But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
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April 2010
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March 2011
November 2011
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August-October 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Ulterego I suppose we are just delusional and living in hope that, one day, it will get better. That they will have some kind of Damascus moment and apologise and try to make it all better, but of course, that's never going to happen. If they had any kind of self awareness, they wouldn't be abusers.

Yes, regarding the cousins. People don't realise that abusers don't come out of a vacuum, they often come from very messsed up backgrounds. My mum's side is full of alcoholism and violence. No idea why my dad turned out how he did. I can understand though, not condone, my mum as her background was very difficult.

My dad seemed to have loving parents so I don't understand why he turned out to be such a nasty piece of work. His parents were, by all accounts, lovely. They died when I was very young.

Yes, I have cousins and their mother was the alter opposite to mine. Where mine was indifferent and saw us as something she needed saving from. My aunt was and still is, completely enmeshed with her children and they've never left home and are all middle-aged. They are completely crippled, it's very sad.

@parmesan189

If they had any kind of self awareness, they wouldn't be abusers.

So, so true. It was when I started to get my head round that fact I realised there would never be a Damascus moment.

I'm reading your stories and they're so upsetting. You went through some truly appalling things. Nobody should have to endure that and Im sorry it is still having an effect on you still.

But remember you have escaped. And it can only get better for you. Unlike others who don't have the strength to get away.

@parmesan189 if you have a look at ‘psychological defences’ you might find some more insights. I think your mother and your sister are more in the arena of sociopathic behaviour though. You’ve really suffered.

Hiya, sorry to post and run, but I just wanted to put in a link to the next StatelyHomes thread as it's so blooming busy these days!

Thank you, Toomuchtooold. Joining now.

@parmesan189 my mother was the enmeshing type. When I told her was pregnant with my girls, she said "my life is complete" . Didn't make her behave any better towards us though.
I remember aged 15 I was so socially anxious I wouldn't even get the bus on my own. One day I had the revelation that I would be able to get away in a few years but that if I didn't start learning how to cope with the outside world I was going to end up one of those women you see, in their 30s, doing the shopping with their mothers on a Wednesday afternoon.
I've been reading through all your posts and concur with whoever it was that said your mother is something special, even for here. I'm glad you are safe from her now. Like you I have been interested in what the actual pathology was... I suspect that my mother has paranoid personality disorder but she has most of the NPD traits as well and it was a massive revelation when I started reading about NPD. I went NC with her around that time, and the reading helped me make the decision to go NC, because for once I could see the behaviour all written down in black and white and it allowed me to think about it consciously for the first time. And I found that I already knew what the NPD websites and Stately Homes etc were telling me - that if I tried to renegotiate the relationship or take her to task about the way she treated me or my kids, she would just rage and then sulk until I apologised. Until then, in adulthood we'd had what you might call a cordial relationship, but I started to realise that the reason for that was that I had kept her on an information diet and never challenged her about anything, ever. The slightest push back would have sent her into one of those familiar old rage spirals, and there was no way I was going to be able to sit back and silently take whatever shite she was willing to deal the kids, although I'd been prepared to do it when it was just me.

@yellowlemon I'm convinced we are sisters. My mother put me in pinafores for school and was really hacked off (I was relieved) when the lady in the coop told her they didn't make them for sizes above 6-7. She used to have this thing with buying clothes where she would take personal offence if I didn't like the same things as her and it would get worse as a shopping trip went on so I would have to try and balance pissing her off with avoiding the clothes I really hated, sometimes tactically accepting something that was not great but also not hideous, in order to have enough capital with her to reject something truly awful later on.
When I was 9 she bought me a peach party dress with a big tulle underskirt, to wear to my school Christmas party. I mean, it was an objectively very pretty dress. But for a 4 year old, or maybe for an upscale wedding. Not for a Christmas party at my pretty rough school, where most of the other girls were wearing stuff out of the teenage ranges in the shops. I think my granny intervened on that one, and she ended up buying me another outfit I liked, but then on the day of the party she lays out the peach dress and starts talking about how she would have given anything for a dress like that at that age. So I wore it. And there was one other kid, he came from this sort of posh enlightened family where all the kids were encouraged to express themselves, and he turned up in a suit and a bowtie. So we sort of matched, and so it was less embarassing. And the teacher pulled us aside and said she thought it was really admirable that we were able to make our own choices and not follow the crowd. And I felt sort of ashamed that I had wanted to fit in with the crowd, and also a bit pissed off that she was assuming that I'd had a choice. She was a nice teacher. It was so hard to explain anyone anything at that age.
I also remember the thing of dreading the days when my dad wasn't in. He was never away for work but he often got overtime, and the Sundays when he was working were a nightmare because there's sod all to do on a Sunday and it would just be me and her and the sort of growing inevitability of me doing something to piss her off. I also like you yellowlemon had whooping cough (I was 13) and the worst bit was at the start, she didn't blieve anything was wrong, then the school got on to her and she took me up the doctor's, they wanted to assess me for asthma but she took the hump about it because the dcotor mentioned smoking in the house as something that would exacerbate it. Finally at one appointment the GP heard me cough and knew straight away it was whooping cough, my mother was triumphant because then it meant he'd been wrong about the asthma, and she took great pleasure in phoning and cancelling my asthma clinic referral.
At 39 I was finally diagnosed with cough variant asthma I used to have a bugger of a time ever sleeping if I got the cold. Now I have an inhaler and codeine for the cough. It's been life changing.
There's so many of these things that if nobody notices it in childhood you just never get diagnosed. It was the same, I have hay fever and fruit and animal allergies. She believed that there were only a few people who had genuine allergies, and everyone else was just an attention seeker. I don't know what you had to do to get recognised as a proper allergy sufferer - have a diagnosis I guess, although I don't know how you were supposed to get one unless you formed a suspicion in your head and went to the doctor - certainly my streaming, swollen eyes and runny nose were not enough to convince her.

I don't want to out myself here but I have a family occassion very soon and I haven't had contact with my parents for a couple of months. It's an occassion sibling has invited me too. I really feel so sick and sad today. I get the blame for my dm being on medication I get told I am nuts. None of them have ever supported me but my father doesnt speak to me anymore since I slowly pulled away from them (as in reduced visits from twice a week to once a week). He says my mother is sick and needs me. She is depressed and rude and vulgar and shouts and cries. Mocks people. She never does anything positive and when I visit she mocks my work my weight and tells me how good everyone else's daughter is. Growing up she threw a party once and when friends came from school she shouted at me that I embarrassed her as she told everyone I had no friends. Years and years of that type of thing went on.

Anyway I am over it all. I don't tell then anything. My father told me once to move as far away as possible from my mother so deep down he knows. We all walked on eggshells around her. Yet now he gives me dirty looks and tells me not to condemn her. I get on better with her than him

Anyway dh is a bit funny about the whole thing too he doesnt understand. His mother rings him everyday and tells him he's great she moves him so much. The whole thing is heart breaking for me

Do not attend this family occasion under any circumstances. Why does your sibling want you to attend anyway, is this person aware at all of you not having any contact with your parents?.

Its not you, its them. They are the dysfunctional ones here; not you.
Women like your mother cannot do relationships so the men in their lives are either discarded or are actually as narcissistic as she is. Your dad appears to be in this latter category; he has also abjectly failed you in the parenting stakes.

Its NOT your fault that your parents are this disordered of thinking and you did not make them that way. How can their health issues be your fault, they are merely looking for a scapegoat for all their inherent ills.
People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles; what are your roles here?.

This is the older thread; the current Stately Homes thread is the one that mentions "November 2019" in it. If you ask MN to move your post to that thread (or alternatively copy and paste it into the newer thread) on these pages you will get more replies that way too.

As for your DH, why is his mother doing this blowing smoke up his bum?. Their relationship seems to be highly disordered as well.

Thank You Attila dh is annoyed over losing money for flights/ accommodation and is being very quiet. We booked this month's ago when things were ok not great

What does your DH care more about; losing money or infact further losing your own respect for him?. Flights and accommodations can be amended.

His mother's relationship with him sounds very unhealthy too.

She is a nice woman though quite old fashioned and I can't really fault her. She knows what my side are like as not long after we married df screamed and shouted at dh and he told them what they are like. Dm won't go to family funerals as they are too much for her yet cares for neighbours and likes to be seen to be a good person. My niece is mixed race and she makes very racist comments behind their back. I could go on and on. The whole thing is pure nasty really.

Just wondering if this long-running thread is still running? There's a wealth of experience here which I've dipped into from time to time - and so much empathy - I do hope it keeps being active.