"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Ethelfleda
I too was convinced that I should take my own life. I grew up thinking I was rubbish and tried it when I was sixteen, I didn't take quite enough pills and woke the next morning feeling like God Knows What. I had to get out of the house and sleep it off on the beach! I'm so glad I didn't die! It's never worth your life. Never.
I'm sending you my hearfelt sympathy as one who has been there, or thereabouts.

Still following.

I'm quite painfully raw at the moment, and that's rendering me unable to say all I'd like to,
but just want to say to all newcomers

Welcome, I'm so glad you're here.

I'm truly sorry for all you've been through.

Be kind to yourself, patient with yourself, you are precious, truly.

This is a safe place, of community and understanding, free from judgement.

Post whenever and however you want to.

I hope being here benefits each of you.

@Loneranger14 That sounds so lovely of you to do that for her, and it sounds like you've had some contact from her over the years, or is it one sided? It will be clear to her that you have thought of her often and hopefully that will be something. I hope she has a nice family. If and when she does decide to make contact, then you also have a choice about how and when and if it should happen - you need to be ready too? I know it would be hard for you to say no, but perhaps it's best to be honest? To share your own worries with her? Maybe it will be reassuring to know you are nervous about what it might mean for both of you too. It might be a lot about expectation management - thinking about how much contact you can handle. Are there support agencies or charities that could talk you through this? Have you ever spoken to PAC-UK? www.pac-uk.org/

If you want to have a relationship with her, and she does with you, then just take it slowly. You've got the rest of her life to figure it out. And there's family counselling and support available too. Have you had counselling yourself, or is there anyone you trust to talk to about it that knows the situation?

I'm sorry you went through something so awful, it breaks my heart.

My parents are around their 70's now and I don't really know how I'll handle it. They are control freaks and hate the idea of being cared for by anyone and regularly suggest they have a suicide pact - my dadif even suggested I help him die and what the law is if I did?!

They want to be closer to me now I have DD as they want to help more, but everything is SO conditional all the time. They'll help financially but only for x/y/z thing they've decided I need (like I don't have a tumbledryer and they decided I need one and offered to buy one, but if I needed £300 they wouldn't offer it). Now my mum can't come up to help at all before Christmas and felt bad and offered to pay for a bit of cleaning, but my dad wanted to know exactly how much a cleaner would cost and worked out x number of hours...... you can see what this is like. And then I have to be grateful enough. It's very hard for me to say no as we've been struggling financially, and I'm exhausted so of course I would love to have some cleaning. On the surface it all looks so nice to everyone else, but it's just that. Them having money just means they can throw it around when they choose, but only when they choose, and never ever if I asked for it.

Again it's hard for people to be sympathetic to someone who is being offered some support, and who has parents who have some money to help them, so it puts me in the position of looking really ungrateful. It's just a power dynamic they've used over and over again, whilst also being disappointed that I'm not more successful and haven't made more of my life (like sending me articles about how it's not too late to become a 'real doctor' when I'm studying for something else that they don't value).

@BodySaysNO - thank you so much for that - I will definitely give it a read. Would love any other suggestions too (not sure when I'll have time to read them, but you know...)

I am doing it, but it's like pulling teeth, or being dragged through a hedge. I hate not being in control and feel so completely out of control - every day is different and she is different and her needs are different and I get so stressed and anxious trying to figure it all out. It scares me that I cannot run away. Thinking of ending my life used to be quite comforting, like an escape route to end all escape routes - but now it feels awful because I can't do that to her without messing her up, but I also feel completely trapped because I'm scared if I'm here I'll mess her up more - and to walk away and leave her with my husband would be horrendous too. That safety value has gone, and finding ways to soothe myself is very difficult without it - perhaps I didn't realise how much I relied on it.

@Getoffmylilo Hi and welcome.

Thinking back I think I stumbled across NPD when I was trying to diagnose what was wrong with me (yeah thanks Google). I thought for ages I had Aspergers or something - difficulty with eye contact, unable to make deep friendships, useless in relationships, often happiest in my own company, couldn't bear being touched, bright yet sometimes very self-destructive and an underachiever, felt like an outsider and got really anxious in large groups of people. I still much prefer 1-2-1 company although I am loads better with all of the above.

It took me a long time to work out how damaged I had been by my childhood because I thought abuse was either physical or wanton neglect.

Also, I think the publicity about things like coercive control in [romantic] relationships started to make me realise that's what my mother had basically been doing to me.

Going LC massively helped but it wasn't enough.

Someone texted me a few minutes ago and my phone lit up (Sunday was usual phone call night). Even though I've blocked her calls I got a knot in my stomach for a few seconds until I realised it couldn't possibly be her.

And yes, I used to go and visit her and then she'd ignore me the whole time I was there. Someone (I think the very wise @Ulterego) explained that was to keep the balance of power in her favour.

Going NC has given me some power back and even though I know I'm playing a game I can't ever win, at least I'm currently playing it on my own terms.

Stay and chat here - it's massively helpful.

@ethelfleda I have often felt this way too, and have got very close a few times. I'm not sure I can help, but just to say you're not alone in feeling that way. I think what I try to do once I come out of the worst of it is to try and reconnect with things that give me some identity - like I put on some music that I like this morning - sounds really small but to me it is quite a bit thing. Trying to do tiny things that make me feel like me, that are important to me, that make me appreciate being alive in any small way - things I would miss if I wasn't here. But it's hard, and so easy to follow those thoughts and feelings to what feels like a very natural conclusion. When it gets really hard it is just one day at a time - do I want to be alive today? If the answer is yes then keep going, if the answer is no then perhaps try and hold on until the next day and ask yourself again. There's an amazing charity called Maytree Respite Centre that offers one-off respite stays of 5 days to people feeling suicidal, and a huge number of people that stay are people abused as children in one way or another, but having that break and that space to just talk can be a life changer - it's always worth having in the backpocket in case you need it. x

@powkin Your compassion and love comes through with every post. It is very hard when they use financial incentives to keep you close and hold that power over you especially when you really need the money.

@powkin sorry posted too soon.

Your post about self-care is so important. I never used to do anything nice for myself. I felt so guilty about doing anything that wasn't work or being busy in some way.

Keep doing those tiny things like listening to music. I know it's a real cliche but exercising really helps even if it's going for a walk or dancing round the house.

I found swimming enormously helpful - it's like an hour's mediation where I can completely shut my brain off, focus on my body and my breathing, and then have that massive high afterwards that you only seem to get from a swim.

I've started reading these threads recently and hoped I could join?
I've always had a difficult relationship with my mum but since having children (especially my daughter who's a few months old) I've been so much more aware of how I don't want to parent like her.

I was never physically abused or neglected so my experience is nothing compared to a lot of people here, but it would be nice to be able to talk openly about it as it's not something I can do with anyone in real life other than my husband.

I mostly feel some sort of deep resentment for how controlling my parents were (at 16 I had no freedom and had to tell them every minute plan of where I was going when I left the house and it needed to get approval from them, even at 20 when I was home from uni in the holidays they would text constantly to ask where I was and what time I'd be home). They were only concerned with grades and results, when I did well at school they would tell me how proud of me they were- I was never praised for being kind, brave, a good friend etc.

I almost felt like my mum was trying to embarrass me constantly. I remember the first time buying make up and I was nervous to tell her because she would find a way to belittle it and embarrass me. I didn't introduce them to a single boyfriend until my now husband, I was terrified of telling them as they made constant comments that made me feel embarrassed.

Somehow I cared so deeply what they thought, but at the same time resented them and also didn't care- hard to describe it really.

I find my mum hard work. She talks over people constantly- you could say something in a conversation and she'll ignore it and say something irrelevant because it's a point she needs to get across. I can see her desperate to shoehorn her story/opinion in even if the subject had changed and so will ignore somebody's contribution and just continue to talk. I find it really awkward around family friends when she does this as she seems to have no social awareness whatsoever, or respect for anyone else's opinion. She's also exceptionally rude to shop assistants, waiting staff etc. I'm embarrassed to be out with her and often end up apologising and being overly nice to them to try and make up for her behaviour.

On holiday last year, we took a family vote to decide between two day trips for that day. Three of us voted for one place, mum for another and my dad followed her vote (I'm fairly sure to appease her- he flits between doing this to keep her happy or ignoring her/telling her she's being ridiculous, to which she pouts and gets upset). On the journey there she hung behind sulking, once we arrived she spent the day complaining about how it was a waste of money/ horrible food/ awful activity. It was beyond miserable, awkward and embarrassing for all of us. Nobody dares to call her out on it as she would get extremely upset, cry and say we didn't love her etc.

Both parents are great grandparents to my children and love them dearly. I know they love me and my siblings deeply too, but I just struggle with my mum so much. I never want my children to feel in competition or at war with me, but to feel like we're on the same team and that they can tell me anything without judgement. I'm terrified of my mums behaviours subconsciously coming out in my parenting.

Venting feels good! I'm going to do a deep delve into the past few threads but I hope this is a place I can get some good advice from. It looks like it will be

Thanks for the warm welcome @yellowlemon, and that just made me laugh - I did so many on-line Aspergers tests!!!

Hi everyone, can I join you please?

I’m not really sure where to begin, but I feel like being here might be helpful.

I’ve been NC with my drug addict/alcoholic father for 5 years now. It’s improved my quality of life in so many ways but I still carry the emotional and physical scars of a really sad childhood.

My mother and I have a sometimes okay/often dysfunctional relationship. She and my dad separated when I was 5 or 6 and she somewhat ‘clocked off’, pursued her own interest (namely relationships) and left me with an adult obviously so unstable and unable to care for a child. She also missed a ton of cues that everything was going wrong, well into my late teens.

I was pretty badly neglected and my life was very unstable as a child. Both parents followed their own agenda and I got lost somewhere in between. I started self harming at 13, drinking at 15, taking drugs by 16 and by the time I was 17 I was in freefall.

I’ve worked very hard to move myself on from that place with years of therapy and effort on my part. After 2 disastrous relationships with people with huge substance abuse problems of their own, I met my now dh. I married him because I loved him, but also because I recognised that he was the opposite of both of my parents, especially my father.

Our relationship isn’t always the easiest but we’re faithful, committed and push through the hard stuff. We have a 3 year old dd and newborn ds...and I do worry so much about screwing them up. I’m so far from being a perfect parent - I’m highly critical of myself and in turn do the same to my dd without realising sometimes, I can be quick to anger, and not as patient as I ought to be. So I often find myself wracked with guilt and rising stress levels. I walk around with what feels like a weight on my chest. I’m angry about my childhood, scared of replicating it, terrified I might break these beautiful little people I’ve made. I feel so undeserving of them sometimes and of how patient my husband is with me. I can’t imagine what it must be like to live without these feelings.

On the other hand, I try to remind myself that my children are safe, fed, warm and loved by both parents. And whilst I can be shouty and stressed, I also recognise that, apologise and do a good job most of the time. It’s such a scary job.

I function pretty well, but I know I have a reservoir of shame and hurt locked up inside me and it’s nice to be amongst people who understand how hard these things can be.

Thanks for reading if you’ve got this far.

@marmitemayonnaise Hi and welcome. Your mother could be my mother. She did all of those things.

And do have a dive into the old threads. You'll find a lot of us who all apparently shared a mother.

@yellowlemon - I absolutely love swimming but it's so hard to do now I have DD - I love outdoor swimming and in summer we would take her to the lido and take turns having a proper swim but now it's so cold I don't want her being outside so long. Now I am going back to work I could swim after work, but that would mean not seeing her before bed, and I'd feel really guilty about that. The other option is lunchtime but it's a bit of a rush then. I do like the focus that only having a short time brings though (I tend to be lazy with too much time on my side). My DH and I probably need to get better at giving each other breaks rather than doing evything together, but she's been really hard work recently and I've not been coping well on my own so it's hard to do. Hopefully she'll settle down again soon (ill and 4 teeth coming at once...)... until the next thing. The relentlessness of parenting is something I hadn't expected, there always being a new challenge or difficulty - just when I feel like I've weathered one storm there's another one on the horizon.

One thing I've really struggled to lose is a sense of absolutely everything being a competition and absolutely nothing being good enough and the sense of 'what's the point' if you're not the best at something (like swimming - I'll enjoy it and then I'll start criticising myself for not being thinner/faster/stronger) - I was never taught that you can just do things because you enjoy them! I wasn't allowed to do anything that I didn't show any professional, money making aptitude for, and when I didn't live up to their financial investment I was a big disappointment. My DF would tell me in long ranting conversations how disappointed he was in my DSis and all the money and time they wasted on x/y/z because she didn't end up doing something professionally (and ended up self-sabotaging so she couldn't, consciously or unconsciously) so I know that he was doing the exact same thing to her about me.

I really want my DD to do things because she enjoys them and because they are fun and make her happy, and that you don't have to be good at everything.

I could have written this exact same post @LauraPalmersBodybag - just with a different back story - the teenager timeline is pretty much identical. Glad I'm not the only one that feels this way x

@powkin - you sound like such an amazing mum. You will find a way to sort these things out.

Re the competition thing - me too. Was never allowed to just do things for enjoyment. I remember I did some life drawing classes a few years ago and was so upset my drawings weren't perfect when everyone else was just happy with the wine and pizza. I'm loads better with that now.

And same about 'we wasted all that money on you'. Well yes you did waste it because you spent it on things you wanted me to do rather than things I wanted to do. Every time I showed a remote interest in anything it was shut down with all sorts of negativity. 'Why would you want to do that?' "Now you're just being silly "That won't get you anywhere".

The ironic thing is the thing I begged and begged to do when I was a child I'm now doing in my career!. It's just a shame I didn't start doing it when I was 10 instead of when I was 35. Their financial investment could really have paid off!! Idiots.

@yellowlemon I still find it so hard to just give things a go for the fun of it - I have such an acute sense of shame that I’m scared to embarrass myself. I love drawing and know I’m not ‘good’ at it and looked into plenty of classes but have never been. I’m looking forward to doing lots of those things with DD but I also don’t want to feel like I’m using her childhood to fix mine, that’s not fair on her. I took her to a story time thing recently and it was so lovely to go and hear these children’s books that were never read to me! My DH has such fond memories of story time with his mum it makes him really sad.

I’ve asked my mum about her mum only recently (she’s from another country and died when I was a teenager so didn’t see her that often) and my mum would be so sad leaving I always assumed they were close, but it seemed her mum was very hard on her and very unemotional. She loved her dad but he died when I was small, and she was oversees from an early age. She didn’t say anything nice about her mum. It was a tough upbringing anyway but I hadn’t realised the coldness. It helped make a bit more sense of her. I feel sad for her, but then I remember some of the fucked up awful things my mum did and my heart hardens again. It’s so confusing, how I feel about my parents as people versus how I feel about them as my parents. That confusion ties me in knots constantly. I had to live with them for 6 months a few years ago and really seeing my parents relationship up close as a fully grown adult really made me realise how messed up they are as a couple and it made me realise that I’d had no chance of getting out of there as a functioning adult.

@powkin - the thing you need to remember is no matter how hard your mum's childhood she chose not to do something about it but take it out on you. She could have chosen to make your life better than hers.

My mother didn't love my father. She's incapable of love. My father came from a fairly well to do family and was admired (superficially) for reasons I can't go into because of outing. So as his wife she got a bit of that.

After he died his family basically 'ghosted' her and she didn't know why.
They'd tolerated her while he was alive but didn't need to keep up the pretence any longer.

My mother has nobody in her life now apart from my sister. Her siblings barely speak to her either.

It takes an awful lot of hard work to end up that alone.

Hello to all new faces - spodge, chocolate, powkin, loneranger and ethel.

I have the same fears that I will mess up parenting my children too powkin. But the fact that you are concerned about this means that you are a great mum. I’m sorry to hear that you had such a traumatic birth. Do you know that it’s possible to have a birth debrief where a senior midwife goes through your notes and talks over the birth with you? Regardless of whether you decide to go ahead with a complaint it may help you process what happened better? Regarding books, I would recommend one by Phillipa Perry - The Book You Wish Your Patents Had Read ( And Your Children Will Be Glad You Did). I’m half way through it at the moment. She has also done several podcasts promoting it recently if you’re short of reading time with a small baby but want to pick up the main principles. She talks about something called “Rupture and Repair” - basically there are times when we will all fail as parents, but it’s not so much the mistakes themselves that matter as to how you go about repairing them.

I can’t even begin to imagine what you must have been through loneranger, but you are stronger than you will ever know.

Hello too to lilo, marmite and laura - too many names to remember at once!

I second what Chloe said about Philippa Perry I really like her too😇
as well as books there are articles podcasts and YouTube videos (and she has such amazing hair 😁)
At the risk of introducing a dark note I would like to refer to the Philip Larkin poem
they f* you up your mum and dad
they might not mean to but they do....
Etc
And on a more hopeful note the Kal-El gilbraith poem
your children are not your children they are the sons and daughters of life's longing to be free
they come through you but they are not from you
It is really hard to be a parent but the fact that we are worrying about getting it right and acutely aware of our faults, well that is surely a big indication that we're on the right track?

Her ‘How to stay sane’ and ‘Couch Fiction’ books are also worth a read. Couch Fiction is useful if you’re curious about how therapy works.

Timely book recommendation, Chloechloe! A little while ago, my DSis (who struggles with self-doubt every day about whether she is a good mum) told me to read Phillipa Percy's book because it really helped her. I thought at the time no, I'm not a mother so it's not likely to be relevant to me, but perhaps I should now.

Can I just say how lovely it is to see so many kind and insightful posts over the weekend from those who are suffering themselves but still took the time to offer a comforting word to our newest joiners? That's one of the hidden treasures of this thread. We take but we give too. I've learned so much on here.

I think this thread is for me....