But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@SingingLily We didn't really have proper food for clothing. I was bullied at school because I used to smell and wear dirty clothes. I used to eat paper on the way home as I was so hungry. Sounds really weird to write down. I worked from an early age, every weekend to buy clothes and shoes. She made me feel like a parasite if I asked her for anything, so I didn't.

When I left home at 18 to go to university, she expected me to call her even though I didn't have a phone (this was before mobiles) so I'd have to go out in all weathers to the phone box. She didn't give me any money to support me and didn't visit me once. I remember once having a pound and not knowing what to do as I needed to eat but also needed to wash my hair. It never occured to me to ask my mum for money.

Thanks @SingingLily

It's hard because my sister is a carbon copy of our mother and so I don't see my nephews. They're getting to the age where she will begin to resent them although maybe because they are boys it will be different.

Also, friends with kids sort of assume I don't like or am not interested in children so wouldn't bring them to see me.

One friend actually said to me that he never mentioned his children in front of me because he thought I would have a thing about people who had children and that it wasn't cool.

It's really hard to say I love children but I just never wanted one of my own.

@parmesan189 Same at university. I was expected to still phone them and drag myself back to see them.

When my mother put me on the train to go to university she didn't say good luck or have a wonderful time. She just said in her very best how dare you voice "Don't forget everything your father and I taught you".

Even now I can feel myself sitting on that train for 5 hours trying not to burst out crying in front of a whole load of strangers.

I was a little girl who they just sent out into the big world with no social skills and nobody to turn to if I needed some help. No wonder I went off the rails for the next 20 years.

yellowlemon
Hmm that rang a bell about pretending she was a queen and living in a filthy house. One of my mother's neighbours told me my mother said she had been brought up like a princess and wasn't going to change. She was also above walking anywhere like going to the shops for food which were about 200 yards away. However going to town to buy clothes for herself, a very different matter.
Interesting what you say about your father saying you smelled ripe. My father would also belittle me in front of my mother as if to ingratiate himself with her. He spent his life trying to please her and rarely did.

Ohh, Parmesan. You've had a desperate childhood and had to navigate your own way through it and out of it, alone. It makes you resilient, but it's a hard-won resilience. I hope that there is something in your life and in your day, every day, to be happy about or to be cheered by, because you deserve all the good luck in the world. You are among friends here, you know that, don't you? Sending you another virtual hug and 💐

@angstinabaggyjumper Interesting what your mother's neighbour said.

I always wondered if my mother had been neglected or had some trauma happen to her. But I actually think she was totally spoilt and indulged as a child. She got stuck playing with dolls and having play tea parties without understanding that adulting meant you actually have to do some work to get those nice things. And it's not pretend anymore.

She and my sister (again totally indulged) are the laziest people I know.

Yes, I’m reading all your words and just feeling sad for those children, it’s so awful to think about how lonely you must have felt.

Even now I can feel myself sitting on that train for 5 hours trying not to burst out crying in front of a whole load of strangers.

And a virtual hug and 💐 for you, Yellowlemon.

My DSis couldn't wait to get away and go to university. She told me not so long ago (when I was furious with Dad for something unforgivable that he'd said to her when she was 14) that she'd long since become hardened to it all and just wanted to be free of them. She had no social skills either - neither did I - and we talked about how we'd had to learn the hard way. Part of the reason why she gets so anxious about her little girls is that she wants them to be socially confident in a way that we never were, and were discouraged from being, so that they will escape the odd looks that we got when we tried to fit in.

Your poor nephews. This stuff reverberates through the generations unless we make a conscious effort to stop it in its tracks.

And next time anyone is tempted to feel sorry for their parents because they probably had a crappy upbringing, remember this. So did you. They chose to take their anger about their childhoods out on you, at a time when you were a vulnerable and defenceless child. You chose not to take it out on anybody, apart from your own self.

It's a choice. It's always a choice.

Something a bit odd happened a few years ago which I’m not sure if is connected to anything but would be good if anyone could shed any light on it.

I was at my mum’s house as was my sister and her 2 children (my nephews) at that time aged about 3 and a 6 month baby.

My sister had left the baby playing on a mat in the living room. I was also in there and the rest of the family were elsewhere.

Anyway, elder son walked into the room and purposely went up to the baby and kicked him in the head. It wasn’t provoked. He walked into the room just to do that and didn’t know I was in the room.

Of course baby started screaming and elder son also started crying when he released I had seen him do it.

No sign of my mother or sister until I called out to them and said xxx has just kicked yyy in the head.

My sister eventually came into the room and just said to elder son “now we mustn’t do things like that, they’re not nice’.

I was gobsmacked. I mean I’m not a parent but I saw all sorts of red flags in the whole situation.

@SingingLily

And next time anyone is tempted to feel sorry for their parents because they probably had a crappy upbringing, remember this. So did you. They chose to take their anger about their childhoods out on you, at a time when you were a vulnerable and defenceless child. You chose not to take it out on anybody, apart from your own self.

So, so true. And not something I've not really thought about before.

My sister eventually came into the room and just said to elder son “now we mustn’t do things like that, they’re not nice’.

I'm speechless, Yellowlemon.

The only thing I can think is that if your sister believes herself to be the perfect mother of perfect children, such a thing could not possibly have happened - even though you were there and you saw it - so she had to gloss over it and minimise it. Far less painful to her than facing up to the truth.

That poor baby. In fact, those poor children.

Thanks - I never looked at it that way.

And yes, those poor kids. It's one of the things I know that me going NC is going to escalate. My mother will need a new scapegoat and I know one of those kids will have to be it. I expect the elder one - he's about 6 now so just the right age.

Sorry me again. But the scales have really fallen off and I keep remembering things which I now see in a very different light.

I’ve got a tiny scar on my face. It’s not disfiguring and hardly noticeable but the funny thing is I’ve always known how I got it. I don’t remember having to ask.

Because my mother would take great delight in telling anyone who listened that I fell off a chair when I was a baby and banged my face on a table leg. When they took me to hospital a social worker questioned her and my father for hours about how I got it which she found absolutely disgusting.

I’m not even going to go there about whether it was really an accident or not. Or indeed whether a social worker did really question her. But assuming she was telling the truth I’ve just realised why she told that story.

1. It was to make her the centre of attention about something that happened to me.
2. It was a way of reinforcing her perfect mother facade. How dare someone question her parenting. Particularly when they were wrong.
3. This is a bit tenuous, but it may have also been a way of bringing attention to the scar that I could potentially have found distressing.

She really is text book isn’t she.

@yellowlemon I think my mother did it as a power thing and because she was incredibly tight. She didn't want to spend the money on the phone. And yes, I had to spend however much it was on train journeys to get home as she wouldn't visit me. I'm sorry to hear yours were the same.

@SingingLily Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. It wasn't until I got older, to the age where I could have children myself and looked back, that I saw how bad her behaviour was. When you're brought up like that, you don't know any different. I can't imagine treating my child like that.

@parmesan189, I'm so sorry for all you've been through. :( I'm glad you've found Stately Homes.

"I was left in bed for three days as I was concussed and couldn't sit up without feeling faint. On the third day she took me to the hospital and I had a broken collarbone."

This is just terrible. That lack of concern for you, lack of insight into your experience, your importance! As you say, you could have died! :( I'm disgusted with your mother's behaviour. I'm so glad your experience of hospital was positive, and they let you stay for another night - but how heartbreaking that you were ever in this situation. That kind of callous abandonment leaves deep deep wounds. :(

"She lies to maintain face in front of others. That's very important to her. I tore a ligament and couldn't walk for a long time and my aunt called..."

My mother mostly lies for that reason too, I think. She also lies to be the centre of attention, the most deserving of sympathy and fuss, the funniest, the best, the most desirable, etc. etc.... And to fuck with people's head's/gaslight them (which is again about maintaining a particular image of herself). She lies for control. Big lies, small lies, clearly calculated evil lies, and bizarre, pointless lies that seem to just slip out of her mouth unbidden.

She'll contradict herself, but she'll never EVER admit to having lied. She is not a liar, don't you know. She abhors lies. She ALWAYS keeps her promises!

Unbeknownst to me at the time, when I was really ill with PTSD and unable to cope with school, life, anything - my uncle and aunt had been asking after me. Of course mother wouldn't want to tell them "oh, actually, since you ask, that man I was intending to be my third husband... well he was raping my daughter all along! Whoops!!"... so instead she kept telling them I had a urinary tract infection that wouldn't go away.

I was the same regarding not telling her about injuries etc as there was no point. I remember once she slammed my sister's finger in the car door and when my sister screamed, she told her not to make a fuss.

This too! :( Near constant invalidation of any kind of pain, ESPECIALLY if she'd been the one to inflict it.
"It did not hurt, don't be so ridiculous"

"Oh, here come the dramatics...!"

"You're such a prima donna!"
"Get over yourself!"

When my appendix burst, NHS Direct (luckily) sent an ambulance "because it sounds like appendicitis". Mother spent the whole trip to hospital flirting with the paramedics, and joking with them about how silly it was of them to send an ambulance, it's just constipation, probably needs a good fart, hahaha, what a fuss over nothing, what a waste of your time, I'm so sorry about this! [giggle giggle, flutters eyelashes] and so on. :(

"I never bothered arguing with mine as she was violent. She'd slap me round the face if I argued with her. For a long time, into adulthood, I never bothered arguing back as she's still very aggressive. She'll come over to you and lean in your face shouting at you. The childhood fear kicks in. There's no point arguing with her as she'll never back down and will get more and more aggressive."

I'm so sorry. Mine was prone to violent outbursts too. That look of apoplectic rage and hatred on her face will be with me forever I think. :( Terrifying losses of control on her part. Horrendous experiences. Far too much time spent sitting against my door as hard as I could, in tears, pleading to just be left alone, please!, with her trying to barge and scream her way through to get to me. :(

Of course, if you ask her, she'll tell you most emphatically that of course she NEVER hit her children! She would NEVER, EVER do that!! [shocked] Or depending on her mood and context, she may say "I have hit them, yes, but they hit me first!!" (untrue, in case it isn't obvious! :p)

The 'narcissist's prayer' fits my mother so well. I couldn't believe it when I first found it:

"That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did...
You deserved it."

@parmesan189 Yeah - my mother was incredibly tight too. Except when it came to frittering away money on rubbish. Her house is filled with crap. Drawers and cupboards full of bed linen, table linen, towels, place mats, tea sets, glassware, ornaments, sewing stuff, birthday and Christmas cards. She never spent money on anything nice. But could clear a charity shop of all its junk in seconds.

Oh and jigsaw puzzles. She was obsessed with jigsaw puzzles. Always had one on the go on some contraption she'd made. But woe betide anyone who tried to help her or tried to move it so you had space to do homework or eat dinner or something.

She's mad.

Bodysays
(((hug)))
Your mother was horrific I'm so sorry 😔
Right now I wish I could give her a good hiding on your behalf 😠.... Not that violence is ever justified or useful but by god if anyone deserved it she did

Yellow I'm not sure that your third point even is tenuous... The territory over which women compete is so often that of looks and the scenario of the mother who is threatened by her daughter's attractiveness (mirror mirror on the wall) is pretty well known, there's her motive for wanting to draw attention to anything that might have blighted your face!

@Ulterego It really is fascinating. I've read before that narc mothers can be obsessed with their daughter's hair. Mine certainly was.

It was either too long or too short, too straight or too curly, not highlighted enough or highlighted too much, too dry or too greasy, Always something wrong.

What's dawned on me today is that psychologists and doctors pretty much say that NPDs are impossible to study. And yet here we are. In a funny way we 'know' them better than anyone. I wonder if those doctors have ever tried talking to us?

Oh and btw @Ulterego I love your feisty attitude. I don't condone violence either but yours has such a power and strength behind it (I've read lots of your old posts).

Hair oh yes Yellow hair, mine was uber controlling not to mention super weird when it came to hair
and thank you 😊 although I must admit there have been a few times lately when my feistiness has nearly landed me on my arse, picking fights with people is not a clever thing to do especially when you're a small middle aged woman🙈

Ulterego thank you so much for that, and
especially for the (((hug))). Thank you.

Arghhhh had forgotten the hair! I had to have my hair permed from about the age of five!