But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
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Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Jam 💐

@MrsNotNice Be kind to yourself. Noone is perfect, and recognising your faults like this and saying that you're willing to do what's needed to become a better person makes you a better person already. It would be a miracle if we hadn't all adopted some toxic behaviours from our parents. Be proud of yourself. A lot of what you say rings true to me too... being a terrible communicator, dwelling on the past, feeling stuck there... but being aware of that is such an enormous step forward. And you are hopeful... so much better than feeling hopeless. Damaged is not irreparable.

FreshStart is right, MrsNotNice.

It would be a miracle if we hadn't all adopted some toxic behaviours from our parents.

Or didn't exhibit ingrained behaviours that we had to adopt in order to survive.

They creep into every area of our lives whether we like it or not. You know what I mean - never being entirely sure that we get the balance right with other people; being "too much" or too aloof; being over-helpful or appearing insensitive; craving approval one minute and then suddenly drawing away in case we get hurt again. Not knowing what appropriate boundaries are or should be, not trusting our own instincts. Not knowing sometimes what we actually feel or indeed whether we feel anything at all. Trying to understand and recognise what "normal" looks like.

That's where this thread helps. We can talk about our self doubt and our constant second-guessing and everyone understands.

The point is, MrsNotNice, you are willing to reflect and learn and, where necessary, change. That alone puts you in an entirely different league to your parents. A normal one

Thanks singing, ulter and hero.

The counselling thing I've hopefully knocked on the head. She asked again how 'we' can fix this. I told her this isn't a mess of my making, I won't be fixing it and I'm fed up being asked how it can be fixed when I'm the one who's been wronged.

It's been death by a thousand cuts, it really has been, and now I'm the one who will look like the nasty fucker.

That was really well put singing. Describes my adulthood.

I have HUGE amounts of guilt about my failings as a parent, I have been dysfunctional as a result of my upbringing, this manifested largely in making bad choices in relationships and mental/physical health issues which left me very compromised.
I'm not usre what to say to you MrsNotNice, I know that I am something of a fu(kup but I would be miffed if my therapist described me as having toxic behaviours (if indeed that's what yours said)
I have no problem admitting I'm very bent out of shape, but I dont think that makes me toxic

She asked again how 'we' can fix this
I remember so well from my female parent 'what have we done to each other'
we??
so glad I'm rid

mrsnot of course you're bent out of shape. You've been abused badly by those who were supposed to take care of you. So what if all or any of this is an accurate reflection on how you're presenting right now? You're in the middle of healing. You will become more like the person you were supposed to be as you recover.

ulter Sorry you had such shit to deal with. I told female parent (like the nomenclature) today that as the daughter of at least one narc she should examine the impact that her upbringing had on her, and that I suspect she is a narc too.

I heard that you shouldn't tell a narc that they're a narc, but fuck it.

I’ve entertained that possibility @jamdhanihash, telling my DF that I think my DM has a personality disorder, but then I think why the hell should I do that? Nothing can be done. I think he knows anyway, he told me once he’d contacted a psychiatrist. (Did he, or was it to get my sympathy, who knows?)
I can’t help them, they don’t have a clue what to do. We’re at an impasse.

Been a while since I last posted here but I can really relate to what you've said MrsNotNice. And you've had some excellent responses.

If counselling is going to work, you need to feel like you can trust and open up to the person without judgement. Maybe it's worth trying a different counsellor?

I had a session last week that was kind of similar to what you've described, and my counsellor really emphasised that it was ok to feel whatever I feel and don't bat it away or minimise it. He's always talking about how I beat myself with a stick for feeling certain things, and I need to stop doing that and accept how I feel at that time. I also tend to wallow and get stuck, and I feel a huge amount of resentment towards my parents. My counsellor really seems to understand dysfunctional families and the impact of abusive or neglectful parents though. I've been to others in the past who really didn't.

pokes head round the door

Hi all, I've not posted here before but I think this is where I need to be. I'm not sure of the ettiquette in jumping into long running threads like this and I feel terrible not reading everyone's back stories etc but I guess I just go ahead and say a bit about why I'm here..

So I have a terrible relationship with my mother which is the main issue these days.

Brief history is sexual abuse from tiny toddler to primary school, her brother. Didn't tell anyone until age 18 ish. She claimed not to know.
Found out my dad was infact my step dad from other kids playing out in the street at age 10 during a time that I was being horrendously bullied at school with no support.

Finally met real father age 14, contact for a few years on and off but no real interest, haven't seen or heard from him for over 10 years now. I am the result of teenage pregnancy and have been made aware of the tragedy of it and how she wasnt even going out with him and they were drinking and she didn't even like him. He makes her cringe. I remind her of him.

Have golden child sister who has completely different experience and v close relationship with parents. They are the perfect Instagram family.

Have been single parent twice over with no support, first time around, v abusive relationship (mental rather than physical) had to get social housing as homeless and going back wasn't an option. Mum sided with abusive ex and continues to speak to him and his now wife despite repeated pleas not to as they've made my life hell for 14 years. She can't see the problem as they as 'they only want to help her see eldest ds14' even though I have two other ds's she's not interested in and I don't limit contact she's just 'busy' and won't come to me as she's looking after dsis's daughter.

Relationship with mum deteriorated gradually over the years with constant disapproval, passive aggression over any successes, always making sure I knew my place.

Loads more but this has gone on much longer than I intended.

Now have 3rd DS and we're all settled with lovely DP, learning to cope with complex PTSD symptoms and waiting on a long list for first lot of therapy.

So that's me. I hope to read back and get to know some of your stories too.

Hi @Shitonthebloodything - it’s fine to just jump in, whatever works for you. It’s good to just put it all out there if you can, even if I think it’s hard to read back.

What strikes me about what you’ve written is that it’s very factual, how do you feel reading it back? You sound so alone. Your parents have really let you down, your mother treats you as though you have no feelings at all. You deserved so much better. 💐

Good morning, Shiton, you are definitely in the right place. I'm glad you found us.

That's such a lot to take on board. I cannot even begin to imagine how lonely and scared you must have felt throughout your childhood and onwards. Your mother failed you then and she is failing you now. Being the perfect Instagram mum with your sister doesn't absolve her abusive behaviour. It just shows her up for what she really is.

Do you have much contact with her? I hope that you don't have to wait so long for your therapy. Could you press them to let you know if there are any cancellations?

Welcome shilton! I too accidentally found out my 'dad' wasnt my dad at age 10 shakes hands.

Can i ask a question? Do you feel resentful you werent given a choice about it? My mum met my sisters dad very quickly after things went bad with mine. I was a trusting 2yr old and as i now know, my mum is very quick to jam people together to 'create harmony' (in her mind). Im angry i didnt get a choice. I was encouraged to call him daddy and the rest of the family was in on the subterfuge. I got very triggered when mum started ramming my NEW stepdad down my throat as GRANDPA to my DD! That was a line in the sand moment. She 'compromised' by inventing the title 'grumps' -_-

Thank you so much for the warm welcome. I've really started to address things for the first time this year, getting help, some anxiety medication (was shocked at those dose I needed considering I've always thought I was fine) and the waiting list I'm on is for specialised SA counselling that's free so I want to hang on for it. Even my assessments for referral were the most validating experiences I've had my life. I've had conversations this year with professionals that have made me understand myself for the first time ever.

I try to keep my contact to a minimum just seeing her every few months when she wants to see ds14'. This thread came off the back of a visit to her two days ago which I'm actually still raging about. She was vile and I needed an outlet.

I am very lucky to have my aunt (mum's sis) who i am very close to, we don't see each other often but she feels the same about my mum as I do and is a great support when something happens and I need a rant. I'm seeing her today which will really help.

Pukeworthy, I'm not to sure about the resentment. It's honestly never really occurred to me that I should have a choice so it's never occurred to me to mind if that makes sense. My place has always been to just accept whatever anyone else wants or needs without question.

Posted too soon.
My stepdad
As is a decent bloke, they got together when I was a baby and he's always been around. He's quiet though. Does as his told, supports my mum in everything. The only time we've been close is about 6 years ago when she 'left' him (just moved into the spare room and ignored him for 6 months). He called me every day and I supported him, he came for dinners, speny Nye with me etc then when she changed her mind I was dropped.

Have you being on the Out of The Fog website yet? Your description of always fitting in with others needs, and just feeling you have to accept other people’s (outrageous) behaviour makes me thing you might benefit from it.

You sound like you’re just feeling sad right now. Thinking that you’re fine is what you’ve told yourself so you can get through it all. It’s ok to not be fine, it’s ok to feel other things too.

@Pukeworthy did your DM punish you in some way for setting that boundary about what your DD called the new boyfriend? Are you putting other boundaries in place?

Welcome Shilton. I'm very new too. You've had it really tough and I'm glad you're getting the professional help you need - hold on while you wait, try to stay calm (have you tried mindfulness and meditation?). We are all grieving for the childhood we should have had but didn't, the childhood EVERY child deserves to have so why didn't we get to have it? And then on top of that we're grappling with our current relationship with the parent, and the added complication of children and whether they have the right to see them. There's a lot that I can't directly relate to in your story, but one thing that occurs to me is that my mum told me a story which included my father (who's the problem one) once saying "this f*cking family" and it made me realise that we weren't the family he had planned, in his mind we were faulty and for him to cope, we were seperate to him. These imperfect children (my brother's severely autistic, I'm the consolatery prize, second best for the son that wasn't to be) could not be his doing, they were my M's 'fault'. This has actually helped me to walk away from him. I don't get how you can feel that way about your own children, whatever the circumstances, but if he feels that way then why would I want him in my life? I have my family, my children, and I would never make them feel like I wish they hadn't happened. We didn't deserve to feel that way. We have to leave that feeling behind somehow and focus on our own family. We have to start looking forward and stop playing our past on repeat. Just so much easier said than done!

Hi Shiton
I can certainly relate to some of your experience, I was an unwanted pregnancy, sexually abused by my uncle (mother's side) from toddler age until about 7.
it's as if the uncle knows you're an unwanted child and that no one protect will you so he can treat you like an object and do what he wants to you😔
disclosed as a child, was completely ignored, disclosed as an adult, was attacked,
Estranged from both parents, recently started therapy with EMDR
I hope you find solace with us 💐

I recently received a hoover from a parent actually it was more of a Dyson, heavily implying that I should be stepping up and helping my elders and betters, and don't I know that everyone's problems are much more important than mine!!!
I will not be responding but how silly of them to give me all this information about what's in their mind when they get nothing back from me.
Come on old people..... up your game 🤣😅

when I was younger I assumed that if I told my parents that I have been abused they would care and they would want to help me, they didn't, they made it very clear that I just wasn't that important.
now here they are assuming that if they tell me that they have health problems I will naturally step up and want to help them
Don't hold your breath old people
Actually, do hold your breath, until you go blue ....do us all a favour.
Just venting a bit, thanks for listening🙏

Even now you’re a bit older you would expect to be able to tell your parents you’ve been abused and for them to protect and care for you and get justice for you. Because that’s what normal parents would do. It’s so bizarre, isn’t it?

Hiya to the new people on here, the thread has been very busy! Sorry not tagging in names but just wanted to chip in a general response to the things that have been discussed the last day or two. So the feeling of being stuck as a child in an adult world I totally understand, maybe it's because when we were developing the adult independent personality it was squashed down while we tip toed round the abusers?
I am sorry to hear the shit some of you have been through, it's truly horrific and I'm glad this thread is here so people can talk honestly to each other about their feelings and be listened to and understood.
The whole feeling 'judged' in therapy I can understand, I've done six sessions now and I have realised I am getting worried and anxious because I don't want her to get sick of listening to me or see a side of me that I don't want to show. She's not really done anything to make me feel that way but I think I am a bit desperate to be liked and talking honestly with my therapist makes me think she won't like me. Silly really but 🤷‍♀️. I think part of suffering emotional abuse makes you sensitive to judgement so you think it's happening even when it maybe isn't.
Just wanted to share something from this morning happened, it was weird. I was watching a video and it was a bloke ticking off the days to Christmas on a calendar and on Christmas Day he got a cassette out and it was a recording from his mum. She had obviously passed away and left him these cassettes to listen to each year till he was 30. She was saying how much she loved him and how she wished she could have seen what person he had become. I proper broke down and cried for about half an hour because I realised my mother didn't love me that way. Yeah in her own way I'm sure she did, but it wasn't a strong enough love to stop her husband behaving the way he did to me. I think it was a real 'moment' though, in terms of the self doubt I've been feeling about being NC. I think sometimes you can tell yourself that something is the right thing to do for x,y,z reasons (ie going NC) but struggle with 'maybe they weren't that bad' 'maybe I am being harsh' but no, my feelings have caught up with my rational brain and you know what? It feels good. I owe her nothing. I know I sound cold but I think I've acknowledged the part of myself that was the child in me that wanted their mothers love. And the grown up me has said 'it wasn't good enough; she was willing to throw you under the bus to serve her own means and she is not and never has been a decent mother to you. She was a women that put keeping a narcissistic bully happy rather than protect her own kids - so what kind of mother does that actually make her?' Adult me is full of fury on behalf of child me.
Sorry for my stream of consciousness drivel lol but I find reading other people's thoughts/experiences really helpful so thought I'd write it down x

I know I sound cold
I think that given the situation it is healthy and right to feel 'cold' towards these people Marmaduke!

Thinking about why this led to an epiphany moment....
She was saying how much she loved him and how she wished she could have seen what person he had become
for a narcissistic parent the child exists only as an extension of the parent, they would not enjoy the thought of the child outliving or outdoing them in any way!