But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@BodySaysNO Thank you. You know I never saw it as bad, just how it was.

My mother mostly lies for that reason too, I think.

It's very difficult to work out motivation. What I was trying to explain was that she doesn't just make stuff up for the sake of it, she lies to cover herself and her crappy behaviour. She also plays the victim. Her family rally around her, saying she wasn't responsible because of my dad. (He was just as bad) She always plays the victim card and she twists everything to make you look like the one in the wrong.

She lies for control. Big lies, small lies, clearly calculated evil lies, and bizarre, pointless lies that seem to just slip out of her mouth unbidden.

My mum doesn't do that. Only lies for covering herself, she doesn't make stuff up. Though, like I said, she accuses others of lying all the time, which is weird. I really can't work out why she does it but my sister does it as well. I think it's such strange behaviour and I wish I knew why they were doing it.

I'm really sorry to hear about the sexual abuse. I feel so lucky that that didn't happen to me as my parents were so neglectful that they wouldn't have noticed. There is no way I would have gone to them with anything like that as I would have been frightened of being blamed and hit for it. It's unforgiveable that she covered it up. I hope you're no longer in contact with her, really she should be in jail for allowing that.

This too! sad Near constant invalidation of any kind of pain, ESPECIALLY if she'd been the one to inflict it.
"It did not hurt, don't be so ridiculous"
"Oh, here come the dramatics...!"
"You're such a prima donna!"
"Get over yourself!"

Yes, constant invalidation. 'I'm cold.' 'No you're not.' 'I have a headache.' 'No you don't.' However, with my mum she would lose her patience with you after a while. My older sister used to complain a lot as I suppose she wanted attention. She was complaining about her back once and my mum threw her down and started stamping on her back telling her that she'd give her something to complain about. Another time my sister was whining about something in the bath (when we were younger, we were bathed together) and my mum pushed her head under the water. I think my older sister had to pull her off.

I can't believe yours was flirting with the ambulance driver instead of being sick with worry about her own daughter. It doesn't compute. I'm sorry that happened.

Mine was prone to violent outbursts too. That look of apoplectic rage and hatred on her face will be with me forever I think. sad Terrifying losses of control on her part. Horrendous experiences. Far too much time spent sitting against my door as hard as I could, in tears, pleading to just be left alone, please!, with her trying to barge and scream her way through to get to me.

Yes my mum was the same, bulging yes and spit coming out of her mouth as she screamed. Strange she never lost her job though.

Of course, if you ask her, she'll tell you most emphatically that of course she NEVER hit her children! She would NEVER, EVER do that!! [shocked] Or depending on her mood and context, she may say "I have hit them, yes, but they hit me first!!" (untrue, in case it isn't obvious!

My mum admits to hitting us but everyone hit their kids then and I was also hit at school by teachers. It wasn't seen as bad to hit your children. She doesn't admit to hitting us anymore or less than others. I accused her of being abusive in my 30s (big mistake) and she completely denied it. Tried to turn it into a pity party for herself. Strangely, my mum has also never blamed me for her behaviour, she blames my dad. She must see that blaming your children for their abuse is wrong (weird).

My mum isn't a narcissist, she doesn't really fit the criteria. I think she has narcissistic traits but not full on NPD. My mum also has a low IQ, almost childlike and she's also very naive. Perhaps arrested development. She's very gullible as well, she believes anything.

She's very dominating and overbearing, very controlling, aggressive, everything has to be about her. Every situation will be made about her and her needs. That's the way we were brought up, to tip toe around our mother, to make sure she wasn't going to snap at any minute, to anticipate her. We were controlled by raging and violence.

I'm so sorry, this was also your childhood and I'm so sorry about your Step Dad and your mum's passivity. I really hope you aren't in contact with her any more.

Accusing others of lying when lying yourself (but not admitting or being aware of it) is one of the defence mechanisms recognised by psychologists. Its called projection.
‘Projection is the misattribution of a person’s undesired thoughts, feelings, or impulses onto another person who does not have those thoughts, feelings or impulses. Projection is used especially when the thoughts are considered unacceptable for the person to express, or they feel completely ill at ease with having them. For example, a spouse may be angry at their significant other for not listening, when in fact it is the angry spouse who does not listen. Projection is often the result of a lack of insight and acknowledgement of one’s own motivations and feelings.’

@Herocomplex Thank you for that. My mum and sister's accusations go beyond that though. They tell you that you haven't experienced something so it's similar to gaslighting. I was telling my sister something that happened to me at work and she told me that it didn't happen. She wasn't there, she didn't experience it, she has no evidence that it didn't happen but she swears up and down that it couldn't possibly have happened. I was diagnosed with a chronic illness in 2013 and despite having hospital appointments and having gone through an extensive diagnostic process of six months, both my mum and sister deny there is anything wrong with me and call me a hypochondriac and a liar.

They deny actual physical evidence. I think it's because I'm the family scapegoat and they refuse to acknowledge that I could be vulnerable as it would make them look bad. I have no idea. I'm trying to work it out. I took someone to court for harassment and, though he now has a criminal conviction and admitted his guilt in court and there was a restraining order against him, both my mum and sister deny it happened, accuse me of making it up and had a go at me for hounding him through court. That goes beyond projection in my opinion.

If anyone could shed some light on why they do that, it would be really helpful. It matters to me that they do it and I'd like to know possible explanations as to why.

Apart from the truly shocking violent behaviour, my mother is very similar to yours, Parmesan. She's not the brightest either and there was never any point in challenging her simplistic views because I would try to argue on the grounds of logic whereas she would always argue emotionally. Apples and pears.

My DSis thinks M has an undiagnosed MH disorder. She favours bipolar and it's true that M fits much of the criteria. I think M has an undiagnosed personality disorder; I lean towards covert narcissism and that fits too. From what I've read, there is a great deal of crossover between the two. However, neither DSis nor I are psychiatrists or psychologists. The one thing we do agree on is that M would never accept there was anything wrong with her. It's everyone around her who has a problem. They're the ones who need help (ironically, that bit is true).

It could be that your mother is in the same sort of crossover place where there would be no clear diagnosis. However, even that is academic. We could drive ourselves mad trying to understand why they behave as they do and still be no nearer the truth. We just need to be able to recognise and acknowledge the toxic effects on our own mental health and emotional wellbeing and find ways to make ourselves safe.

Sorry, Parmesan, cross-posted there. I was responding to your previous post and should have refreshed the page before I posted. I really don't mean to make it look as though I am dismissing your need to understand why they behave as they do - please accept my apologies.

In relation to your last post, I think it's the lethal combination of lack of empathy and their overwhelming need to preserve the facade of the perfect family. Even though it's anything but. Again, it's something my mother is an expert at.

Is it hugely important to your mother and sister what "the neighbours might say" or "what people would think"? If it is, that would be significant.

@SingingLily I'm sorry yours was the same. I suppose the reason we look for reasons is so we can try to categorise it and make sense of it. For example, if she's BPD (borderline or I think it's now called something else) then you can look up the criteria and make some kind of sense of it and in a way, you can predict it. For example, you know she'd going to kick off if she feels as though she's going to be abandoned and you can say, that rage is triggered by such and such.

I understand that in the end, what matters is how it affects you and that you ultimately protect yourself from it. I'm no contact with her now as when I started to put boundaries in place it completely enraged her and her behaviour just got really, really bad.

Parmesan my interpretation of what you say is that they have to cling to their version of events because it feels so important for them to maintain the status quo that they are right and you are wrong.
This need to always frame you as the bad person or the wrong person comes from the unconscious and they just don't have the critical thinking skills to question their own motives or question their own drives.
When you have someone who's not very strong intellectually but they have a domineering personality and/or are in a position of power, they understand at an intuitive level that the people over whom they hold power are clever enough to out think them and their need to stay in power drives them to crush/deny/damage in any way that they can.
We can also think about this in terms of impulse control, if you can't control your temper then your anger leaps out before your brain has a chance to rationally analyse things...being in a state of heightened emotional arousal shuts down your ability to think rationally about what's going on.

People who 'know' that they are right don't see any reason to reflect upon their own behaviour, it feels natural and right to them to just act on their own impulses....and they become tyrants.
(That was all a bit rambly but I hope it makes some sense!)

@SingingLily God, no need to apologise. I completely understand why it's more important to protect yourself and not worry too much about the whys of their behaviour.

Although, to counter that. It's useful for self protection. I don't know what's wrong with my mother, something obviously is. People advised me to put down boundaries with her and that endangered me to do so. It aggravated her and made her violent and dangerous. It was completely the wrong thing to do given her pathology, whatever that is. So I suppose, it would have been helpful to know what would have triggered violence so that I could have protected myself better.

I never should have accused her of being abusive because there was no way she was ever going to admit it and her behaviour was just insane afterwards and she set out to break me.

Parmesan, reading what you say about your mum and your sister puts me in mind of 'folie a deux' in the sense that they seem to be participating in a shared delusion, perhaps I am overstating things but if you search that term maybe it would shed a little light or ring some bells?
To SingingLilly's points about lack of empathy, this has to be a really big factor it doesn't it, if you lack the ability to empathize, if you lack the ability and the motivation to introspect, well you can see how these things will feed upon each other...

There's a lot in what Ulter says. Isn't anger, as an emotion, a hangover from our Palaeolithic days? That's why sudden rage overtakes every part of our brain and temporarily supersedes logic and reason. It's also why we encourage people to breathe deeply and count to ten.

By challenging your mother, Parmesan, you caused her narcissistic injury and that prompted narcissistic rage. I think that might be the answer as to why your mother suddenly turned violent.

Attila could tell you all about the truly shocking phenomenon that is narcissistic rage. She once correctly identified my mother's behaviour when I described an extreme example. It was like watching something out of The Exorcist. M's sudden voice change was terrifying. It sounded as though it had come up from the Gates of Hell. Even her face didn't look like her own.

We are truly blessed, aren't we?

@Ulterego Thanks for taking the time to talk about this, I really appreciate it.

My mum has a low IQ, she's very gullible and naive. My sister isn't. I think regarding my sister, she has taken the side of the aggressor. She used to be the scapegoat when we were young as the eldest she caught all the flack. I survived by hiding in the shadows and not drawing attention to myself as my mum's rage was very unpredictable. She used to hit me for just looking at her. Hence, I kept out of the way.

I was something of the golden child because I wasn't 'difficult'. My older sister got the most of the violence and aggression, she was like a lightening rod for it. She has always been very jealous of me. She was a dreadful bully and still is.

As I got older, I didn't toe the line. I became more 'difficult' as I refused to bow under when my mum was trying to crush me. I was accusing my mum of being a child abuser, it stirred up trouble and though, my sister loved witnessing me in trouble, she didn't like the hassle it was causing as I was constantly arguing with my mother. It made people uncomfortable.

My sister is obviously very enmeshed with my mother. She is loving me as a scapegoat and she is also domineering and likes the control it gives her to be on the side of the aggressor. She's also deeply, deeply in denial. Won't admit we were abused.

Why she's is denying actual physical evidence is completely irrational but yes, I've come to the conclusion that it's me as scapegoat. If I have vulnerabilities like being ill, they look bad for their behaviour so, it works for them to cast me as a liar. Even though, I have nothing to gain from lying. Why on earth would I hound someone through court and get them to admit something they hadn't done? It simply doesn't make sense.

@SingingLily I'm sorry to hear your mum behaves like something out of the exorcist and her voice changed. That must have been very frightening.

Perhaps it is narcissistic injury, I don't know. I saw it as a bit simpler than that in that she saw me as a threat. A threat to her image. She saw me as a loose cannon and I wasn't shutting up about it so she wanted to destroy me.

What she did was ostracize me for betraying her. She began to talk about 'her family' meaning my sisters. I would be expected to be at family events but no one would talk to me or acknowledge me. Even at my own birthday, no one spoke to me. They all sat together while I was by myself. It was the last birthday I spent with them, obviously. However for a long time I kept going back and getting the same treatment. The treatment got worse the more I refused to knuckle under and I'm estranged from them all. My mum was treating me like a dog at her house, she would clap her hands and tell me to get off the sofa so she and 'her family' could sit down.

Parmesan I've just read back through some of your earlier posts, I hadn't realised quite how off The charts your mother was, she was shark infested custard (not that anything she did was remotely a laughing matter so I shouldn't be making jokes) thick and dangerous, she really ought not have been a parent
How terrifying for children to be left in the charge of a monster 😥 are you safe from her now?

Even at my own birthday, no one spoke to me.

💐Parmesan, I'm glad you are out of all that. They don't deserve you. And you deserve far far better.

Imo 'narcissistic injury' is another way of saying she saw you as a threat, the injury is to the self-esteem of the narcissistic person, so it's a threat/injury to their self-esteem
That's roughly my understanding of things anyway

Just reading all this about the rages.

My father used to work away from home quite a lot when we were small. I dreaded it because like clockwork you were either going to get the silent treatment, rages, smacks on the legs with a hairbrush, grabbing arms so tight that she left pinch marks. You knew something was coming but never sure what it was going to be. And it was all completely irrational so there was nothing you could do to prevent it or stop it. You could beg, plead, cry, try and hide. Nothing could stop them

And yes, that change of voice resonates with me.

My father would come home and she’d be all sweetness and light again. Well her version of sweetness and light at least.

For ages I used to think she was like that because he left her. And of course I was right in a way. Just coming at it from the wrong angle.

He used to spend a night a week away from home with his sister. Some excuse about breaking up his travel to work.

As I got older I realise that was BS - he just needed a break from her. Didn’t matter that his children were left to suffer. And he knew exactly what was going on.

I laugh to myself at the fact she thinks he adored her and they had this perfect marriage. He didn’t. He couldn’t stand her. He was just too pathetic to do anything about her.

Oh and the flirting. She'd try and flirt with everyone. It was embarrassing because my mother has her bitterness and her twistedness written all over her face. Hard to explain without sounding really shallow.

When my father was dying our family GP used to call round quite a lot even if we didn’t have an appointment. Because it was his job but I do wonder if because he was a doctor he had some inkling of what our household was like.

Anyway one day he’d been and he’d been explaining to me about what to expect in the last few days.

As soon as he’d left my mother turned and said to me with this grotesque ‘sexy grin’ on her face and says ‘I think Dr xxx fancies me and that’s why he’s round here all the time.’

@Ulterego I haven't told you about my dad yet

Seriously, it's no problem. The way we dealt with it (me and my sisters) was laughing about it. We'd do impressions of my mum and make jokes. That's another reason why my sister turned on me alongside my mother. She wanted us to continue laughing and telling anecdotes about 'silly mum' but I was now an adult and fully aware that 'silly mum' was a nasty piece of work who should have been arrested.

My sister didn't like the way I was talking about our mother as, like most abused children, we have a very strong trauma bond with our parents. My dad was just as bad but with the added addition of being a drunk. He was far more intelligent than our mother and also a thoroughly nasty piece of work that should never have gone near children. I haven't seen him in 20 years and because of that, my sisters are angry at me at how I've treated him. I'm the 'black sheep' un bloody believable that I'm the bad one in this scenario.

Yes I'm safe. I finally worked out that there was nothing for me but abuse from my family so I walked away. My mum is banned from my house and blocked on my phone. I haven't seen my dad for 20 years. I haven't seen my sisters for a few years.

Oh God, Yellowlemon, no need to explain that weird false sense of self. Like the day my mother screeched to a halt and did a double-take at a larger-than-life-sized poster of David Gandy in the display window of M&S, saying "Well, I wish the father of my children had looked like that" and proceeded to make loud appreciative remarks about his physique. My father looked like he'd been smacked in the face with a wet fish. I wanted the ground to swallow me up.

DH mouthed "Alzheimer's" to gobsmacked passers-by and their shocked expressions turned to ones of sympathy - M was 81 at the time.

I apologise to anyone caring for a loved one with Alzheimer's. M doesn't have it. She's always said stuff like that.

@SingingLily Thank you. I'm not out of it, not really. I have low self esteem and bad anxiety. I've had several abusive relationships as I had no idea whatsoever what a healthy relationship was like. I'm ill as well and I think that's from years of abuse. I also have PTSD and panic disorder. I'm also very isolated as I keep people at arm's length as I attract narcissists and am sick of being used and abused by people.

@SingingLily Ha - that David Gandy story made me laugh. Your DH's response just brilliant.

I know we shouldn't laugh but what else can we do sometimes?

Parmesan, an upbringing like that is bound to leave you with scars from the trauma, from the things that happened to you that you just weren't able to cope with, some of the trauma is expressed as psychological issues some of it is expressed as health issues.
You have survived, you are still standing, you are on here talking to us about what happened seeing it rationally and with clear eyes, you're intelligent and you have insight and you have empathy for other people, your parents were just an entry point into the world, you came through them but you are not from them (borrowing from the Khalil gibran poem)
You say that you attract narcissists, I can relate to that I seem to mostly attractive people who want to exploit me, I think it's possible that by understanding how this all works we can can turn this into a situation where we have an enhanced ability to spot predators (rather than an enhanced vulnerability to predators)

@Ulterego Thank you for that. I don't know your story but I'm sorry you also attract narcissists. The time time I've spent away from my mother, the more the fog is clearing and I can see it for what it is. I blamed myself for years and internalised all their insults and criticisms.

I've done loads don't worry. I have three degrees, have travelled etc (don't want to say too much as it's outing). I wish I had walked away from my mother years ago as it's been so liberating and my anxiety has improved so much from not being in contact with her and the rest of the family who are all off their heads and similar. My cousins are more fucked up than me but that's a different story.

I'm glad you're still standing too. Onwards and upwards.

I also wish I had walked away from both parents years ago, I also have cousins who are very messed up, they never got the opportunity to detach from their parents, they stayed and they were eaten alive

My sister is an interesting one. She’s very similar to my mother - childlike, stubborn, not interested in debate or thinking about things much.

She’s what I call an extreme breast feeder - last I heard she was still breastfeeding both her kids. And she spends an awful lot of her time on Facebook going on and on and on about how breastfeeding is good and formula is bad. If someone says something like stop trying to make people feel ashamed for formal feeding she’ll come back with ‘I’m not making you feel ashamed. That’s your choice to feel ashamed.” That sort of thing.

To me that shows a lack of empathy - she doesn’t understand people can be affected by her words. And of course the superiority.

She once got suspended from her job as a teaching assistant. I found out completely by accident and don’ know the reasons why.

I said to my dad I heard sister got suspended from her job. What happened?

And he said ‘Oh it’s nothing. Some of the parents decided to bully her because she’s so young’.

My sister would have been about 35 at the time.