But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
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December 2013
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May 2017 - August 2017
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December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@AttilaTheMeerkat your comment ‘I’ll be the mummy and you be the baby’ has got so much resonance. Really powerful.

@Frazzledmummy123 you’ve made such an important breakthrough by standing up to them. We all just go along with the moods and stories because we fear the cost of losing what we have.

I’m so glad you have your DH.

Oh my. I didn't know these threads existed. I'm two years NC with my mother now. And so much happier for it (I don't feel like there's an oppressive weight on my shoulders anymore).
Unfortunately it's come at the price of my relationship with my wonderful grandmother. She acknowledges that my mother 'has her faults' but strongly believes that blood is the most important thing, so has gone NC with me until I 'make up' with my mum. This year, for the first time in my 37 years my grandmother did not send me a birthday card. I had a feeling it was coming when she didn't acknowledge our wedding anniversary either (normally hers is the lone card on the mantle).

Not only has this hurt me, but it's actually made me loathe my mother all the more. I begged my Nan not to get involved. Advocated being able to have completely separate relationships. My nan is in Wales, I'm in the SW and my mum in the SE, so I saw my nan more than anyone else. She dotes on my DC. But my mother has been in her ear. About how much she misses my DC (contact with them but not me is not an option, not a chance), how awful I am. How ungrateful I am. And so she destroyed my relationship with my nan.

My mother likes to control other people's lives. If there are relationships she doesn't approve of, she will do her best to destroy them. I've never been able to make her understand that the only relationship she was damaging was the one she should be most concerned with, the one between her and me.

I'm just venting now I guess. If it's okay, I might come back later on and explain the final straw?

My mother has toddler tantrums when things don't go her way. I have no idea what her thought processes are and I suspect she doesn't either. She just sees what she wants to see or hears what she wants to hear...and reacts

Do we have the same mother?!

Sadly no, Highheels, because if you and I were sisters, we'd be a great support for each other in RL

Welcome to the thread though. It's been such a strong source of comfort for me and I hope it will be the same for you too.

Indeed @SingingLily. I have a brother who was always the golden child growing up (despite physical abuse towards me that she allowed to happen because it was easier than disciplining him, but that's another post). As an adult, he has always given in to her tantrums 'for a quiet life'. I was the troublemaker because I wouldn't back down on issues that I felt strongly about. Two years ago, he stood up to her for the first time. And did he know about it. In addition to the fallout of her then blaming me for his decision (I had manipulated him apparently, again, I'm in SW and they're in SE), I then had to counsel him through her barrage of abuse.
He's been yo-yoing between no/limited/full contact ever since. He hasn't been broken down over nearly 30 years like I have. He's not there yet.
But it does mean that I need to be his support when she kicks off. Which puts me right back into her batshittery.

don't take any prisoners
scorched earth
just cut them out
These people are poison, sometimes they can be quarantined successfully but realistically over the long term they are only going to get worse

highheels hi!
Good work on protecting yourself but don’t let your brothers stuff become your stuff any more than is good for you. You can point him in the direction of the support stuff available at the beginning of this thread if you’re not in a good place. Learning to not feel compelled to carry other people’s loads is part of this journey.

@Herocomplex thank you for taking the time to write such a caring and supportive post. It actually brought tears to my eyes. You're right, I need to bring all these emotions into my session later.

Twenty you are so very welcome.

There’s usually a bit at the beginning of a session where you ‘check in’ (where would you like to start/how has this week been etc) This week get your money’s worth. Xxx

@Herocomplex it really feels like a long time coming. I've been putting a brave face on it. My siblings are totally blanking me. Furious I expect, I feel like the bombshell is coming soon and my anxiety is huge.

My DM will also sometimes talk in a childs voice. I work with children, and I feel emotionally my DM is 'stuck' at aged about five years old. The way she behaves and responds to slights and criticisms is exactly the same as a young child would. Sulky, pouty, hurt looks and general defensive huffiness. I'd love to be able to tell her how her behaviour makes me feel, but its just not possible because she doesn't seem to able to deal with it like a normally functioning human being would.

Can all to readily relate to that Manon, I have myself noticed that behaviour in my MIL. She at times really does adopt a type of babyish and sing song, "here comes looby lou" type voice straight out of a tv show from the 1950s. Again she is someone who is emotionally stuck at around the age of six.

She is also wont to sit by the phone and keep the line clear on Sunday afternoon just in case her darling boy calls. She knows very well that if he does phone her, it won't be until late Sunday evening in any event.

I'm new to this thread but feel better already knowing that there are people out there talking to each other who perhaps didn't suffer physical abuse, but it is abuse all the same. I'm now NC with my father after he was verbally aggressive towards my 11 year old on the phone then hung up on her because she hadn't sent him a thank you in writing for a birthday present quickly enough (it was 10 days later, I had emailed to acknowledge receipt of the gift, she was actually phoning to say thank you - we had tried straight away and he'd been out, which I told him in my email) and it was the last straw. He hung up on me when I tried to call him back to discuss it. He emailed with another rant about the lack of gratitude and rudeness of children in this day and age, and continued to rant even after I emailed back with a long reply telling him that he generally tried to make me feel bad as a person and a parent, and I'd had enough. His only direct response to what I said was "So be it". Which I should be grateful for, as I honestly don't want him to try to change my mind.

He's bitter and angry about a life that was ruined by marrying my mother (who dared to sometimes stand up to his childish behaviour) and having a son with a severe learning disability (my brother). Oh and a daughter who has by some miracle grown up to be reasonably well balanced, although he doesn't know the depression and therapy I've been through to get to where I am, and I'm by no means 'fixed' yet. I grew up walking on egg shells in case he stopped just being silently angry and erupted into slamming doors and swearing, or rowing with my mother, or shouting at me for something trivial that I'd done wrong, or my brother for 'making those stupid noises' (which he couldn't help). The silence was better but still not pleasant (they continued living in the same house but almost entirely separately until I was 19). He's an academic snob with a superiority complex, which means he thinks he's better than everyone, including (especially) my husband who's 'just' a carpet fitter, and doesn't acknowledge my post-graduate success because I didn't get to a 'proper' university in the first place, but is actually I now think feeling inferior and jealous because we're still happily married and we've built/extended to get a nice house (he didn't have enough left after the divorce for his own property, so now owns the smaller share of a property with his partner - it sounds like I'm being materialistic, I really don't care about this kind of thing). I didn't want for anything when I was a child (family trips to stately homes weren't quite on the agenda, but I was spoilt in terms of toys, horse riding, piano lessons, etc.), and my mum did her best to make it as 'normal' as possible, but my self-esteem really suffered because of the lack of fatherly love and support that I now see my DH giving our DDs. I think something happened in his childhood (definitely a strict father who died young and a wierd relationship with his mother who I remember as very sweet so I'm thinking probably enabled and denied what his father did and he possibly despised her for it) that meant he didn't fully develop emotionally and has ended up with narcissistic tendencies - and the reason I cry now is because I sympathise with that, I empathise and even feel sorry for him - but I can't let it continue to impact on my well-being and there's no way I'm going to let it directly impact on my children. I feel so much less anxious knowing I don't have to see or speak or even write to him, when I carefully consider every word in case it gives him the opportunity to make some kind of negative comment or criticism.

I'm sorry for the long post, but its good to get some of it off my chest. I hope I can contribute in the future to help others somehow, we are all good people who had inadequate parenting.

Hi FreshStart01 he’s done you a favour. He sounds appalling, a complete bully. The feeling sorry for your narcissist parent is part of the rationalising process - they must be suffering to be so vile to me. They CHOOSE to behave like they do.
Do you have a relationship with your mother?

@dontknowdontknow i hear you. My mum gave me a day or two of peace but is back on the case now. The bombshell is coming...i just need it to be after my job interview so im hunkering down

((((hugs)))) to you Freshstart.
As said, just get rid, you cant do anything with that one.
If he was a dog you'd keep him muzzled and on a very short lead.

let the bombshell sail over your head at a safe distance and land somewhere in the sea
you dont have to take the hit Pukeworthy!

@Herocomplex Thank you. I do have a good relationship with my mother and always have, although part of being a sibling of a child with disabilities is that you don't want to cause your parents further worry, so I've not always been completely open about how low I've felt. He tried to poison my mind against her, and I have to admit that in a sense he did, but now I can see that a lot of her behaviour which I saw as weaknesses (sometimes neurotic, lacking in confidence with things like driving, not going back to work) are because he put her down all the time. And what she's said to me really recently, since I made the decision to go NC, I really don't know the half of it when it comes to how he behaved towards her, possibly gaslighting, etc. She's never lowered herself to his level of slagging him off as she didn't want to poison my relationship with him (he did that all on his own).

Can I have a virtual hug please? I've been very low, practically no contact with my mother for a few years. The relief and mental peace was wonderful. However, she's in hospital, has been for a few days and will probably be in for a few more. I don't want to be sucked back in to contact, but she's alienated everyone else, my siblings, her siblings and extended family. No one else wants to see her. She's had no visitors except me and my partner, despite telling us how wonderful all her friends and neighbours are. I hate the woman. I hate that I still react to her behaviour. I hate that although she's selfish, abusive and totally self engrossed, if I don't visit no one will. I'm back to the stomach churning stress of dealing with her. I'm sick of the sense of responsibility overriding the affect she has on my mental health. I've been in 3 times, once each of the last 3 days. She's ramping it up daily. She's all sweetness and light to the medical staff and strangers, but a poisonous bitch to me. She was on top form today. An absolute peach of a bitch. I travelled 45 minutes to see her and could only tolerate her for not even 5 minutes before I left and spent another 45 minutes getting home. That was over 6 hours ago and I'm still rattling with the stress and rage of it all. I can't face going back in to see her. She'll do the whole "what did I do/say to upset you" act. I want to go totally no contact. I know those on this thread will get my dilemma. Please give me your permission to give a final fuck it and walk away.

Sending hugs Fresh. I can relate to what you've said about your mum. My dad has never, ever said a bad word about my mother in front of me. He wanted us to have a good relationship, despite their acrimonious divorce. My mother didn't offer me the same courtesy and I grew up with her constantly slagging him off to me, telling lies and making up stories. Despite all this, and a distance of hundreds of miles, I've managed to build a wonderful, close relationship with my dad. In the last couple of years I've asked him outright about things and just now he's beginning to fill in the other side of the story. He's still deeply uncomfortable about it, concerned that he's driving a further wedge between us, but I've explained that the wedge is her doing, now I'm just looking for answers.

@Justmuddlingalong Here. Consider this your permission to put yourself and your mental health first. Walk away. There's a reason that no-one else visits her. Do not take that burden on. This is the bed she has made for herself. It's time for her to lie on it.
Sending you virtual hugs and a hand hold.

I agree with ulterego @Pukeworthy spike her guns, don’t take the assault. When she starts you just stop. She won’t be expecting it. Have your calm responses ready. I write BOUNDARIES on a piece of paper and underline it. Once you begin to stand steady you’ll be amazed at how strong you are.

@Justmuddlingalong permission very much granted. Live your life, find some peace. 💐

Here's a third voice giving permission, Justmuddlingalong, as well as a virtual hug.

if I don't visit no one will.

Her choice. Her choice to behave the way she does, her choice to alienate everyone in her life, her choice always - not yours. This is not a situation of your making and you've done more than enough - certainly far more than she deserves.

Time to let go now, and walk away.

((((Justmuddlingalong))))
I want to go totally no contact
Do it, dont respond at all, it takes all the power away from her, dont allow her to consume you, people shouldnt be able to devour their own children we're not living in the old testament fgs!

Mum has texted suggesting family mediation. My first thoughts are that I do not want this. She needs to work on herself first. DSis thinks it might be a good idea. Urgh