But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
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November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I don't want to hog

Jamon, you're not hogging. I wrote screeds when I first came on here because I needed to. It really helped. You write as much or as little as you want. It's OK, truly. Sometimes it's only when you write it down that you can start to piece things together properly and find clarity. This is a safe place for you.

Jamonfirst I second that - nobody here will think you're hogging, we've all been there or are still there but it does help just to get it all down and get some feed back but mainly then to be able to re-read what you've written. It helps. Promise. Not like a quick fix, but a long road to a new destination where its more peaceful.

Had a bit of a wobble tonight. Went out for a lovely dinner with a few friends and of course the talk got to Christmas. And they were all so excited about it and doing the family thing.

There was the inevitable ‘mum can be a nightmare wanting to help but once she’s pulled a cracker it’s really all ok’ or ‘dad and brother have had a bit of a fall out so not sure about that but it will be fine, they’re always falling out but they just need to talk to each other’ or ‘everyone has a fucked up family but we all love each other really’.

And you have to sit there with a stupid Cheshire Cat grin on your face hiding your dirty little secret and praying that they won’t ask you a direct question because what are you supposed to say?

‘Well I won’t be spending Christmas with my mother because she has relentlessly emotionally abused me for over 40 years and no I can’t just talk to her because how can you have a conversation with someone who doesn’t acknowledge anyone else’s feelings?’

Jamon, since I finally saw my father's true colours I have felt such tremendous boiling rage I have been apoplectic, I felt like a feral hissing demon
Of course you feel angry, in a way it's good because it tells you that you know you are worth standing up for and defending, you are rightly furious on your behalf
It's a hard process to go through but you can have a life on your terms, a life lived for yourself and for your benefit

Hi Jamonfirst, it's not just you. Similar with me.

I know you're describing your role in her eyes here
I'm the scapegoat i only exist to have bad moods taken out on me, have vengeful, petty little games played with me to make her feel bettrr and act as an anger release valve.
and it's an important and horrific realisatison to go through - anger is appropriate!

but I just wanted to say I hope you can remind yourself that this isn't actually your role. It's not what you exist for. You are a whole, separate, unique, intrinsically worthwhile human being!

You always deserved to be loved, nurtured, protected, encouraged, seen.

It is outrageous that your mother used you so. No child should be anyone's 'anger release valve'!! (I was my mother's, too) Be aware to notice and fight any internalisation of that abuse, be careful not to turn your anger inward automatically, be sure to remind yourself that it wasn't your fault..

Remember you deserve kind treatment, so resolve to treat yourself kindly, at all times. Nurture yourself the way you ought to have been nurtured all along. It's a painful, lengthy process, but it's revolutionary.

We're all different, but for me that kind of eating is a displacement activity, dissociative. Distraction from the feelings, the memories. There's the chewing (I'm a chewer), texture, potentially taste,
the eventual feeling of too-fullness as a contrast to the chasm of emptiness situated at the centre of being unloved, unseen, and used like that as a little one and beyond.

Mechanically stuffing my face sort of puts those painful/difficult feelings and the reliving/recovering of memories and things at a distance from myself, at the time. Zones me out. But of course any relief is temporary, and hollow really because processing and feeling is what we need to be doing, and of course overeating/bingeing isn't good for us!

I wonder whether there could be an element of self-harm bubbling underneath there for you, too? There has been for me, in so many of my coping mechanisms / displacement activities / previous life choices.

One of my most useful phrases to repeat of late has been "There's nothing shit about [my name]!" I need reminding.

Hope I've not said anything unhelpful here by accident. Wishing you the very best.

Wow thread's moved on, that took me longer than I thought! Will catch up now.

I feel like a fish flapping around on land a bit here. Ludicrously self-consious, but trying! . Thanks everyone for allowing me the opportunity to try, somewhere safe.

@Jamonfirst please don't worry about posting too much. I've only just joined and feel like I'm putting down every thought that pops into my head.

But here is the only space I can speak. Because there is nobody else I know who I can talk to and we need to talk. The old posts on this thread helped me so much. One day in the future your posts will help someone else.

I'm new to this thread though I've lurked for a while. Both my parents and most of my family are pretty bad and I'm estranged from them.

I have a question. My mother doesn't believe anything I say. For example, I'll say that I have a cold and she'll tell me I don't. She doesn't believe things that have happened to me either. I'll tell her about an incident at work and she'll tell me it didn't happen, even though she wasn't there.

Has anyone else experienced this and if so, have you got any idea why they (abusers) do this?

Thanks

Hey @parmesan189 welcome to the thread.

It's a form of gaslighting - making you doubt yourself and your reality to try and weaken you so they can stay in control. There are lots of examples on here, or Google gaslighting and you'll find out in more detail what it is.

Thank you so much for welcoming me to the thread, I'm going through a pretty hard time right now. I am now completely estranged from my whole family and feel really alone and isolated. I've also realised with distance, how badly I've been neglected and I'm feeling so sad for that little girl who didn't get her needs met.

RE the gaslighting. I thought gaslighting was slightly different and maybe this is an example of narcissistic enmeshment, where the PD parent sees the child as an extension and since they don't have a cold, for example, the child can't have one either. Does that make sense?

It seems like very, very strange behaviour to me. I'd never tell someone that something they had experienced, that I hadn't witnessed didn't happen. It seems like such a weird thing to do.

I'm the family scapegoat btw, so hi to all the other scapegoats here.

I've also realised with distance, how badly I've been neglected and I'm feeling so sad for that little girl who didn't get her needs met.

Oh bless you. That's just how I feel. I get a real visceral reaction when I see little girls, particularly awkward little girls. I just want to scoop them up and give them a love. But I think it's me I'm trying to love.

And yes - it could be narcissistic enmeshment. None of us our experts on here but having our feelings validated and believed are so important.

One thing that's started to help me and it may not be the same for you is that I have started to reframe what happened to me as abuse rather than neglect ie it was an active decision that they did rather than something passive that just so happened to me.

The feeling of isolation is normal. But this is an amazing place with a lot of very supportive people. Please keep posting. Nobody will judge you. And somebody will always be listening.

Thank you for being so kind. I do see it as abuse, don't worry. I'm currently following a thread about a woman who dismissed her upset daughter and I'm reading the responses from mothers about how they would do anything for their children and how their mothers would too.

My mother wouldn't cross the road for me, never mind take a flight to comfort me. It just goes to show how much I missed out on as I never had any comfort or support from my mother and I'd never contact her in an emergency. She always takes the side of the person I'm having the problem with. For example, my ex cheated on me and gave me several STDs, I had to have HIV tests and she wouldn't hear a bad word against him.

Re the enmeshment/gaslighting thing, I'm just trying to make sense of it. I'm wondering what is wrong with a person for them to do that as it's such strange behaviour. My sister does it as well. I'll tell her about something at work and she'll tell me it didn't happen. She does gaslight as well and spins things. She's deep in denial though.

Just to explain the active re passive thing. It's making me realise that it was their fault rather than mine.

I'm not sure we can ever make sense of it. I've recently found out that NPDs rarely get diagnosed. So if experts can't do it why should we be expected to?

At the moment I'm going with the theory that my mother got stuck as a 6 year old because she was indulged. It makes a lot of sense. It may not be the right answer but it's helping me take away the blame from myself.

You were blaming yourself for your own neglect as a child? Oh, that's terrible, I'm so sorry to hear that. I'm so glad for you that you are able to see now, that you were abused (I can only guess as I don't know details) and that none of it was your fault.

I really 'get' that at the moment. Although I firmly place the blame for my parents being abusive, with them. I'm wondering why I'm alone. What is wrong with me and I'm trying to work through at as abuse is very shame based. They make you feel as though there is something very wrong with you, especially if you are the scapegoat.

My mother often does this too parmesan189. Does yours also make stuff up? As a child I remember theorising that in my mother's case it was because of all the lies she told - that she just assumed I was doing the same as she was, so was constantly trying to catch me out. (I recall I put that to her once, when I was about 12, it did not go down well.)

It could be an unconscious, entirely reflexive defense mechanism of anyone who has a deep-seated need for control... It could be a highly deliberate, calculated strand in an impenetrable web of gaslighting, or just an arseholeish kick for no reason other than to put the boot in...

Always, it's adversarial. It's I'm right, you're wrong. I know, you don't. It's flatly invalidating, and clearly ridiculous. Being on the receiving end of it can be just plain maddening!

I really wonder whether it isn't usually a lot less calculated, in the mind of the abusive person. In many cases I think everything really is all about them, to the extent that if they aren't directly involved in something then it doesn't exist. Or, if it does exist, it certainly doesn't matter!

Also, during these exchanges, are they often not simply thinking about something else ( themselves , duh!) and not giving a shiny shit about what you're saying, or even what they're saying, as long as they maintain that position of Power Over!? Looking back, I've had a lot of long, l o n g g g g g 'conversations', 'arguments', 'discussions', 'debates', and indeed BLAZING rows (with mother primarily and in particular) that were entirely that!!

Hello and welcome by the way. :)

I've done it again! Sorry. I'll catch up. :)

parmesan189,when I wrote the above I'd only seen your OP. I've nowcaught up and read your back-and-forth with yellowlemon.

Like you, I am estranged, isolated, and alone, working through the shame based stuff... My mother thinks the sun shines out of ex-boyfriends' arses too (young men's arses in general, I think), and I shudder recalling the occasions when she's 'assisted' with past emergencies...

I'm waving to you warmly, if awkwardly. :). Strange situation but we have these things in common.

"I've also realised with distance, how badly I've been neglected and I'm feeling so sad for that little girl who didn't get her needs met."

With you 100% on this. :(

The word "boyfriend" makes me feel sick actually! Wish I'd proof-read. It just came out, because the (long since over, thoroughly unhealthy) relationships I'm referring to both originated in my teenage years. YUCK. Sorry, as you were...

Had a bit of a wobble tonight.

I'm afraid there are more wobbles ahead, yellowlemon, partly because of the time of year (all those endless "fa-a-amily" Christmas ads littering up the television schedules as well as friends making plans), but mostly because you are a caring and normal person trying to cope with a decidedly un-normal family set-up. It's hard, no two ways about it. Last Christmas was my first NC Christmas.

There's nothing to stop you making Christmas plans of your own - nice ones, happy ones, in which you and your family finally get to enjoy the day on your terms without having to make a million unwelcome adjustments to suit your mother.

In the meantime, try to think of the wobbles as a good thing. I know that sounds counterintuitive but they are a healthy reaction. They are feelings and emotions, something you were always expected to squash down and put to one side for your her benefit. 💐

I have a small or large wobble pretty much daily. It’s part of the territory I think. But compared to all the headspace I used to give them, feeling upset, the dread of seeing and speaking to them, the emotional downs afterwards, it’s a different place altogether.

where the PD parent sees the child as an extension and since they don't have a cold, for example, the child can't have one either. Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense to me, Parmesan189. My mother has always been coldly dismissive of anything outside her own personal experience. She gaslights too, but that's about trying to make those around her accept her version of whatever passes for truth in her head, even though it means accepting the moon is made of green cheese just to avoid another pointless argument. No, this is different.

If M is not cold, no one around her can possibly be cold either, even if there are icicles hanging off their noses. It's that complete lack of empathy at work. And even if they point to the evidence, it's not enough. They're making it up, being over-sensitive, making a drama out of nothing.

I am so sorry you feel so alone right now and that your family did this to you. You deserved better. From my earliest days as a child, I knew it was pointless running to my mother for comfort when I was upset or had hurt my knee. She didn't do hugs or kind words. I'm guessing yours was the same. I'm sending you a virtual hug right now. 💐

Wish I'd proof-read.

Nooo, BodySaysN0, no need! This is a safe place. No judgement here. It's far far better that you get your thoughts and feelings out on here than bottle them up. Anyway, you express yourself so honestly and clearly that it helps me to see it through your eyes. And that's good.

Oh, my mum used to do the "if I'm cold everyone is cold" thing as well. She would get genuinely angry if you kept insisting you were warm, as if you were taking the piss. She used to make me wear these scratchy woolen hats that somebody at the bingo made - something like the abomination in the picture, but the woman at the bingo was a dab hand with the design and had adapted it to heads of all sizes, not just toddlers - I got papped with one of them when I was just about to leave primary school, so 11 years old. Can you imagine? If you were to come with me to my old street I could show you precisely how far down the street you had to get not to be visible to our front window. Every morning I would belt down the road to that point and then hoick the thing off and stash it in the very bottom of my schoolbag. My dad would sometimes assist in the careless washing of such treasures, so they would shrink and be unwearable. Tiny acts of resistance.