But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
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March 2011
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May-August 2019
August-October 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I think his open her up to God comment is very disturbing, particularly as he is not religious... in his mind HE is God

Any confrontation is likely to turn heated and most likely violent
This is very bad, you cannot allow this reprehensible individual to have any influence in your life, he is just a thug, a nasty stupid bully.
Your father has no legitimate claim to any authority over you, you are an adult you make your own choices, you would not tolerate this behaviour from a friend, do not put up with it.

He's overjoyed at the prospect of being a grandfather because he's rubbing his hands at the idea of of virgin territory that he can conquer, he loves the idea of himself as the powerful big man at the head of a family dominating the lineage that he owns and controls.

By the way @FrothyB, it’s a space for everyone, you are so welcome.

Hope the birth is going well, so exciting and special for you and your partner!

Time for some big changes I think, you know it. Some parents are so damaging that they can’t be permitted to be in our lives. Your dad is a controlling bully who sees you as his property. He’s emotionally abused you so that you can’t recognise your own needs, you think his are more important.

You know you don’t have to do this anymore, there are ways out of this.

Concentrate on your wife, your new baby and yourself. When your Dad tries to make his presence felt you can say ‘not now dad, it’s my turn’, try to recognise when he’s dominating and push back ‘ not now dad’. Focus on your baby.

Your headspace is full now but you need to get reading up - the ‘out of the fog’ website.

Keep posting!

Gosh, I missed the violent bit! Never, never never acceptable. Don’t live in fear. It’s dreadful to feel afraid. There’s no excuse for a family member to use violence, it’s a criminal offence even if it is your ‘dad’.

I hope you feel understood here, you’ve been through hell.

It's as if he doesn't want me to do better than him in case it makes him look bad
Mylife, this is exactly what's going on, he doesn't like seeing you do well because it makes him feel inferior, he's not on your side he's trying to do you down you should protect yourself from him, know that he is not an ally, he works against you.

Frothy

You remain treated badly by your so called father and similar harm will be done to your child.

It is really not possible to have any sort of a relationship with someone as disordered of thinking as your dad is.

Adult children of narcissists often fall into the trap that somehow the parents will behave better when they become grandparents. It does not happen.

Your daughter deserves to have emotionally healthy grandparent figures so not this man in her life in any way shape or form.
Narcissists make for being deplorably bad as grandparent figures.
Your child is your most precious resource; I urge you now to keep her at all costs away from your father. He will do not too dissimilar harm as he has done and continues to do to you and in turn his family unit.

I would also suggest you do a lot more reading about ASD also because of your own poor understanding of it. ASD is a lifelone triad of impairments affecting social communication. It does NOT equal abusive behaviour nor does it account for his behaviours and why your father is the ways he is. He is very much a product of his own upbringing and I would think looking more at his own family background would be far more useful. I would put a crisp £5 note on it that your father is not on the ASD spectrum.

Your father is a narcissistic bully and one who enjoys the power and control he has over you and in turn your own family unit. Your DD is not even born yet but already your dad is trying further to control you all by making pronouncements about christenings and such like.

Do indeed also read the "out of the FOG" website

You will be far better off not having him in your lives at all.

He said he wants "play by play updates of how labour is going" and he and my stepmother are so excited. I said he'll know when labour starts and when she is born, the same as everyone else

First of all, FrothyB, you and your DP are about to become parents. Congratulations! This is a very exciting time for the two of you, a very precious time, and I hope it all goes well. (By the way, there are other men who post on this thread too so don't worry about being a trailblazer )

You don't have to give your father and SM a stream of updates, you know. You really don't. It's for you and your DP to decide when to share the news of your DD's arrival, and how, and to whom. You do it when it suits the two of you, not according to your father's timetable and demands.

I realise, and I really do understand, how hard it is to put boundaries in place with your parents when you've spent a lifetime trying to manage their moods. However, this birth changes everything. Your only responsibility is to your DP and your little girl and you might now find the inner strength you need to put those boundaries in place. It's somehow easier, I find, when you hold the line in order to protect a little person who depends on you than it is to fight on your own behalf.

I'm glad you and your DP are already agreed that you don't want your daughter to be exposed to your father's worst side - it's essential that you present a united front on anything that concerns your new little girl right from the very start. And that applies to whether or not your little girl is christened. That's for you and DP to agree and decide between you. Your father's views are irrelevant.

Start as you mean to go on, FrothyB. My very best to you and your DP.

Frothy

If you at all let your dad into your child's life in any way shape or form, you will be kicking yourself for the rest of your days that you allowed that to happen. DO NOT let him into her life.

The only acceptable level of abuse in a relationship is none. Your dad crossed that line a long time ago.

The best thing about all of this advice is that what it amounts to is -do nothing. Don’t engage, don’t respond, don’t give headspace to him, don’t react, don’t follow his instructions, don’t phone him, don’t answer messages, don’t let him in to your life. It’s the opposite of all the painful frantic traumatic work that you’ve been doing.

Hero I agree, it's easy to overlook the power of stonewalling*
•as you say it involves doing nothing so you get to conserve your energy.
•it takes all the power away from the other person, you give them no information about yourself you give them nothing to work with and they are left painfully twisting in the wind or scrambling around trying to understand the meaning of the stonewall.
•it sounds a very powerful message, 'I am impervious to you, you have no power over me, nothing that you do will get through my force field'

(*actually I'm not sure if stonewalling is the best term to use because it's often seen as a technique used by abusers, does anyone have any thoughts?)

Extreme grey rocking?
I hadn’t thought about that being abusive @Ulterego, sorry. I guess if it’s being used as a punishment then it’s abuse? But as the abused you aren’t intending to be manipulative, it’s self-protection to close down the relationship?

@mylifenow27 you've reminded me of when my ex husband was introduced to my family! We came away and he asked '...why dont your family like you?'. We chuckled; to me at the time it was just what i was used to! Now its helping me stick to my guns!

@myfavouriterain wow i identify so much with what you wrote! Mine claims everything she did was for us but as i get older all i see was basic day to day care like feeding etc, and being dropped like a hot rock for new men. I was a good kid, i always tried my hardest in the latest blended family. I was quite literally abandoned at 17 - she moved in with her bf, now my stepdad, and left me in the house alone. I felt when i moved to uni that i'd lived several lifetimes already due to break ups and housemoves just as you say. I then also got involved with a much older man. (Luckily he wasnt a baddie!) And now yes, every request comes with conditions about her very, full strict routine that cannot be moved, or 'i'll have to ask stepdad' and i just think 'i know him, he wont give a shit, why would he? '

I see other mums and they are far more generous with their time a resources for their kids, yet i have this constant narrative of 'i do SOOOO much for you all!' From mine even tho she doesnt.

Omg more memories - has anyone had this?

Mum made a huge deal about christmas with her grandchild, my DD. We moved heaven and earth to accomodate this and finally the big day came. When we got to my mums tho, she hadnt even really prepared. Some decorations and the meal, but no trimmings, no chocolate or mince pies, which she triumphantly announced without justification "well i havent bought any chocolate or anything!"

She actually PULLED SOUR FACES at the food we had taken to contribute. Does anyone watch Fleabag? You know at the wedding when fleabag gives the stepmum a present and she says 'awww, so nice, i'll open it over a bin.' It was like that!

No reason for this - she's comfortably off so not struggling. It was like she wanted to make it SEEM like we'd forced it on her, rather than her almost demanding we went.

We were so weirded out and confused. It went down as 'the puritan christmas' between me and my husband lol

pukeworthy oh yes, so familiar. We’d travel to see them, be given a basic meal from the freezer (battered fish, oven chips) and assorted leftovers and then she’d describe in detail the amazing meal she’d cooked for some new friends the previous weekend. Then offer me the recipe. Bizarrely she always despised ‘food from packets’ when we were growing up. And it’s not a convenience or affordability thing, she not elderly, she’s a capable woman with resources.

It was the same with family events, they’d talk a good game but when it came to it - nothing. We’ve only had one family celebration that they organised, it seemed to be ok at the time, but afterwards they said what a rip off the pub they’d chosen was.

No joy at all.

I was left open mouthed when mum told me over a glass of wine that I didn't have it that hard, and her friends think she does too much for me. I'd gone back to my parents home following a split with XH and moved into my new place 3 months beforehand. She looked after DD once a week. I was a single mum working full time with a monster commute. I was reeling from the divorce, and this felt like such a slap in the face. The cost of her saying 'well done, you're getting yourself on your feet' was too high.

Just after the split, I went to a friend's holiday home in a seaside village. There were high cliffs and I was contemplating suicide that night, three nights into my stay. Mum and dad arrived with DD (I didn't ask for the visit) and left DD there in the holiday home with me. I wasn't fit to look after her and I hadn't asked for her but somehow we coped. I was just so sad and uncommunicative with my folks.

A few weeks later mum said that she didn't know what to expect she'd come back to. 'Matricide, probably'. The fact she could see I was at my lowest ebb and left me, with DD, thinking DD could be in danger... leaving me in such a bad way... I'm still staggered by it now. I couldn't and wouldn't have hurt DD even if I'd died. To be accused of possibly doing that is just so hurtful.

I don't know if I'm making sense sorry.

She's been in touch today to ask if her going to counselling would help me. The conceit.

I'm still staggered by it now
I can remember similar things, parents completely blase about things which were extremely painful and damaging for me.
My only regrets are that I didnt read the riot act there and then, they were a pair of dicks, I wish I'd given them hell

That’s appalling @jamdhanihash. I can’t imagine how you managed. Did they want your DD to see you like that? They have no compassion. I’m so sorry.

Just be careful that this back and forth about counselling doesn’t run on, it already sounds like it’s getting to be a stick to beat you with.

I’m glad you’re in a better place.

@FrothyB Congratulations! Just to back up what others have said, bad parents make bad grandparents. The over-the-top interest will wain; in my experience becoming a grandparent was like a personal achievement, but once my DDs became their only little people, they were as disappointing to him as I was so the interest turned into (subtle) criticism - of how I was bringing them up, or just how they were behaving. I have to admit that I was gutted when I realised he wasn't going to be the amazing (or even just alright) grandfather I'd hoped he'd be; somehow I thought he'd redeem himself and it would make up for him being a terrible father (how stupid of me). Your daughter will not suffer the loss of grandparents who behaves like that, and I wish I had gone NC a lot sooner rather than waiting until it came to a head and he did directly verbally attack one of my DDs. On the other hand, children are a lot less bothered by how their grandparents behave than how their parents behave, so I think the high anxiety I felt every time he spoke to them prior to that was largely in my head and like I was experiencing it myself again, but not reflective of any impact it actually had on them. DD2 was upset by the final incident but we explained that it was granddad who had behaved badly, not her, and she accepted that because she trusts her parents. I was devastated by it, and it was the final straw, but she was upset for half an hour then forgot about it. I wouldn't tell anyone to go NC as that's a very personal decision, but I honestly don't think my DDs have gained anything from having him in their lives. I wish they could have had a loving grandfather and I am so sad that they haven't, but keeping him in their lives didn't give them that either. Do not make any decision to spare the feelings of your father, do it for your new family, they are now your top priority and will be around a lot longer than him.

@FrothyB PS Does your DP have parents that will be around? My DH's father died far too young when DD1 was just a few weeks old so it added to my belief that I needed to keep my dad in their lives as their only granddad. His dad was completely lovely. Life's not fair, is it?

My third session of counselling today left feeling emotionally exposed and I am not entertaining the possibility that I’ve adopted some toxic behaviours which is making me really sad. Namely I feel like I’m too invested in blaming and pointing fingers than actuallt taking responsibility for my feelings and solving the problem. I don’t know what I’m hoping to achieve in doing so. I’m kicking myself in the back.

I have terrible communication skills. Am a terrible listener when I’m feeling emotional and unheard. I project my own expectations of myself unto others. I dwell too much on the past and seen stuck there.

I have a lot of fixing up to do. I feel really sad for my realisations. I felt the counselor was trying to gently push me towards admitting that. Not sure if I’m interpreting things dramatically. I just feel sure that her impression of me was that I’m some damaged individual.

Weirdly I’m so desperate for a solution that even this possibility is hope for me.

But I’m sad to know that I’m not as kind as I thought I was. Possibly.

I am now *

@MrsNotNice sounds a really painful session. Whatever behaviours you’ve adopted in response to abuse are to protect your ‘self’. They’re not likely to be intrinsic or deliberate.

Sounds like you’re doing a lot of internalising of your anger. When you say she sees you as damaged do you feel she’s judging you negatively for that? Would you feel able to say that to her?