what she said to me She ignores me to make me feel guilty then she's fine again. I guess having a child has hit me so much about how odd all of this is. And that maybe I didn't have the childhood I thought I did. I've always felt like there's something inherently wrong with me. I've always been a happy person and I came home and didn't have a huge grin on my face my mum would say don't come in here like this but I wasn't miserable i just wasn't beaming. But it was fine for everybody else to serious? She's always told me it's not ok to be upset even after serious bad things happening. "Sort yourself out" "don't be pathetic" she's taught me I'm not allowed to feel any emotions and certainly not near her. She was so nasty to me recently that I've realised something has to change. I am single parent and I feel like I can't talk to her or anybody on the level I need to. I'm heartbroken. I've put my parents on a pedestal but I've realIsed that maybe they are the reason I've had such toxic negative relationships , why I hate myself so much , why I feel so lonely and empty. They're a huge part of my life and I don't know how to heal and not repeat this with my child yet maintain a healthy relationship with them. I wish I had a partner somebody there for me I wish I had parents that showed me love my head is spinning I'm questioning if it's me being precious and ungrateful ? Any insights would be greatly appreciated thank you

I told my brother that I'm not well and he can't come at the weekend (that he organised himself) I said maybe some other time.

I've realised that I don't have to see my family again and the relief is immeasurable though very sad that I'm completely alone in the world and moving towards middle age with no one.

I've also realised that I can't attend funerals which will start to happen in the next few years as most of my relatives are in their 70s and 80s as it would mean seeing my family.

I also can't have contact with my nephew, even though his mother has cut me out of communication with him and ignores me when I want to talk to him. I get no thanks for presents though I want to keep sending them as it's not his fault.

Lost12, I hear and I understand. I was left hungry, cold and uncared-for. It wasn't lack of money - my parents were not well-off although they still managed to find enough money for cigarettes and alcohol - but simply because I didn't matter. I had to learn very quickly to take better care of my own hygiene in primary school because the other kids bullied me for looking unkempt and being dressed in old clothes. It was humiliating then. I'm still humiliated by the memory. I also learned to squirrel away food, dry bread and salty crackers, for the times I was denied food. I was even denied water after 6pm which meant I spent my childhood in a state of dehydration. Fantastic for someone who learned much later in life that they have only one working kidney and even this has significantly reduced function.

I'm so sorry that this total failure of care happened to you too, that you were left to depend on the kindness of a stranger for basics.

You were failed on the most fundamental level by your parents - both of them - and yes, it throws it all into stark light when you have children of your own. You could never, would never, treat your children like that.

Doesn't it make you angry? On those occasions when I start to wonder if I am being a little hard on my mother or my late father, I remember those times and think, nope. They should have been locked up for what they did.

I'm glad you have started counselling. It's hard indeed having to remember again. The pain is still there but you are taking proactive steps to deal with it, and much credit to you. 💐

I told my brother that I'm not well and he can't come at the weekend (that he organised himself) I said maybe some other time.

You made the right decision, Parmesan. I'm sorry that you feel so alone but these people do not bring anything positive into your life and you would feel even more alone if you let them in. 💐

Hi Cloudyblues

You bumped an old and thus full Stately Homes thread. This is the current thread so this is the one you need to write on. Please feel free to write as much or as little as you choose to.

rosebouquets those bloody graduate scheme applications are bad enough if you're feeling on top, never mind if you have your family draining away your energy. My advice to you, if you can, is to take all that stuff out of the house and go to the local library or the uni careers service if you're near enough - they usually still let you use their resources after you've graduated. Get somewhere where you can put your work head on, you know?

rosebouquets

What toomuchtooold wrote. I would move out and as soon as you are able. Can you get your work head on at a friend's house or somewhere like a library?

It is not possible to have a relationship with someone like your dad and its not your fault he is the ways he is. The mourning phase you write of is certainly not unknown at all. You are grieving really for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

@user1463007194

No celebrations for us, no pride , at least not to our faces
Do you think they are singing your praises to others? I think a lot of people on here including me have had that - they tell everyone but you that they're soooo proud of you. If you have siblings they do it to you with each other. DH tells his parents he got a promotion, they can't wait to change the subject, but then when his brother phones up, that's all he hears about...

The thing that's confusing me the most is why my dad never stands up for me, looks out for me

It sounds to me like your dad is the enabler to your mother. He's nice as long as nothing much is asked of him, he just wants a quiet life?

She gets so vicious and spiteful and makes horrible comments ruining my sons birthday because I was talking to a friend for ten mins while she looked after my son. Any other time there would be no problem

My mum used to pull stuff like this and I tell you what I thought it was about: she was jealous of my happiness and wanted to mess it up for me, so she would manufacture some slight or bad behaviour or whatever and come over all offended. It was all shite. I'm imagining you at your DS' birthday, you mention you've had hard times, you and him would have been happy and surrounded by friends, it just sounds to me as if she wanted to piss on your chips, you know?

All of that, together with all the fair weather stuff where they seem to be happy to swoop in and play the loving parents when that's easy, and then have nothing but blows to offer when you actually need them, makes me think they are more interested in appearing to be nice parents than in actually being nice. I think you have the measure of them though. It does hit you when you have kids of your own doesn't it? Because it can be hard to explain to other people (especially when your parents have drummed into you that your problems are trivial, that you don't deserve sympathy) but when you see the difference, when you look at your own kids, it's just so obvious.

Have you checked out the links on the OP? The book Toxic Parents is really good, and the Out of the Fog website might ring some bells as well.

for the times I was denied food. I was even denied water after 6pm
the things you describe sound disturbing Singinglilly :(
People often speak as if we should be able to shrug off our childhoods but these things just get heavier over time, I feel, they weigh on us more as we get older

It's why I stockpile, Ulterego. I don't mean hoard - I'm a ruthless declutterer and nothing has sentimental value for me - but I stockpile food, water, toiletries. If there are fewer than 12 toilet rolls or 12 new bars of soap in the cupboard, I get jumpy. I batch cook and could feed the whole street from the freezer and still have enough left over for seconds. Daft, isn't it? But it's what I do to feel safe.

What a legacy.

@toomuchtooold

Thank you so much for replying. So much of what you say rings true. I guess I've never wanted to believe that my mum could feel that way towards me? That's my mum, you know. I hardly get out and see anybody, I'm studying hard atm, I'm on my own so much. She knows my son's birthday is a very emotional time for me, his father left when he was just born but now I'm wondering if she played a part in that too. But that day at his birthday, I was happy and proud and she was so nasty to me. She some really awful things that I can't even remember now but it hurt and ruined the day for me. When I look back now, as soon as I met my ex partner she was furious, she stopped talking to me, was so off with me, I tried so hard to get our relationship back to normal, took her for meals out etc and she'd sit in silence looking at me. I was living with them at the point paying rent and she made my life hell she was so nasty to me I had to move out in the end. What should have been a really happy time for me became an awful one as I couldn't work out what I'd done wrong ...it's like it's all coming together now. I feel like I've been brainwashed. You're so right about my dad too. I feel so heartbroken and lonely and confused. Thank you so much for Felton I will check out those links xx

@MarmadukeM You are definitely right in that it is a positive thing. I can already tell in my interactions with my Dad I am different and more protective of myself. I am still kind but I won't allow him to use me as his therapist anymore.

@CeciledeVolanges I definitely feel like my Dad encourage me to be dependent and living at home. However he will then use that against me and if I disagree with him he will tell me I should move out, even though I know that when I do eventually move out he will hate it. The night before I moved into university halls he told me he didn't want me to go to university, he would really miss me, etc. That is about the only time he has ever said anything as emotional as that to me so it was really unexpected and carried a lot of weight when I heard it. However, in retrospect I feel it was quite selfish and it was not the thing a nervous, anxious wreck of an 18 year old wants to hear the night before moving to university.

@AttilaTheMeerkat @toomuchtooold That is a great idea, next week I will go to the coffee shop or the library to work on my applications. I feel completely out of my depth with it all as neither of my parents are "career" people. Most of my childhood they were both unemployed/retired so I feel like I had no role model for being ambitious and driven so I am finding it hard to give myself the motivation and confidence to start applying.

I can definitely relate on the career stuff rosebouquets, no guidance or interest from them at all. They also made some stupid financial decisions (or rather my mother did, enabled by my dad) so I often had to bail them out once I did start working.

@rosebouquets I was similar - parents both working class normal jobs, it was quite a stretch doing those things. It's a good 10 years since I did a grad scheme application but I did get it (I worked in the pharma industry and then made a career change into banking in my 30s). If it woukd be any use to you to have another pair of eyes on your CV or application statements I would be very happy to have a look - just pm me.