"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Have any of you noticed that you are fiercly independent? I think I learned from a very young age that I couldn't rely on anyone else, and had a lot of responsibility heaped on me from a very young age. As a result I rarely let anyone 'in' I kep up a brick wall and find it very hard to trust others motives.

Even opening up here is difficult. But I think I need to start sharing so thank you for listening. I hope I can listen to you all too, even if I can't offer any advice right now.

My sibling B is.

Almost an island unto themselves, very unattached to anyone, emotionally distant, cold even.

B recommends this to me a lot but I find it hard to emulate.

Sorry that I haven't been back for a while, but I have been reading and learning from all your amazing insights. Every day, so much resonates with me. Today it's the thing about my friends (they are all just taking advantage, apparently, as no one could just like me for myself, which is why I've not mentioned a friend to her for years) and the gullibility. She gets flattered and taken in quite regularly.

I organised a pre-Christmas restaurant family meet-up in lieu of inviting them to my home, as I am still very low contact with them all. My mother sat next to me but said very little, mostly in that sad voice that some of you have mentioned (which can also turn into an Exorcist voice when thwarted!) Despite not seeing or talking to me for months, she never asked me anything about my life, or my children, but did blather on about inconsequential rubbish for a while. Mostly she just muttered quietly to her husband

I remembered that her next move would probably be an 'illness' and low and behold, two days later a soft hearted relative contacted me to tell me that my mother had confided in her earlier that day, that she was having tests for a mysterious ailment. Soft hearted relative suggested I phoned my mother but I replied that she obviously didn't want me to know as she hadn't told me herself...

No contact over Christmas was bliss, and it was mostly thanks to the posters on here who are so good at spotting the patterns of behaviour and so cleverly putting it into words. You've given me a backbone. Thank you all so much.

My granny called me Little Miss Independent, which isn't surprising as any vulnerability or request for support was always met with jeers and sneers, accusations of being A Drama Queen (the worst thing a woman could be, apparently) or manipulation. And it was always flung back at me.

Sweetest - yes! I am extremely independent, its sooo hard to open up, admit vulnerabilities or weakness or rely on anyone. I'm soooo profoundly hurt by my exDH because he made me believe i could rely on him....couldnt.

Sweetest, Polly, Pukeworthy - re the independence thing, yes, I sort of have this, as in I feel I need to do things myself rather than ask for help, although recently I have had to ask for help with some things, which I feel rather uncomfortable about. But my mum didn't deny me support; it was the other way round - she wanted to do everything for me, treat me like a child and convince me I couldn't cope without her. This wasn't helped by me having chronic fatigue issues on and off since my late teens, with a really bad relapse for several months when my DD was about 8 and mother was all too willing to take over the running of my house and 'parenting' DD, which I both intensely resented and felt very guilty about because I was too unwell to fight it and spent the subsequent years working up to eventually clawing back my autonomy, my recovery probably prolonged by my mother enabling me to 'rest otherwise you'll make yourself ill again' when I could have managed to do more if it hadn't required double the energy due to also feeling I had to justify, argue, defend and explain why I needed to do xyz myself and my way. I cannot overstate how much better it feels to get up every day and not be expected to give a constant running commentary of reasons for where I am where I am and why I'm doing what I'm doing.

Has anyone else read this?
parrishmiller.com/narcissists.html
I have often doubted that my mother is narcissistic, instead trying to explain her behaviour as being due to a deep-seated fear of abandonment and a sense of self-worth based on being needed by those around her. Narcissistic seemed like an unfair word to use. But reading the above article, her behaviour fits with so many of the points. Not the denying adequate clothing or medical care as she always gave me a lot of sympathy for being sick, if anything a kind of dysfunctional encouragement that being sick gets you attention and you need to put it on a bit for the doctor otherwise they won't give you antibiotics, that kind of thing. And she did buy nice gifts when we were kids. So much of the rest of the article though, I was reading thinking, 'Oh hell yes, that. And that. And that. Uh huh, that too...' But I think she managed to present as being so caring and kind and loving because I was so well trained to be compliant that the horrible behaviour only became more apparent when I no longer toed the line. Think in my teens/20s I was probably her flying monkey/had caught fleas if that's the expression and I'm still worried that if I'm not careful I might become like her. Is this anyone else's experience?

Oh my goodness yesshecan i could have written most of your post, especially the bit about sickness and putting it on to the doctors to get antibiotics. This happened to me so much I'm now resistant to a main type of antibiotic. Illness was treated as special in our house, so i had loads of sick days from school that needn't have been. I really want to promote good health and resilience in my kids, not enjoy weakness and nonparticipation.

I also used to get accused of being a drama queen or showing off. One time when i was about 8 we were at a cafe where she knew the owner and would go with her friends. She convinced me to order a smoked salmon and avocado sandwich, which in the late 80s was pretty out there, and i said i liked it only to please her. She then would tell anyone who would listen that her daughter ordered this, wasn't she so fancy (taking the absolute piss out of me) and never listened when i said i didn't really like it as it didn't fit her narrative. She set the whole thing up as some sort of performance and it was just to shame me.

So....I've skim read that and saved it to go back to.

I recognise elements of my DM, but as ever, it's Sibling A to a T, apart from direct parent stuff.

One really stood out at me "manipulates your emotions to feed on your pain"

So many times A has orchestrated situations purely to hurt and embarrass me and shows a visible thrill at believing they succeeded.

It is like engaging with a persona or a mask not a person, whatever character they've chosen to be that day

Ironically, I found a more succinct list that I intended to show my DM and say "see" and right then A became seriously ill, so I've never really called it out and they've become so enmeshed now I doubt it would work.

Reading the narc link through my fingers, i dont want it to be true point one though about couching slamming if me in caring terms - check - and having people say 'she always speaks so highly if you to me' - check! And, i got thus thrown in my face the other day "i have to defend you to other people!" "What, why?" ...gave me a reason that i dont think needed to be defended at all?

It's this easy. Tell her to fuck off in your mind. And then let go.

Something else: my parents never came to parent teacher nights, not one ever. They just decided that I was doing well, so didn't bother to find out. The teachers all found it really weird and some seemed worried now that I look back on it.

I also always felt on edge, like dm was about to make a scene. She still can get just enjoy our company, instead she looks around and makes "funny" (really not) comments as if it's all a show for her entertainment. I used to hate her talking to other kids when i was young because i could see how much they hated it, but despite her knowing that she kept doing it. Even laughs at us now about how we used to hate it. Honestly zero self reflection or insight. Also thought my db and i misbehaved (had fun noisily) to irritate her, like we had her in the forefront of our minds when we were having fun together. I even tell her repeatedly now that it didn't enter our minds, but she's adamant it was all about her.

Oh and we were expected to be Good, but mostly never had any information about what that entailed. Usually sitting quietly and sweetly to her pleasure. But we didn't have a curfew, so i stayed out late at about 15 yo, and my parents went ape shit because I'd crossed the invisible Late line. I think they couldn't be bothered to come up with systems and maintain them, instead waiting until we fucked up and were screamed at to learn the rules. I ended up sleeping with lots of boys in my teens, my self esteem was so low and at least i enjoyed it, but i put myself in some really dangerous situations at i had no sense of safety or self worth to protect.

Also thought my db and i misbehaved (had fun noisily) to irritate her, like we had her in the forefront of our minds when we were having fun together

That sounds familiar. It's the hallmark of narcissism I think, to believe that everything that people do is done at you. They really see themselves as the centre of the universe.

I also had the unwritten rules. I felt wuth my mother is was partly the sort of passive, unhealthy way my parents got used to living - never take the initiative in anything, never say anything out loud about relationships - and partly that she had this idealised view of what a mother-daughter relationship should be like, where there would never be any differences of opinion so no need for rules.

Rainbow - the parents evening thing, it seems a bit petty doesnt it but it actualky hurts, uts another little instance of neglect. Esp. When they go to a sibling's, but not yours

Morning all. Everything I did expect for sitting in a chair reading (although there was probably something wrong with that too) was misbehaving. It was impossible for me to be good.

I remember once I was shopping with a friend (probably early teens) and my friend was laughing and my mother happened to pass us in the street at the same time. She came over to say hello (which basically involved her doing this horrible twisted fake smile while all the time just looking down her nose.).

When I got home I got so told off. 'You need to act more ladylike'. 'It's unbecoming to act like that'. 'It's embarrassing for your father andI I to have you behaving like that' 'You should be ashamed of yourself' On and on and on. For years and years.

All because she'd heard my friend laughing in the street.

Oh and my parents used to go to parents evening. But for days beforehand I'd feel sick with worry incase one of my teachers said even the slightest negative thing about me.

Because I just knew there was going to be a telling off, the silent treatment, or the 'we're so disappointed in you' talk.

And I've just remembered my parents would always (over) dress up for parents evening. Like they were going to some formal event. Ha - I wonder what the teachers who were all a bit left wing and militant back then thought of them!! Complete tossers probably.

"It's embarrassing for your father and I to have you behaving like that"

Ah, because what "other people think" is so important. "What would the neighbours say?" was a favourite expression of my mother's because it not only allowed her to express disapproval or disgust at anything I did or wanted to do, but it gave what she felt was an unarguable weight to the absolute moral certainty of her decisions by invoking the invisible support of an imaginary crowd of people who naturally agreed with everything she said.

The truth is, our actual neighbours - you know, the real ones, in real life - were decent people and would probably have been pretty appalled at some, if not most, of the things she said and did.

It suddenly feels like its been a very long month, in fact a very long year, and lets just get on with 2020 now.

Got back from my DM's yesterday which was lovely. DD1 told me she'd overheard us talking about my F, which was careless of me but probably inevitable. Not sure what she heard but it meant I had to tell her that I'd decided not to be in touch with him. I said things he'd said and done over a long time felt like bullying and didn't make me feel good, and I had started to see signs that he was being like it with them. I said I didn't think he was a horrible man but perhaps his emotions haven't developed properly, and on the other hand he is a grown up so should know how to behave. I said I was sorry that it meant she wouldn't really have a GF now. She shrugged and said "it's fine". She didn't want to talk about it (think could see I found it difficult and didn't want that).

On top of that, DH had noticed F had sent a card (he opened it and put it up, but its so bland that he obviously didn't take it in at the time), and decided to show me that it was a dove of peace. I refused to look, and he asked if he should throw it away. "Yes!" I know it should already have been in the bin. And the really crappy thing is that I still yanked it out later just to check it was as bland as I thought ("All the best for 2020"). Which is a relief honestly, I don't want some begging for forgiveness letter now, I just want genuine NC.

Today we go away for 2 nights which I planned ages ago, thought it would make a nice change, but now realise homebird DD2 has only slept in her own bed once in the last week, and REALLY doesn't want to go away again. She had a panic attack last night. The rest of us are looking forward to it, and its too much money spent already on things booked to change our minds now, but can see her being hard work (sorry, that sounds horrible, I don't mean it like that, but DD1 will get very frustrated with her and its a balancing act). I'm offloading, not relevant to this thread, just feeling worn out, sorry, so many much bigger problems you all have. It is part of my 'habit' of trying to create perfect family experiences, then anxiety when they then aren't perfect for everyone, and its all my fault. And inability to look forward to it because I already have it in my head that it'll be a let down.

Anyway, in case I don't post again today/tomorrow, a Happy New Year to all you amazing, strong people and I hope 2020 brings some peace. Thank you for helping me through 2019, I'd be in a very different (mental) place without you.

Parents evenings: meant my parents had to be together pretending to be civilised to each other for a couple of hours which made my heart pound, I can feel that anxiety now. And main memory is my F insisting on seeing my RE teacher because I'd not got an A in that, when it clearly wasn't a subject I was going to continue with - she asked me why on earth he wanted to see her, as she knew I had no real interest in it. Because he had to make a point of picking out what I wasn't doing well in... not the Maths or English or History or Geography that were straight As. No praise, ever.

I ended up sleeping with lots of boys in my teens, my self esteem was so low and at least i enjoyed it, but i put myself in some really dangerous situations at i had no sense of safety or self worth to protect.

This was completely me. Then drunken crying to nice young man who had no idea how to deal with this mess of a person, and thought it was going to just be a bit of fun.

Don't worry too much about your DD, Freshstart. I reckon that the space to not enjoy a holiday is an even nicer thing to give your kids than the actual holiday

@FreshStart01 Yep - always a beeline for a teacher who have something negative to say.

Do you know what though? I think my teachers knew there was something very wrong at home, behind the veneer of the well-to-do middle class family.

There are a number of things that happened when I was at school when teachers took the time to protect me or to nurture me or make that extra effort. They were all so very kind too. Maybe they were just doing their job but I also wonder if they could spot kids like us because of experience.

I have always forever been grateful to my wonderful teachers. At the time they were the only adults in my life who ever listened or had any time for me.

I also look back and think, "what the hell was I doing having sex with that guy".

The long list of awful guys and dangerous situations that I put myself in. I just had absolutely no sense of any worth.

The guy I had sex with - who then lef tthe room and told his friend to go in and have sex with me. I said to the second guy "what are you doing here!" And he said "first guy told me to come in".

Sex with the guy who sexually assaulted me.

Sex with the guy who pushed me into having sex when I didnt want to.

Sex with the guy who called me a slut after

Sex with a guy who called me a bitch agter

Sex with the guy who pushed me into having sex I didnt want

Sex with the guy who pushed me into having sex without a condom.

I wince when I look back at the very bad list of my younger years. I used to think that I was unlucky - that I always met bad guys.

But I see that they were just a symptom of my incredibly low self esteem.

And my incredibly low self esteem was due to my family. Thanks family. My father and grandparents both abandoned me, and my mum was abusive. I used to think that I was worth absolutely nothing.

I still look back on myself with love though. I have finally learned not to have sex with a man unless he is a nice person. And to take some time to judge his character first. Not put myself in dangerous situations.

I send love to all of you who are learning to love themselves like me

Does anyone else look back at the list if men they had sex with when younger and think oh my god they were so bad.

I have finally learned not to have sex with someone who is not a decent human being