"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
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August 2013
December 2013
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Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Angst,
What you describe of your mother makes me think of 'black and white thinking' or the inability to be at all nuanced, people are either very good or very bad and once that judgement has been made everything is interpreted in the light of it, also a lack of insight, inability to reflect on her own behaviour and beliefs
I suppose much of this comes back to a lack of intelligence or education?

This all or nothing approach, and having to view things in terms of extremes also seems like an expression of the need to draw attention to yourself, elevate your own status, nothing can be moderate or ordinary or boring it always has to be framed as very good or very bad

Lack of insights seems to a common theme - I suppose it is connected to lack of empathy.

Long, long ago - before I even knew that how I had been brought up wasn't normal - I used to cringe at my mother telling these 'cool story bro' stories to people, usually accompanied by either jabbing a finger in their face, putting on this weird 'mysterious voice', or the flirtatious grin.

How she couldn't see their eyes glazing over and their general uncomfortableness I could never understand.

The mad thing was I used to be so embarrassed by it and think they would think I was also an idiot by virtue of her behaviour. They probably just felt sorry for me.

Hi everyone.

Not sure where to start. The bare bones. Very confusing childhood and I still struggle to acknowledge their behaviour for all the reasons thrown back at me that you can see in the OP. I then started acting out and getting groomed and into very inappropriate relationships from 12, self harm and the “adult” abusive relationship 17-21. I’ve had a lot of therapy and am still in therapy which has helped a lot but I still find life really hard. I have contact with parents.

I’m 34 now, lovely DH. I’ve had lots of ups and downs over the years but got to the place of TTC last year and very quickly my DD was born 9 months ago. I was very surprised by how quickly it happened and not sure I was prepared as I was expecting a longer road. The birth was very traumatic and very violating (I’m thinking about making a complaint). I was doing really well before she was born but the birth and not being able to breastfeed and a million other things just shattered my confidence and led to me going right back down the rabbit hole. It had brought up a lot and obviously the sleep deprivation has been killer (she’s slept through 7 nights ever!).

I’m in parent infant psychotherapy with her as it was offered and of course I want to do everything I can to give her a happier life, but I’m not finding it that helpful. I’m not sure the therapists approach is right for me. Does anyone else have experiences of it?

My anxiety about her having to go through the pain I did and repeating my parents parenting is overwhelming a lot of the time. I give myself no slack and feel like every ‘mistake’ I make (getting frustrated or upset with her) is unforgivable. When I feel myself act like my own mum I feel so angry and upset with myself and I’m so scared I’m going to repeat the same things with her. Even in getting upset I worry I’m being narcissistic or manipulative or making it about me.

I’m not sure what I’m asking for, maybe just reassurance that you can do things differently? I want her to have a happy life without what I’ve been through. I know I can’t protect her from everything in life but I’m scared I’ll never have the skills or capacity or ability to love her like a ‘normal’ mum could.

If there are any books people have read I’d really appreciate it, or just kind words at a dark time.x

Hi @powkin glad you found your way here. It sounds really bloody frustrating to be trying so hard and still feel you’re not getting to where you feel you should be.

You say you’re still in contact with your parents. How is that going for you? Are they part of your daily life?

Welcome to the thread, Powkin, and congratulations on having your lovely little daughter!

I'm not a mother (long story) but my much younger DSis is. She also had a traumatic first birth, wasn't able to breast feed although she tried and tried, and the sleep deprivation - plus having to deal with our mother's old-fashioned and in some cases frankly insane "advice" drove her to the brink. That, and my DSis's ever-constant worry that she'd might be a terrible parent because she had never experienced good parenting herself.

Hang on in there, Powkin. My DSis, despite her constant worrying and second-guessing, is a great Mum. You will be too. And why? Because of the very fact that you are worrying about this and putting your baby's needs and comfort and happiness first and foremost, and battling that nagging critical little voice in your head and being determined to do things right for your little girl. That means you are not your mother. It means you have empathy and insight, things your parents lacked. It means that you would climb mountains to make your little girl feel loved, warm, safe and secure. I'd say that's a great start. I'd say you are already winning in the parent stakes.

There will be others along soon, I'm quite sure, who are parents themselves and will give you more insights, including some thoughts about therapy, but I just wanted to send you my kindest thoughts and wishes

@powkin Hi and welcome.

I've had to stop reading a lot of the literature on NPD as it was convincing me more and more that I may be the same as my mother. I'm sure that I have some traits but I'm not the same.

The fact that you are questioning your parenting and concerned about your daughter means you are not the same as your mother.

I'm not a mum so can't offer any more advice but just want to let you know that this is a great place full of support. So please stay and chat.

Hi Powkin😊, I had children when I was young and stupid and in a terrible relationship, so you've got a big head start on me there...if you're in a good genuinely supportive relationship that is a huge plus point I would have thought?
I do remember being traumatized after the birth of my first child, and Im wondering if EMDR might be worth looking into to help process that, but then again I am predisposed towards it because I am having that type of treatment myself.
I don't know enough to comment much on the psychotherapy but it occurs to me that if you've been offered it you won't have the chance to choose a therapist that felt right for you?

Thank you so much for the kind and thoughtful replies.

@Ulterego - yes I cannot afford more private therapy (I am in individual privately) and so this is NHS. I think what I need is confidence and reassurance right now, which my personal therapist does help with. I think it makes me feel like a problem and focussing on the past and ascribing everything to it is not always helpful, or perhaps I’m not strong enough for it right now. It seems like wanting someone to say ‘it’s going to be ok’ isn’t OK! I know it might not be but to have that comfort. The mental health nurse was is so lovely though. There’s such a dilemma between wanting/needing support and feeling like you're ‘in the system’ and therefore failing. Social services aren’t involved or anything, there are no concerns over my parenting at the moment, except for my own low mood and negative thoughts impacting my parenting. Building up my self worth has been an almost impossible challenge over the last 10 years.

My partner is genuinely so supportive, to the point where I really feel I don’t deserve it because I don’t feel good enough as a mum when I don’t do things ‘right’.

My main thing that really knocks my confidence is that my DH works from home most of the time so I’ve often got support, and when I don’t I feel I really struggle to cope. I feel like I don’t have the resilience of other mums and what is normal for them to manage solo feels absolutely impossible for me (I also have a genetic issue that makes me tired and causes pain). This makes me already feel less than as a parent. Seeing mums managing baby swimming and cleaning and cooking and getting out and about without feeling super anxious (I do my absolute best taking her out but I’m always scared I’ll get really overwhelmed in public), so it seems to take so much out of me. Then I beat myself up for thinking I could ever do this, and that I was cruel to have her.

It has also meant my family want to see more of me because of her, not me, and managing this is difficult. I have repaired my relationship with my mum and am on ok terms with my dad (I’ve accepted his limitations and just try and have an ok relationship that feels manageable for me) but the dynamic is still hard for me. Same with DSis who can be controlling and possessive (always wants to take DD away from me to look at herself in the mirror with her or just make distance between DD and me so she’s alone with her... little things like that feel uncomfortable). It’s been hard trying to keep my boundaries with them all when in reality I need all the help I can get. They don’t live close which does help but at the same time it just being the 2 of us with DD for 9 months is exhausting.

I’m meant to be back at work 2 days a week tomorrow which long term I hope will help as I like my job and my colleagues a lot, but right now it all feels like so much.

I think most mums feel a bit like that some of the time, but your worry sounds all encompassing. Therapists can’t tell you that everything will be ok, but they are definitely there to support you to feel that you are a capable and reliable mother to your little girl. You want to love and care for her, you’re working every day to make her feel safe and happy. That sounds much more than ok to me!

I’m guessing you didn’t get much reassurance when you were growing up and now you feel responsible for a child you’re not sure where that comes from. You’re part of a partnership though, your DH is half of her world too.

Your family sound quite difficult to deal with. Do you have a good relationship with your PIL’s?

@Herocomplex I had a breakdown 5 years ago and tried my hardest to talk to my parents about how I felt then. My mum managed to say one thing that felt healing and that was enough. My dad threw it all back in my face. Things sort of died that day, but I keep things civil and he does try hard in practical ways (but often gets angry and bitter if I’m not grateful enough/say thank you quick enough). I feel sad for both of them in lots of ways so I’m not angry at them anymore most of the time. I feel like when they say they did their best it is partially true, insomuch as they weren’t capable of more. I wish they’d tried a lot harder to get me help and support but that reflected badly on them, so they swept it all under the carpet.

@Herocomplex it really helps knowing DH is half her world, he is really a lovely kind and gentle man. His mum I get on with pretty well but she’s not very practical and also far away so not always the most helpful, and she’s the polar opposite to my parents in that she was extremely hands off with my DH so his experience was the opposite to mine! Another reason we wanted to try family therapy. My FIL didn’t grow up with my DH and their relationship was strained for many years, it’s ok now but he’s only seen DD three times maybe, only for a few hours each time, and never when not convenient for him - he would never dream of coming over for the day and helping with laundry for example! Again FIL and his wife are far away. My DH says he’s said some weird stuff to him about parenting that hasn’t been helpful at all, so we sort of forget about him most of the time.

I understand that reaction @powkin. I had a crisis when I was in my early twenties and my parents reacted pretty much the same. I feel they thought I was weak and self indulgent. One visit to the GP and that was it, never really mentioned again, just swept it under the carpet. Luckily I had a good friend who helped me.

I felt so alone. I have three (adult) children of my own now and check in with them frequently about how they’re doing emotionally. I haven’t always got it right because I’m not a perfect mother (and what a curse that would be in truth) but I’ve done ok.

I strongly believe that you can do really well for yourself and your daughter. It’s hard, but you’ve already proved you can do hard things. 💐

Hi all been lurking on these threads for a while and been a bit to shy to post. I grew up in care and found my RD at 14 he subjected me to horrous sexually abuse and u had a DD to him at 15. He then commuted suicide days before he was sentenced.

It has really effected my life and I ended up giving my DD up for adoption she turned 16 on bonfire night and I'm scared shitless when she trys to find me

@ Loneranger14 might sound like a stupid question but what are you afraid of?

I can’t imagine your daughter not understanding why she was put up for adoption, I cannot even begin to imagine caring for a child under those circumstances. It sounds like an impossibly awful situation and you gave her the chance to have a life away from that and space for you to try and deal with what happened. x

@powkin I'm not sure really (the unknown) the questions she will have, does she even know many questions going through my mind we have letterbox contact every year and I've not missed any.
I also have a chest in my bedroom that has a birthday card and Xmas card and present for every year just so she knows she wasn't forgot about.

Hi.
I didn’t know this thread existed until today, but have been on MN for a few years now.

I think my mom may have been subject to emotional abuse when she was young. She also lost two babies when they were a few months old - one of whom was my twin brother.

I never really started to piece together how toxic my childhood was until I was pregnant with my now 2 year old, and have vowed not to repeat the same mistakes.

Her favourite thing to do was to slap me around the head and call me a stupid sod. For doing anything, really. She would sulk and sulk with me over trivial things - using emotional blackmail would make me feel like an outcast in my own home. She would never check I had eaten, and stopped cooking for me when I reached the age of 11. My Dad was loving towards me, but he worked full time and left all the childcare stuff to my mother. She never taught me simple stuff like washing my hands after going to the toilet, or to brush my teeth twice a day and have as no end of dental problems growing up (and still now)
Once, on a holiday abroad aged 10, I was left sunbathing in direct sunlight, with no cream on and asleep. I ended up with heatstroke and was very unwell that night - still I was left in the hotel room on my own while everyone else went out. I felt unwell for the rest of the holiday but I was accused of pretending to be anorexic to seek attention. Another holiday aged 6, I remember wandering off and nearly drowning in the big pool. I was rescued by a stranger. My parents didn’t know where I was.
I remember having my first real anxiety attacks when I was about 9. But never spoke to either of my parents about it as I couldn’t.

I know there is more, but I’ve started to notice a pattern with other people in my life. The girl who mercilessly bullied me in high school for three years blowing hot and cold. I always remember being terrified of her and feeling so relieved on a day when she was being friendly. Other days, I was ostracised from our peer group and spent many lonely days just waiting for her to talk to me again so I could join in.
The fort emotionally abusive boyfriend I had was the same. He used to gaslight me, make me feel stupid and tell me I couldn’t come out on a big night out that we had planned and I was looking forward to - just hours before: then he would listen to me beg and plead and he would agree last minute and coldly say ‘I was always going to say yes anyway’

I am so fucking desperate to feel accepted by people that I try to please people constantly. And I don’t trust ANYONE with my emotions. Not even DH. He isn’t talking to me at the moment, and again I have that feeling of being cast it in my own house. I can never trust that he isn’t just blowing hot and cold with me for fun. To control me in some way.

I really, really want to be stronger to be a good mom for my son. But that voice in my head keeps telling me that I’m not good enough. Why bother try to fix me when I’m not worth it anyway?

I become ever so slightly more convinced that I will take my own life one day. Not that I am suicidal now, but that it is my inevitable fate.

Thanks for reading this far.

One thing I forgot to mention, while I was close with my Dad when I was growing up... he now lives in a different country and we don’t talk anymore. He has never met his only grandson. The woman he married after he and my mom divorced was very jealous and controlling and long story short, she managed to get him cut off from his whole family.

@yellowlemon - crikey, The religion as well. What particularly seems to appeal to my mother is the facility to confess, have sins wiped clean and then go and sin again.

I am still in contact with my mother but have become increasingly more grey rock - to the point where she has started to notice. She will occasionally break off from endless talk of herself to say "I've done nothing but talk. What's going on in your life?" To which my stock response is "Nothing much" and change the subject.

I can't bear conflict and am a terrible people-pleaser (born of growing up appeasing mother, I suspect and I notice you have a similar mindset @ethelfleda ) so I find it easier just to stay LC and not rock the boat. I also don't want to put my father through the mill if I were to go NC, although he doesn't really deserve much consideration. He was a dreadful enabler by simply never being there. Always at work or busy. He must have known what she was like.

I am married but don't have children. My mother's mother was diabolical and yet my own mother did not seem to learn from this. So I could not trust myself not to propagate the behaviour patterns. My sister does not have children and is not married either. Mother is desperate to marry her off but has now given up on grandchildren. While we were both still of child-bearing age my mother nagged me constantly to produce. Not sis because she was unmarried. My mother even rang my mother in law and told her to put pressure on my husband to put pressure on me. She said to my mother in law she would disinherit me if I did not comply. Ugh. This from a woman who spent my entire childhood telling me how utterly ghastly it was to have children.

The penny about her probably being narc began to drop in my late 30s I think, but I didn't put a name to it until I was probably about 45. At that time I had some counselling because I was worried about how I might react when she dies. She is in rude health at the moment but I worry about feeling dreadful guilt that I have spent the last few years basically looking forward to the day. Or if not actively looking forward, at least not contemplating the issue with anything other than relief.

Loneranger
I'm so so sorry for what you went through
I dont know enough about adoption to know the likely hood that she would try to find you, is there anyone who understands the system that you can speak to for advice?

Glad you're here, @powkin

"If there are any books people have read I’d really appreciate it, or just kind words at a dark time.x"

Have you read Childhood Disrupted : How Your Biography Becomes Your Biology, and How You Can Heal by Donna Jackson Nakazawa?

It was one of the first actual books around the subject that I bought, andI found it really illuminating (uncomfortably so at times - very helpful). Chapter Eight is called Parenting Well When You Haven't Been Well Parented: Fourteen Strategies to Help You Help Your Children, though the whole book may help you, I hope?

I can recommend other books too, but I should say that I haven't had a child myself. I commend you for your willingness to do this work, this therapy and investigation. It's so painful and difficult but it will stand both you and your little one in such good stead. Well done powkin, you really can do this! You are doing this! :). Wishing you the very best.

@Spodge - yes I think my mother noticed the grey rock thing eventually. I'd do the same as you "not much" or "just work really". She had no idea about women working so I knew she wouldn't push.

Over the years it's gotten easier not to worry about what happens to her when she gets ill and eventually dies.

I think it's for the same reason I can't forgive her. It's not because I don’t want to or I'm still too hurt about it all (even though I kind of am).

It's because there’s nothing there to forgive. It would be like forgiving a lamppost that you walked into. Or a bird that pooped on your head.

So when she gets ill or knows she's going to die she may say she wants me by her side but I know that she won't really want me. She'll want her idea of me, the me to scapegoat or feed her ego, whatever's on her mind that day. So I don't feel guilty about it.

(Even though I've only just gone NC I made up my mind after my father died that I wasn't going to care for her in her old age so I've had longer to deal with that if anyone was wondering why I've thought about this longer).

Ethelfleda it must have been terrifying as a child to have parents who were so cruel dismissive and neglectful, this is bound to have an influence on you as an adult, it takes time and it's not an easy process but these knots can be undone.
You are good enough Ethelfleda, you can live, you can thrive

@powkin - if you could show all the gentle kindness and insight to yourself that you gave to Loneranger at 15.13. That was so thoughtful, what you said.

This is an amazing thread, I had no idea about this. I wish I had before.

Spodge and yellowlemon I can relate to your situations so well. I've been LC with my mother for some years now, with periods of NC. Contact is phone only, I don't visit as it takes about an hour for the abuse to start and then I'm stuck there like the captive audience she's after. She's only interested in seeing me if she can dictate terms that revolve entirely around trying to impress neighbours etc, she's not remotely interested in actually seeing me or knowing anything about my life and will do anything to get a reaction, the bigger the better. I shut down in front of her with ease, but it makes me deeply unsettled now and bring back horrible memories of growing up.

I also didn't really connect the narc thing with her until my 40s, there were plenty of other things to dress her behaviour up in such as her drinking and her own abusive mother and I think the narc term gets bandied about so easily its true meaning and impact gets lost somehow. It was my people pleasing and well hidden chronic lack of self esteem that slowly made me start to dig a bit deeper. I struggle to really address the whole thing properly but I carry a real fear of how I will react when she dies and also how I will have to deal with the reaction of others (including my older and less affected siblings) who don't understand or see me as a neglectful daughter. I'm lucky to have a couple of close friends from childhood with very similar situations who share those fears and we know we can say anything or recall any incident without judgement but with plenty of relevant support and humour. I keep toying with counselling and might make it a New Year's Resolution this year.

I'm going to come back and delve deeper into this thread.