But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Yes, that's a good point, Singing, I hadn't thought of that.

Yes, today has already been much better than yesterday, thank you. Despite really loving Autumn/Winter, I'm wondering if it's possible to also suffer SAD and maybe that added to yesterday's gloominess.

Have been pointed to this thread yesterday and reading with total identification. Both parents are narcissists. Yes they did a lot for me and my siblings but also absent and neglectful in a 'benign' way. I wasn't helped to make friends, my life revolves around theirs. Alcohol was abused and shaped my own relationship with it. I have a lot of anger towards them but I was codependent for decades. I'm trying to break that now just as they face financial ruin and try to hitch their future to ours and move in which I'm saying no to. They are furious and emotionally manipulative. So much of the characteristics on the links above relate to them. They lie, are unwell around money, manipulate, my mother is jealous of everything I have and is very much of the opinion that she deserves the good life. I find them triggering and exhausting to be around. I'm sad typing this. They are using my reliance on them as a quid pro quo for taking them in but for my own MH and my family I refuse to do it. I'm actually quite scared this will be the end of my family. They are very close to my children. My mother is all about the drama. She has no idea how to behave well. I have spent my entire life being embarrassed by her,

If you had a narcissist for a parent, you lived in a world governed by whim enforced without mercy.

Narcissists have normal, even superior, intellectual development while remaining emotionally and morally immature. Dealing with them can give you the sense of trying to have a reasonable discussion with a very clever six-year-old -- this is an age when normal children are grandiose and exhibitionistic, when they are very resistant to taking the blame for their own misbehavior, when they understand what the rules are (e.g., that lying, cheating, and stealing are prohibited) but are still trying to wriggle out of accepting those rules for themselves. This is the year, by the way, when children were traditionally thought to reach the age of reason and when first communions (and first confessions) were made.

Following on from what SingingLily wrote I think that narcissists stick at about the emotional level of a six year old. Having a narcissist for a mother (as my DH has sadly done along with many of you) is a lot like living under the supervision of a six-year-old. Narcissists are always pretending, and with a narcissistic mother it's a lot like, "Let's play house. I'll pretend to be the mother and you pretend to be the baby," though, as the baby, you'll be expected to act like a doll (keep smiling, no matter what) and you'll be treated like a doll -- as an inanimate object, as a toy to be manipulated, dressed and undressed, walked around and have words put in your mouth; something that can be broken but not hurt, something that will be dropped and forgotten when when something more interesting comes along.

Given distance, or only transient and intermittent contact, you can get along with narcissists by treating them as infants: you give them whatever they want or need whenever they ask and do not expect any reciprocation at all, do not expect them to show the slightest interest in you or your life (or even in why you're bothering with them at all), do not expect them to be able to do anything that you need or want, do not expect them to apologize or make amends or show any consideration for your feelings, do not expect them to take ordinary responsibility in any way. But note: they are not infants; infants develop and mature and require this kind of care for only a brief period, after which they are on the road to autonomy and looking after themselves, whereas narcissists never outgrow their demands for dedicated attention to their infantile needs 168 hours a week. Adult narcissists can be as demanding of your time and energy as little babies but without the gratification of their growing or learning anything from what they suck from you. Babies love you back, but adult narcissists are like vampires: they will take all you can give while giving nothing back, then curse you for running dry and discard you as a waste of their precious time.

My ILs would be a good case study for the likes of Dr Raj Persaud.
I have learnt over the years not to at all bother with my MIL or BIL now because they are really both as dysfunctional as one another. My late FIL was of a similar bent but he was more overt in terms of his narcissistic and otherwise dysfunctional personality. MIL is more covert in her dealings with people and always but always wants to be "good".

@AttilaTheMeerkat YES! Juvenile and infantile - real world conduct and rules do not apply. Life is unfair and everything is everyone else's fault. I get no emotional support from them. Their relationship with me is predicated on seeing their grandchildren. Because I went to private school and they supported me financially I feel like they expect payback time. Yet, there was no sense that they parented me, encouraged me or did anything to recognise my talents and achievements. Neither of them are particularly well educated and their POV is that "well we tried our best". I suffer from depression and anxiety and have done since childhood. Not once did they question the school or consider I would have been happier elsewhere. They had friends there and that was their priority.

attilla beautifully put and dontknow same, welcome

Lets not forget the narcissistic rage that also bubbles away in the background. When that does come to the fore it is both sudden and one hell of a sight.

I will give you a recent example. MIL is at some church lunch thing the other week with her sister. The conversation somehow gets around to mobility issues and downstairs toilets. MIL's sister makes a comment to the effect that she had a downstairs loo put in some years back at her late H's behest (mainly because he was also forward thinking). MIL then spits out in front of the whole grouping, "well at least you have a downstairs toilet!!!". Silence follows. Envy and spite holds no bounds to such disordered people like MIL.

My favourite look of hers is her deer caught in the headlights look when she has been caught out or otherwise bang to rights.

Ooh, I recognise that "deer caught in the headlights" look, Attila. It's swiftly followed by a sudden whirring of the cogs in the brain and a sudden screeching U-turn that leaves you wondering what on earth just happened.

Hey everybody, thanks for the new thread tooold. Hope your Sundays are going well. Used to be phone call day, oh the relief!

I've posted lots about my DM on this thread and on others in the past. Im just so sick of acting like her fucking surrogate parent. A few weeks ago DM and I went away on a hen weekend with for a family member, I wouldn't normally go away with her but made the exception for family.

On the second night she got horrendously drunk, she was pissed by early evening despite knowing that a meal and drinks were booked for that night. This is no surprise as she IMO has an alcohol dependency and simply doesnt know how to drink responsibly or pace herself. By about 9pm she was dropping huge hints that she was ready to go back to the hotel to sleep it off, that of course meant that I should take her. I ignored her and carried on trying to enjoy myself. She was blotto by this point and then fell asleep at the table. At 11.30pm I relented and though it was probably late enough by this point so we left, I had to help her down the stairs and out onto the road. It was quite isolated and we couldn't find a taxi to begin and with being in a strange city I didnt know where to go any numbers to ring. DM then attempts to walk home, I stop her tell her that we are miles away from the hotel, and it was freezing cold. But she wanted to go and sleep off the alcohol there and then. I probably rather stupidly pointed out that if she hadnt got so drunk and had paced herself we could have waited for the rest of the party and gone home altogether.

Well this provoked the most absurd rant about how she has to do everything, how she's sick of doing everything for everyone(?) and then went on and on about all the money she's spent on me over the years. It bore no relevance whatsoever to the matter at hand, that she had got stupidly drunk, made a twat of herself, ruined my night and left us stranged in the middle of a strange city. Thankfully a taxi appeared, I hailed it and we got back to the hotel safely. She then passed out, I was left reeling and miffed that she'd ruined my night,

With regards to spending money on me. I never ask for money from her ever, she does however use money and gift giving as a means of manipulation. Offering to buy really expensive things that DB and I cant afford, usually shoes and clothes. So for her to chuck that back at me was really odd, but its just proves that its no done out of love and comes at a cost.

I dont even know what advice I want to be honest? I just need to vent!

MrsNotNice I can hear your pain and confusion in trying to understand your family dynamics. You’re giving a great deal of headspace to it, worrying at like a puzzle to be solved. The trick now is to move yourself into that position of thinking and care.

You’ve been emotionally neglected which is why you can’t separate the idea of prioritising your own needs from the idea of selfishness.

Knowing what you want and taking care of your needs is essential for your own wellbeing. Always putting others needs before yours isn’t healthy.

Start consciously thinking about yourself more and them less. When the thoughts are overwhelming find a distraction.

They won’t change, but you can.

Manon bloody hell, if that was a friend I’d have made that the very last night out with them ever.

She doesn’t think if you as a person with feelings, just as her property to use and abuse, bought and paid for. If you feel inclined tell her to sort out her drink dependency as that seems to be her primary relationship.

I’m so sorry, she sounds like a very heavy responsibility. I’d start to make her take more of it on herself. You can’t carry on like this if you want to feel better. 💐

The drink dependency is the white elephant in the room, she gets very defensive when challenged about it. The last person to do so was her sister, who made a joke about it rather than confronted it and she hit the roof. She is oh so sensitive to criticism and reacts either with anger as she did with me on the hen weekend, or just totally shuts down and ignores you. I remember one time she actually turned her back on me and just stared at the window. That was over something minor as well.

She struggles to understand boundaries, she will often talk on my behalf and she never ever knocked on my bedroom door growing up. She would just barge in.

I realise we are locked in quite an unhealthy toxic co dependency and Im trying to address it, but its hard.

I saw this thread after I'd posted my question about my family. It looks full of support and good advice, I will be following (and posting?) with interest.

It’s hard and heartbreaking Manon. You can start to think about what you want, her needs are not more important than yours. Have you looked at the Out of The Fog website? It’s helpful when you want to find a way forward, it brings clarity.

Blimey dontknowdontknow welcome. You’re getting a crash course in dealing with dysfunction! I’m glad you’re getting good advice on your other thread, it’s very hard when people give you the ‘they’re your parents, you owe them’ nonsense. It doesn’t apply in this case. Remember your needs and wants are just as important as any other adults.

Hi all. Thanks for the new thread.

I name change frequently but have posted before about my revelations in therapy over the past 6 months about my truly dysfunctional family.

Does anyone else really hate their therapy sessions?? I know it's benefiting me, so I keep going. I trust my therapist and have built a relationship with her. But it's just so painful. I dread each week. I find it so hard to talk about things I've shut down for decades.

I've got my session later today, which is why it's on my mind. I can feel my body tensing up already in anticipation.

Yes I’ve been to therapy for 2 session and third one tomorrow and I’m finding the whole thing hard I feel like I made a fool of myself and I feel a bit judged.. but don’t know maybe I need to give it time

@MrsNotNice I've had urges to stop going, ever since I started. I know it's because it's a hard process and I want to avoid it. Do you feel judged by your therapist? Or is it something internal?

Hi, I posted on here a few weeks ago after an argument with my narcissistic mum and willing enabler dad. To sum up I showed I was agitated that she was totally blanking my daughter Sophie and favouritising my son, she started on me accusing me of going into a mood and then said 'what a daughter you've been to us'. My dad usually texts every day to ask how the kids are but after that day he stopped texting as was in a huff. This went on for almost 3 weeks, I never heard from them and even if I contacted them I'd only he huffed at and my character torn apart before it was accepted my mum wasn't to blame and it was all me .

Well it all came to a head on Thursday there. I got a missed call from them and ended with them appearing at my door. The second they got in all hell broke loose and they started shouting at me about a letter that's gone to their house with red writing (student loans asking for an update of details). Every time I even spoke I was being told to 'calm it', I wasn't even shouting! When I eventually snapped my mum said 'what is wrong with you? There's something wrong with you'.

My husband arrived home and had it out with them. He asked them about the huff and they did exactly what I predicted they'd do, played the elderly parents card and said 'she could have text us, we could have been lying there dead for all you knew'. My husband told them to cut it out and admit they were in a huff.

Also, my mum started a full character assassination of me, took zero responsibility for any part of the argument, kept repeating 'she started it' (it was actually her - I showed irritation and then she started), and worse of all, denied point blank she said 'what a daughter you've been to us'!! When my husband (with my dad even agreeing) said about moving on all she could do was say 'not until I'm believed that I didn't say that, it's important I'm believed'. She even tried to get my husband on side by pointing out continually 'you weren't there'. My dad claimed to not remember (I don't think he does as he's scatty that way). I actually think she genuinely believes she didn't say it and was so manic that night she'd lost all control of what she was saying! In the argument she brought up past arguments including one from 7 years ago! She also told me she'd never forgive or forget this (almost laughable!)

Basically it ended with no resolve as my mum wasn't going to move on without it being 100% all put on me which my husband and I wouldn't tolerate. I used to usually visit them with the kids on a Sunday, the kids still go but I don't. Today my dad came to collect them (I don't drive) and when he walked in he gave me a look like I was a piece of dirt off his shoe.

I am angry but also devastated at it all. Deep down I know she is toxic (my dad no better) and it's for the best but I'm still feeling very low

Frazzled

You all need to stay away from your parents now; let this be your line in the sand. Many adult children of narcissists fall into the trap of believing that somehow their parents will behave better when children come into being; this is not the case at all. They are merely doing a continuation of what was done to you as a child. Do not let these people enter your home any longer nor allow your dad to collect your kids (exposing them to their toxic manipulations is harmful).

It is really not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist.
They were not good parents to you when you were growing up and they have not changed an iota since then. Narcissists and their all too willing enabler/secondary abuser (often in the shape of the father) are also not good examples of grandparent figures. If your H's parents are nice then concentrate on them.

As an aside it may be an idea for you to learn to drive too.

My dad claimed to not remember (I don't think he does as he's scatty that way)

Sorry, FrazzledMummy, but I think he's scatty when it suits. My Dad was just the same. He is never going to back you up. After all, she can peck at his head 24/7 so for the sake of a quiet(ish) life, he will always take her side. Whenever he is forced into a position where he has to lie brazenly in order to save himself the earache, he'll claim he didn't hear or doesn't remember.

Your father is part of the problem, just as mine was.

Distance. Lots and lots of it.

Arrrgghh, Frazzled I'm so sorry they are just batshit and they lie through their fucking teeth and they put on whatever act will get them what they want🙄
You just know that the minute you lose your temper and give them what for they turn on the sweet little persecuted old person performance, honestly I think it's like a switch has been flipped when they get to a certain age and it's 'go for what I want at all costs'🙄

I see this with my father, I've seen him trying to to take on the guise of a little boy trying to elicit my maternal instincts whilst at the same time maintaining 'I'm your father' and doggedly sticking to his principles and his agenda.
he wants to simultaneously be elder statesman and helpless old man or toggle between the two roles as it suits him 🙄
Gives me the freaking heebie-jeebies 😳

Twentymice
Talk about that with your therapist, say exactly what you’ve said here - I feel judged, I feel tense, I want to avoid this pain. You have got a lot to work with there. If your therapist is good they’ll really explore that with you.

Also try to decompress after a session, give yourself a breathing space, do something nice, a new book, some flowers, some sweets, whatever feels like pleasure to you.

Therapy is often referred to as the ‘work’. It’s hard. But you can do it, you’ve done hard things already. 💐