"But we took you to Stately Homes" November 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
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December 2013
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May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
October-November 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

No, Slipper, it's not easy, because to do that, you first have to trust. That's the really hard bit for all of us.

If you have someone in RL you can talk to - really really talk to - that's best but till then, this is the safest place I know.

How are things with your DH normally? It can be so hard to tell whether someone is doing right by you if you've had upbringings like ours. It is hard not to be suspicious of everyone. But sometimes we are right to be suspicious as well. Do you know what I mean?

Thank you toomuchtooold

I do know what you mean. And I guess this is part of the problem, I don’t always trust my instincts as I doubt myself so much. I’m always trying to protect myself from the next person who wants to make me feel bad about myself and I don’t really know if I should do it, or if I am overreacting! All I know is I do not trust ANYONE with my emotions - apart from maybe one childhood friend.

What a lovely bunch of people you are

slippermaiden you sound like you had a smilies experience to me as well.
It’s hard because it may seem to some that in the surface you had a good upbringing. But you were left in isolation and ignored. You weren’t listened to and that in turn can make you feel as though you aren’t worth listening to.
But, you ARE worth it. Your needs are important. You need to be a best mate to yourself now. Put your relationship with yourself to the top of the priority list as once that is fixed, you can truly be there for others.
I sometimes imagine myself going back in time to ‘visit’ myself as a child/teen or whatever but as a grown woman. If that makes sense? So, I’ll go back and imagine putting my arm around the younger me and telling myself that it will be ok, and that I am worth it, and that I shouldn’t be treated this way. I find it emotional but quite therapeutic.

This is for everyone

I just wanted to share with you some interesting insights I’ve found from listening to health podcasts. One called live better, feel more by Dr Chatterjee.

Anyway, he mentions a lot about how childhood trauma can affect us as adults. But the important thing here is his definition of trauma.
He says trauma can be defined as either, something, or many bad things happening to you OR (and here is the important point) not enough good things happened to you

This is especially for those of us who think that we ‘didn’t have it as bad as soon people’

What it means for me, is that every single one of us deserved a good childhood with supportive caregiver(s) And every single one of us has the right to feel broken in some way if we didn’t get that.

Human beings, especially children and infants, need love and support like they need food and shelter. It’s imperative to our development.

That's really interesting.

I've just been thinking today how my mother gave my abusive husband a hug after he was released from overnight jail for hitting me. I was still numb from the shock of it, but fuck me. She hugged him and told him she loved him. That's quite a betrayal, no matter how many gifts she's bought me since.

@ethelfleda That's really interesting - thank you.

I think this is the problem I had for a long time. My parents always said 'we did our best'. So for years I used to feel guilty about their best not being good enough for me. I felt very selfish and ungrateful

But the bar they set for their best was really fucking low. Surely giving your children the occasional cuddle, telling them you love them, and making sure that you're not doing things that you know will mean they are constantly humiliated and ostracised would be the bare minimum?

@SingingLily Gosh that sounds exhausting having all that responsibility in work. It is great that you recognised that it was becoming too much and you put your needs first and left. I love that you threw away all of your suits, it seems so symbolic of just letting go of your "superpower" that has just been draining you and being a huge source of anxiety. Thank you for all of your advice, I already feel like I can feel my thoughts shift and I feel like I have space to breathe and think about myself rather than others for the first time in a while.

@Spodge My DM did the exact thing with school assignments about telling us about our weekends or summer holidays. There was nothing to hide she is just so conscious of what other people think and it is exhausting. She is even like that with our extended family, including her parents. For example, if anyone one of us children does anything "wrong" (like drop out of college or want to take a gap year before university, etc) she panics and has to find a way to explain it to them in a way that is "socially acceptable". It has meant that my siblings and I are not close to any of her side of the family and I dread seeing them as feel like I have to put on a performance so I always leave feeling completely drained and exhausted. In my friendships though I am a guarded person and used to be very secretive with new friends but I have improved a lot. I think it is when I saw my DM through an adult perspective and realised her being private has hindered not helped her. However I still definitely know more about my friends than they know about me.

@ethelfleda I love that idea of going back to your childhood memories and retroactively soothing yourself. I feel like that would be so powerful and would almost enable memories to be rewritten in a more positive and soothing way. Plus it also enables you to view the memories through little you's perspective which helps to realise that your feelings are valid whereas when you use your adult perspective you can kind of explain away the feelings as "oh it was no big deal" when for you when you were little it WAS a big deal.

Ethelfleda I read your message about going back and giving myself a hug. I had a little cry about small me, I really wish I could go back to her.

And also about not enough good things happening, that really is what it's about.

If you’ve spent your childhood learning to minimise your feelings and protect yourself from blows (real and emotional) then the idea of being vulnerable with other people is alien.

You can’t fix this by being an emotional sponge for other people.

I think you can try to accept what has happened to you, acknowledge that it was wrong. (Personally I don’t think forgiveness is possible for me).

The main thing for me is to find out as much as possible about myself, make decisions about what I find acceptable, and regulate my feelings.

In therapy terms I am looking to live an authentic life.

MoreNiceCereal That's totally shit.

I’m astounded by that story cereal, what a betrayal at a time when you were so vulnerable.

I listened to that podcast too ethel. I’m a big fan of the Dr Chatterjee podcasts and have binge listened to many of them whilst on mat leave.

@cereal that is really spiteful of your mum to do that! As you say you are just in pure shock. My mum decided to ask if I was making the abuse up from my ex. How lovely of her!

Me and Dsis have been talking tonight and stumbled upon the subject of holidays. I told her how my mum had stolen my holiday I wanted to go out and my parents are now going to that place after she told me it was way too expensive for me. My Dsis then told me she had told mum that her dream place was a place in South America. A few weeks after she told her our mum boomed that place. When on holiday our mum likes to bombard us with pics of their room, food, cocktails, the beach. I've learnt to ignore them now. She just wants us to be all "oooo it's lovely" we did have a little laugh together thinking how ridiculous she is.

Hi. I am a longtime lurker here on MN looking for a bit of support. I have cut off the final member of my family today after a very long and drawn out NC process with the rest of them and I could do with some support. The background is that my Sis and I were abused as kids by another brother and essentially my family has not faced up to it. I strongly suspect my father has engaged in abusive behaviour as a teen too and that has compromised everything and everyone. I am pretty gutted but also a bit relieved as I was constantly suffering physical symptoms of PTSD trying to deal with them all and the fallout from the abuse.

Hello Myduck😊
these kinds of things are extremely damaging (unfortunately I have personal experience of similar) not being believed, having it dismissed and trivialized just further compounds the damage and the trauma.
How are you feeling tonight how is your sister?

@MoreNiceCereal

She might as well have struck you herself. Appalling.

Thank you all for the validation. It really was horrible, right? In my own home. Under the guise of being loving and inclusive or something. I just can't wrap my head around it. I couldn't hug a man who hurt one of my DC. (Which is why I kicked him out)

So that's what she thinks of me I guess. Her validation is more important than my safety/well-being.

I’m afraid her main thoughts are about herself. The drama of it all would be irresistible. Narcs only play at empathy.

No one with an ounce of feeling or compassion would have done that. I think that’s part of the problem, their behaviour is so wrong you feel frozen by it while it’s happening.

Thanks Ultero I haven’t spoken to my Sis in a year. Her way of handling this has involved a lot of denial which been very damaging for me so I just can’t deal with her.

MoreNiceCereal

I have sadly heard of this same scenario happening to other women too.

Your ex and your mother are one and the same in that they are both abusive. She saw in him a kindred spirit, two rotten peas in the same pod.

Have reported "Esthers" spam posts so hopefully MN will remove these asap.

It's really difficult to accept that truth, even though I know it.

Morning! I've been hovering in the background, reading and taking it all in, and feeling brave enough to join in this morning. This thread(s) have been such a help in the last few months as I try to process my relationship with my mother, so thank you all. Books are great but nothing beats hearing real life stories and recognising yourself in them, and has been immeasurably supportive. I've had so many 'Bingo!' moments...