"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
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March 2011
November 2011
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October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

it was all very guilt inducing and I would feel so responsible for her upset that I seriously contemplated leaving uni to go back home during the first term
and that is what she wanted, to sabotage your bid for freedom and a life independent of her where you might fly above and beyond her, they cant bear it and so they try to shoot you down.
Fly higher and fire back with missiles if you have to

Ulterego she didn't want me to leave uni, she chosen my degree and career path (a high status one presumably so she could carry on telling people how wonderful her daughter was as that reflected well on her?) But she wanted me at uni nearby so I could go home often and I was expected to ace my course and listen to her daily offloading and rush home whenever my younger sibling had a crisis because mum needed support dealing with it. She did sabotage my attempt to go to uni much further away to do a different course though.

yellowlemon I think I thought if I had sex with a man he would magically fall in love with me. I had no idea how adult relationships or love for that matter worked.'

Yep, same

YesShecan your mother tried to prevent you living life for yourself, she wanted to keep you tied to her, working for her benefit, give her your spare energy rather than investing in yourself

Ulterego - yes I have said myself that it feels like harassment, so many phone calls. Why not leave a message or text? Because he doesn't really have anything to say, just likes the control of me answering the phone to him. Before we fell out, if I missed a call from him, when I rang him back (which would always be ASAP) I would get sarcastic comments like "I thought the whole point of a mobile phone is that you can always answer? Don't you keep it in your pocket?" etc. But he was never ringing with anything to say. Me not talking to him does put added pressure on my sister, but he still will only ring her once per fortnight, not multiple times per day. I think it's because he knows he can/in the past has always been able to control me easier. I cave to the pressure and guilt trips where my sister doesn't. Even though she's younger she is much tougher than me. Thank you so much for the support, it's helping me to stop doubting.

Ulterego I know. Suppose it's pointless trying to figure out why a parent will do that. What scares me is that I'll manage to make my daughter's life miserable and not realise I'm doing it. Are there any good books on how not to do this?!

I see a lot of people have had therapy/counselling on this thread. It's something my OH has always said could help me but I think I've refused as I see it as a sign of weakness or worry the counsellor will think I'm being silly. But I'm feeling so proud of my self for putting my foot down that maybe I should keep up the momentum and book a session.

maybobary having therapy is definitely not a sign of weakness but I know a lot of people feel that way, especially if you've been raised to feel uncomfortable about asking for help. This is only my experience and other posters may have other suggestions but I had cognitive analytic therapy and found it very helpful. My therapist recognised how enmeshed I was with my mother and helped me to see that I had the power to live my own life. I had it privately so had to pay and it wasn't cheap. But there may be free therapy options depending on where you live

Hi, hoping to get some insight to my experiences and a handhold as I am in the process of going NC with my parents and siblings. I've posted before under other names but really want to post to say this feels like the last straw and deep down I now know what I need to do what's right for me and my "actual" family (DH and DD).

I can really relate to the signs of having a narcissistic mother and I am only realising in the last few years that I have deeply buried trauma and troubled ways of thinking as a result of my childhood and continued emotional abuse from my mother. I'm trying to arrange a psychotherapist to help me work through all the trauma (I can only describe it as that) and start my new life in 2020! Please I'd be grateful for thoughts on what I have experienced and is this narcissistic / emotional abuse and the consequences of such or am I just a 40 year old snowflake?

Some examples:

• Having to witness temper tantrums by mother throughout my childhood. All siblings all sat around frozen, no eye contact with anyone. I still remember the exact feeling of sitting there just choosing one spot on the carpet or one object to stare at, until it would be over.
• Having to be very independent from a young age, never even crossing my mind to ask for anything or show any sort of need (I think there is some comments about this further up the thread)
• Feeling lonely as hell despite having lots of siblings and not equipped to form friendships. No family friends or relatives around (because parents don't seem able to get on with anyone). Any relationship with relatives come and go and always end up with DM arguing with them.
• Once I started earning my own money, feeling obliged to give a lot to my parents as "paying back". Then being shouted at for doing so.
• Being ignored on two birthdays in a row in the last 2 years because I clearly did wrong, not that was being communicated to me.
• Being told that my birth was not complicated or traumatic (I spent 7 days on HDU) as she had given birth so many times.
• Being told at every opportunity whatever I've done for DD is not as good as what she could do (too many examples to name)
• Being told I'm the "only good child", having to listen to crying down the phone about her worries, relationship with DF, relationship with siblings, having to calm her down during temper tantrums (all my teenage and adult life - even having to listen to this when I was heavily pregnant).
• In contrast to the above, more recently given the silent treatment - ignored when me/DH collect DD (yes big mistake to use them as childcare). Latest was over the Xmas holiday when we were both ignored whilst she and SIL opened a very large present for DD.

Sorry that's a very long post - thanks if you've even skim read it. It's just a taste of what I'm working through and even just a record for me as I'm gathering every bit of strength within me to go NC.

I suppose therapy could be seen as an admission of weakness, or you can frame it differently, eg it is a sign of wisdom strength and personal insight to recognize that you are not all that you could be.
Or it could be seen as a way of acknowledging that you are important enough for your issues to deserve the consideration of someone who has expertise.

Rabbitcat
it sounds as if they have all made you the scapegoat, you have nothing to lose surely by cutting loose from all of them, we are here to hold your hand.
Make 2020 the year you see everything with clear eyes, 20:20 vision

Cherrycee I'm really sorry to hear about your mum and dad. It is hard. I lost my dad to cancer when I was in my early 30s and my friends were just a bit crap, they didn't seem to get it at all. I had one friend who had already lost both parents and she was the only person who remembered to ask how things were. People are so bloody awkward. It might be worth, if you have time, looking into grief counselling or just talking to likes of Marie Curie - they were fantastic when my dad was ill, and unlike likes of Macmillan, they focus on terminal cancer, which helped us. They were also great for practical help.

Right, well it's 8 o'clock here so I am going to head off and possibly have a couple of small refreshments to mark the day so Happy New Year to you all when it comes, and I wish for you all, better, FOG-free days to come in 2020.

Cheers

toomuch

@MaryBoBary

Therapy was the best thing I haven't changed and nor have my family, but I'm under no illusions now, as hard and as heartbreaking as some of what I realised was, as to who they all are, and importantly WHY they are like that.

Unfortunately I come from generational abuse. My parents parented very badly but they themselves had shocking examples of what a parent should be.

Better the devil you know....

Thinking of everyone here tonight. I'm so grateful for these threads and the amazing people here. Sincerest best wishes for the coming year.

Are there any good books on how not to do this?!

YesSheCan, my DSis lent me her copy of The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read (and Your Children Will Be Glad You Did) by Philippa Perry. Herocomplex suggested it to me some time ago when I was really struggling. I'm only part-way through it (I read a chapter then stop and reflect before I read the next chapter) but it's really making me think.

DSis is terrified of repeating our mother's poor parenting with her two but she says it's really helped her to be a better mum.

Thank you toomuchtooold, I will look into those suggestions.

I hope everyone who has been finding the last few weeks difficult will have a much better time of it in 2020

singinglily ah yes, I'd heard of this book and thought at the time I really should read it, then forgot. Thanks for reminding me amd glad it's helping you.

Happy New Year and hopefully peace of mind to you all in 2020 amd onwards

Ive read the Phillipa Perry book, I really loved it. It details the ways you can help your child feel safe, heard and nurtured. One of the things that hit me was a way to be the container for your child's emotions, not to react and have your own big emotional performance (my mum's go to reaction) but to listen and contain it so they can let off steam in a safe space. Also allowing kids to feel their feelings, name them and help them through it rather than to ignore it or try to cheer them up. It's all about making emotional space for them and giving them that opportunity to grow in a loving and understanding home.

Spent several hours with DM last night, DB and his DP popped around earlier in the evening and honestly it’s like some scales have fallen from my eyes. DM brings everything back to herself, they’d been out for a meal and DM starts going on about when she went there for a meal ages ago, then DF starts telling a funny story and DM obviously knowing what he’s going to say interrupts and takes over telling it herself. She has to hold court in every social situation, always the centre of attention, all adoring eyes on her. Why has it taken me so long to work it out?

She also talks in a different voice. A performance style voice, like an actress. Is this a thing does anyone know?

Manonblackbeak yes to the performing voice. I've often thought i just wish she'd talk in her normal voice rather than acting..

RainbowSlide Yes, it’s grating isn’t it? Why can’t they just talk in their normal voices?

I find her need to be liked and adored by everyone grating as well, I genuinely couldn’t give a toss what people think of me anymore. If they like me great, if they don’t well that’s fine because people have a right not to like me.

Could it be due to their lack of a true sense of self? If they don't know who they truly are, every interaction becomes a sort of act, to convince others of whatever persona they are trying to portray. And the main thing they want to be is the most perfect person in the world. That is certainly how my mother seems to be.

For 2020, I hope that everyone here continues to gain in strength to cope with these toxic families. Talking here really does help.

Myself and my children are facing our first new year without my husband. Myself and one child are doing OK, the other two, less so. Not having supportive parents on either side makes it so much harder. In a better world, they would be here for us.

So sorry to hear that dippydog flowers

Yes, I think you may be right about the lack of true sense of self now I think about it. Always so loud, shouty, shreiking laughter, talking over everyone else, dominating every conversation.

Im probably being a bit naughty now, but I try and slap her down a bit during these moments. It doesn't really stop her, but Ive noticed often other people will laugh. I wonder if really they just think she's a bit of annoyance and are tolerating it out of being polite.

I know this sounds a little trite, but I'm genuinely thinking of you all today, indeed the last fortnight.

I also didn't crack under the pressure and haven't visited parents or my brother over the festive period, just had the "we're amazing parents, you're an ungrateful son" Xmas and birthday cards.

Here's to standing your ground, Steve. Christmas and your birthday will always be difficult, difficult times for you but I'll warrant they will have been a little bit better this time, simply because your birth family were not there. Please please may this be your year.

I've just done my duty phone call to M - haven't spoken to her in a month but felt obliged to do so today. My stomach was knotted up beforehand but I did it to get it out of the way. Grey rock is doing its work. She was patently bored with me. I'll wait until the obligation starts nagging before I ring her again but it's getting longer and longer between bouts. She's just another task on my "to do" list. Frankly, I'd rather clean the oven or descale the shower head - at least I'd be able to see something positive for my efforts - but it's done now.

Wishing peace and quiet for everyone today.