"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
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December 2013
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November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

My DM used to try and be friends with my friends. She would desperately try and present herself as this cool, trendy fun mum and was totally different with them than she was with us.

Also does anyone else’s DMs mood change like the wind? Mine can be happy and full of the joys of spring almost OTT hyper one moment and then quiet, sulky, sullen the next, It can happen literally in minutes, and to me at least there is no rational explanation for it although something, probably very minor, must have happened to provoke it. It’s like treading on egg shells.

hands up to sex with dodgy older guys in unsafe situations when younger. I just drank up the attention i think? Luckily they were all just your basic users wanting a shag with a nice desperate young thing rather than out and out violent nasties. I was stealthed once but never raped.

@pukeworthy I think I did it because:

Low self esteem made me pick terrible men
And then I thought I had to have sex with them for them to stay.

But I love for that girl that I used to be.

I only go for nice guys now. It is so important to go for nice guys - because these are the people that we are letting into our body and into our lives. I have learned along the path of loving myself.

Yes - another one who had sex with a load of losers. I think I thought if I had sex with a man he would magically fall in love with me.

I had no idea how adult relationships or love for that matter worked.

Angell 💐

Terrible men, terrible "friends". And the layers of secrecy I grew up in, a totally enclosed family that prevented a long long list of things from being aired - it made it impossible to confide in anybody, even if there had been someone there to listen and not just judge.

Wow, that narcissist link was enlightening. I could definitely recognise a fair few of those descriptions in several family members.

I wonder if our families know they are the way they are, and wish they could change anything, or if they are oblivious to the hurt they have caused.

I have always been the sort of person who tries to see the good in people, and even now that I am realising how toxic certain elements of my childhood were, I still can see some good in each person that has caused me pain.

I'd be so sad if my children grow up feeling in any way about me that I have felt about my family, I know that I have raised them very differently to the way I was raised, but still worry about not being perfect, and making mistakes. But I do know that they are my absolute priority, which I never was to my family. I just hope that loving them and doing my best and putting them first is enough. And that my pain doesn't get transferred on to them. I hope recognising what we went through, and trying to learn from it, and what not to do is a good place to start. Its scary though.

My brother came to see me this morning. I thought it was a shopping delivery so opened the door. Apparently my family thought something had happened to me and if I didn't answer the door were going to call the police.

My brother said he's going to come and stay with me for a few days and I'm not sure what to do. I thought it might be a good opportunity to talk to him about their abuse and the way I've been treated and make it clear that it's unacceptable or I could just say that I have plans and not let him stay.

I am under no illusion that my relationship with my family is going to become nonabusive.

I don't think I'd want a flying monkey staying in my house with me Parmesan, he has been sent by them to do their bidding, he is working for them
His goal or his mission is to bring you back under control, you might think that you can make him switch sides but it's unlikely and even if you do you are still playing their game on their terms

Your home, your rules, Parmesan.

Did your brother turn up because he was worried about you? Or did your parents send him?

The first suggests a possible ally and support. The second screams Flying Monkey.

Ah, cross post with Ulterego.

This sounds to me like your family is staging an intervention Parmesan, your brother has decided (without consulting you) that he will impose himself on you in your own home for a few days, you believe that if you can only put your side of the story to him he will see it from your point of view but you are not taking into account the fact that he has been sent for the purposes of persuading you that you are wrong.
That's how it looks to me based on the information you've given so far

I think I took the opposite approach to some of you when it came to boys and relationships. I was afraid to let anyone get close to me so I was into my 20s before I had a boyfriend. I think it was partly because I didn't want them to see my crazy mother, and partly because I had certain hang ups having grown up in a religious household. My Dad really used religion as a crutch, and as an excuse for sticking with my mother and 'protecting the family.'

I posted recently about my mother being ill and the confused feelings it stirred up. We've since got a clearer picture of what we're dealing with - an aggressive malignant brain tumour that can't be operated on. Radiotherapy will be offered but due to her age and poor health she might not be able to tolerate it. All it would do is buy time anyway, but we're looking at months rather than years.

My mother's mental illness mostly causes her to be difficult and inappropriate rather than mean and abusive, and that makes the guilt even worse. She's very hard work and draining to be around, but at the moment my sister and I are taking turns so she has a visit every day. She's very vulnerable and tends to ignore bad news so I really don't know how she's going to cope with a terminal illness. I'm more concerned with that then with having her gone, as in some way it will be a relief that it's all over and we'll all finally have some peace. Then of course I feel bad for thinking that.

Dad's dementia had taken a turn for the worse in the same week Mum got her diagnosis. He is at least in a care home and is well looked after, but it's just another stress on top of a very full plate.

It feels very strange to be in my mid thirties and effectively have no parents. I never really had much of a mother but she's almost gone, and the one half decent parent I had has effectively been gone for the last six years.

None of my friends have lost one parent, let alone two, and they had normal upbringings. It's really hard not to feel resentful about it all, especially with all this shit happening in Christmas week. I'm just so fed up of it all, and constantly having to deal with things that are so much bigger than any of my friends can comprehend with their lovely families.

Sorry, just had to have a vent!

Thank you for your support. My mother actually turned up around the 21st and put a note through the door asking me to get in contact which I didn't and blocked her new number.

My sister actually thanked me for the gift I sent her child for the first time ever.

Now my brother has turned up. He came quite a way and didn't stay, just half an hour. I'm not sure if he's a flying monkey and if he was, there's no way I'm backing down. I'm not getting back in contact with my mum as she's too detrimental to my mental health. I've noticed that my social anxiety is a lot better since I had no contact with her. I don't think my brother would try to convince me to, he normally doesn't bring things like that up.

I would have to tell him why I wasn't in contact with him and why I'd been ignoring him since I last saw him. It's to do with his behaviour, how he sides with everyone else but me and I feel very betrayed by him. He's done a lot of nasty things for me to get to his point and his partner is a nasty person as well, was very jealous of our relationship which used to be very close and always making snide remarks about me. Doesn't like me in the house eg 'When is she leaving?' As soon as she sees me.

I think I'm going to tell him that I'm busy.

Hi everyone, I'm looking for a bit of reassure ance and think this is the place to come.

I have always had a difficult relationship with my dad. He has always been very controlling, opinionated and domineering. But he also plays the victim a lot. When I was 18 he and my mum separated. Despite having a really miserable childhood because of him, he rang me constantly saying he was suicidal and how confused he was about the divorce. I spent 5 or 6 nights a week in my first year of uni on the phone to him for hours just talking and listening. I didn't really want to but felt bad that he had no one else. That was over 20 years ago and since then our relationship has been OK, but he as a person has got harder and harder to deal with. He is very self centred, openly racist and homophobic and always treats my like a child.

6 months ago we fell out because I stood up to him on an issue about my son and he didn't like it. He then publically slated me on Facebook numerous times so I decided to go NC. To be honest, 5 months of not dealing with him was such a relief. My anxiety has reduced massively and I've felt much more relaxed. Then 2 days before Christmas he rang me and said we should "stop all the sillyness" and that he was sorry if he offended me. I thanked him for apologising. However, in the next 4 days I had 17 missed calls from him. My anxiety flared up again over Christmas and he seems to be all I can think/worry about. Every time the phone rings and I see its him I get panicy. It's just a feeling of uncontrollable fear but I know there's no tangible reason to be scared. I don't really have anything to say to him and although I've accepted his apology, I don't actually want anything more to do with him. Especially after things he has said about my 4 year old son. So I have set my phone to ensure any calls from him go straight to voicemail. I don't want to talk to him, I don't want to see him but if he were ill in hospital I would be there. It just seems to have to be all or nothing with him and I can't cope mentally with the "all". I have read about the Fear/Obligation/Guilt that narcissistic parents use to control their children and this 100% sums up how I feel.

I'm sure I'm doing the right thing by going NC again, but it's still hard. I still feel like I'm "misbehaving" by doing it. I'm sure others here have gone through this - did it get easier?

Sorry that's long and the paragraphs disappeared

Hi @MaryBoBary yes I have/am feeling this way. Got the 'silent treatment' in August and after 2 months of it I issued a NC statement and that's the last I heard from them, so coming up 2 months since then. Yeah I identify totally with the 'misbehaving' feeling. It's a 'if they aren't alright I can't be alright' type of thing. But I do see it as irrational and also as evidence of how our relationship was very one sided and unhealthy. Do you find you have days where you feel strong, justified in your decision and (dare we say, 'happy?!') which then swings back into guilt, self critical inner talk and massive self doubt? I think it's all part and parcel of the process and there doesn't seem to be a concrete solution or timescale. I see a therapist weekly and that is helping tremendously, she has said though that it is likely I will never be 100% 'happy' about as it's not what i want, but I will be ok with it given time. I do believe time is a great healer (I know that's a cliche but they are generally cliches as there truth in them). There are lots of people on here who have been NC for a lot longer and I'm sure it will be helpful to get their perspective- if you read back through the previous threads it does seem like time and distance are really helpful in coming to be at peace with it all. Xxx

@angel I had sex with a lot of undesirables back in the day. I used to drink myself to oblivion and just go off with whoever showed an interest to be honest. I think I thought if I did then they would want me and protect me from my stepfather (naive I know). All it did was make my self esteem even lower so I'd go out and repeat the whole alcohol/sex/mortification cycle on a regular basis. I used to be really ashamed about it but now I can see I was looking for something or other and had zero self worth, I thought that was how to get a bloke to like me. Since I met my husband 17 years ago my life changed loads, he made me feel worthy of love and it all went from there really (I think I did get lucky not to attract a narc like; could have v easily happened, I am sure, with hindsight, I wanted an alpha male type to rescue me from my family) x

Thank you @MarmadukeM. Yes that's exactly how I feel, 1 day I'm proud of myself that at nearly 30 years old I'm standing up to him and for myself. Then the next day I feel guilty and like I'm being a bad daughter and doubt myself. Is he really that bad? Am I being dramatic? Luckily everyone that knows him supports me in going Nc but I still get doubts.

I used to write things down, Mary, memories that bubbled up after being suppressed for so long. I didn't try to edit what I was writing - just let it flow. All the anger and the anxiety and the injustice and the helplessness I felt as a child and later as a teenager and young adult - it all went in my journal.

However, I kept a special section in that journal for the most upsetting memories, ones I've never shared, even on here.

On those days when I felt the same as you - doubting myself, thinking I was being harsh or over-dramatic - I'd read that section again. It made adult-me so angry and so protective of the child-me and it reminded me exactly why I went NC in the first place.

toomuchtooold Thank you for that, the importance of giving my DD space NOT to enjoy a holiday, I'm keeping that in my head and will forever more! It doesn't have to be perfect for everyone, she's allowed to have her own opinion.

I think I'm going to tell him that I'm busy.

I think that's a great idea, Parmesan. Onward and upward for the New Year, and don't look back.

In fact, to everyone on here, wherever you are and whatever the challenges you face, my very best wishes to you for 2020 and my sincere hope that in the New Year, you find some measure of peace.

🍷 🍫 ☕️🍰

angell84 I had absolutely no clue about relationships by the time I left home for uni at 19. I don't cringe so much about the men I had sex with as the intense emotional reaction I had when things didn't work out with guys I liked. And yet I'd go out with guys I wasn't particularly attracted to because I would feel so flattered if someone showed an interest in me and having someone want to be your boyfriend felt like an achievement, and achievement was my whole thing. I look back and think, 'why were you with them?' about most of my past relationships but at the time I guess I thought, 'this is how you adult, you find someone who likes you and make them want to stay with you' without giving any thought as to what I wanted or needed from a relationship, and when anything happened that I didn't feel good about, I stuffed it down and felt I couldn't complain because a good girlfriend would not complain or be demanding, until eventually all my resentment would come out and the guy would apparently not understand why I was upset. I still find it very difficult and anxiety-inducing to initiate conversations about relationship issues.

I still feel like I'm "misbehaving" by doing it. I'm sure others here have gone through this - did it get easier?
Mary, imo you feel like that because he has trained you to obey him, when you get impulses to contact him/back down/defer to him remember that it's your programming 'exerting' itself.
It's a bit like an addict reaching out for the drug, as you resist these impulses they will diminish, also in common with addictions it is helpful to avoid exposure to 'cues' that's why blocking is so helpful, you have to shut him out completely.
he rang me constantly saying he was suicidal and how confused he was about the divorce. I spent 5 or 6 nights a week in my first year of uni on the phone to him for hours just talking and listening. I didn't really want to but felt bad that he had no one else
this is appalling, there you were getting your first taste of freedom, spreading your wings, your parents should be 'the wind beneath your wings' (i know it's a cheesy phrase) that fucker was trying to shoot you down, swamp you with his misery, how could he impose himself on you like that, it's despicable.
LET HIM ROT

marybobary I had similar experience with my mum at university - my parents separated just before I left home although things had been bad for years. She wanted me to call her every evening and would talk for ages about how horrible my dad was, later how horrible her boyfriend was, how her life had always been so hard, wanting to know everything about what I was up to as gossip to cheer her up, sometimes telling me she felt like going to sleep and never waking up - it was all very guilt inducing and I would feel so responsible for her upset that I seriously contemplated leaving uni to go back home during the first term. After her phone calls I'd feel so drained and go out and get really drunk and snog/mess around with various guys then feel like an idiot afterwards.
Anyway I'm nearly 40 now and made decision to go NC almost 18 months ago. I do not feel guilty. It was definitely the right thing to do. It took several sessions of therapy before I could properly stand up to her and I suspect I need more. But you can resolve the guilt and it does get easier

if he were ill in hospital I would be there
dont go, he will feign illness to reel you in so be warned.
Anyone that call's you 17 times in 4 days is batshit, is that the way a father treats his daughter? No, it's the way a stalker treats his prey (and that's why you feel so scared, he's prowling around like a fox trying to get at a hen)
He doesnt treat you like a daughter and so you dont have to treat him like a parent, he's just some weirdo and the best thing to do is stay off his radar.
What he calls 'sillyness' is you taking steps to protect yourself, in his mind you dont matter at all, he is the important one and this is what directs and governs his actions.