But we took you to Stately Homes" October 2019 onwards thread

[toomuchtooold]

It's October 2019, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
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Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018
November 2018-May 2019
May-August 2019
August-October 2019
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Jinglebells10 I think the plan is that @SingingLily will put the Christmas thread on Off The Beaten Track and the regular one will carry on in Relationships at the same time. We can stick a link to the Christmas one in the main body though so that regulars find it.

But We Took You to Santa's Grotto (Stately Homes Christmas Edition)

😂Perfect, Toomuchtooold and Jinglebells!

Plus link on here. Launching later today...

Excited for this

Morning, Chocolatematchstix. You sound like a fellow survivor - welcome to the thread.

Welcome jamon!

I feel the same lemon - I actually had quite a privileged upbringing and so feel somewhat uncomfortable complaining about it. But having read through this thread I’ve come to realize that it was far from normal and that on an emotional level my mother was neglectful at best. I think my mother realised she was in the wrong marriage and wallowed so much in her own misery that she didn’t have the capacity to care for me in the emotional sense. On a material level I had everything a child could wish for though.

I have a growler today - a text from my mother wishing my child happy birthday. I’m going to go and delete it now without opening it and will take pleasure in the fact she will likely see it has not been read. Fortunately she doesn’t seem to have sent any presents. Perhaps she is waiting for Christmas for the ostentatious gift parade.

@chloechloe You'd swap all number of material things for a kiss and a cuddle.

Even the last thing my mother will probably ever say to me "Your behaviour was so bad your father though about cutting you out of his will" - she thought money (and quite a lot of money) would make me change my mind.

Luckily my mother never bothered working out texts, FaceTime, Skype, WhatsApp etc. She could just about email although every time she sent one there was a huge drama about how Google didn't work.

Although I wouldn't be surprised if she turns into a communications tech guru in the coming weeks.

For those of you who are getting therapy, would you mind telling me what kind of therapy you’re doing?

I started therapy a few months ago, but recently all my therapist wants to do is Emotional Freedom Technique, a.k.a. as tapping. I’m just not sure I find that all that helpful. In fact, my inner cynic is actively rebelling against it 😂

I feel that what I need is just to have an opportunity to talk through what happened and how it affects me now. Does anyone know if that kind of therapy still exists?! Or does it only exist in American tv series?

Because of where I live, my choice of therapists is unfortunately very limited

Special thread launched. After mulling it over with wiser heads, I've put it in 30 Days Only because some of the stories might be quite outing, but it means that in the run-up to Christmas, we can share those times when we just didn't know whether to laugh or cry, before the thread disappears altogether.

But We Took You to Santa's Grotto (the Stately Homes Christmas Edition)
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/thirtydayss_only/3749297-but-we-took-you-to-santa-s-grotto-the-stately-homes-christmas-edition

Hi @Crazzzycat if you look at the BACP website there’s a good explanation under the heading ‘Thinking About Therapy’ there’s a topic ‘Types of Therapy’

There’s also a directory of registered therapists you might find helpful.

@Crazzzycat I am having psychoanalytical therapy. We talk a lot about past events, howI felt them, how I feel now etc. I do a lot of talking and she asks me questions or makes suggestions about various things. That sound like what you are after? She hasn't got a chaise longe for me to recline on though, sadly 😂

Following on from the restaurant related tales yesterday...

My F developed a nervous stomach / IBS kind of thing shortly after my parents got married but it only happened when he ate out somewhere he wasn’t familiar with. They were the kind of people who you would imagine would eat out, living abroad at the time and my F working for a political institution (trying not to be too outing!), and my M remembers a friend / colleague of his saying to them when it came up in conversation, “For goodness sake man, you have to sort that out so you can take your wife out for a meal”. But he didn’t sort it out and so they didn’t eat out from that point on. I have over the past few years booked restaurants for us to eat out when he and his partner have visited (thinking sod him, there’s 5 other people who might like to eat out). Inevitably my choice would be too posh/expensive, not posh enough, or otherwise disappointing, and I’d end up apologising. But my overriding memory, apart from him disappearing to the toilet every few minutes, is of him twisting in his chair every few minutes to glare at people having fun and laughing (usually when a group of women, because I think perhaps he wouldn’t have had the guts if it included a man who might actually stand up to him) and make sarcastic comments in his snooty, posh voice about how some of us might like to enjoy our meal in peace. And I was just thinking how I wouldn’t ever have put up with this behaviour from my children – we don’t eat out that often but have enough from a very early age that they know to sit straight, facing forward, and not stare (gape open mouthed in the case of DD1 when she was little!) at other people, let alone make comments that they might hear. So why did he think it was okay? And then it occurred to me that no one ever corrected him. Why did no one tell HIM off for this rude behaviour? Why didn’t his M tell him it was rude? Why didn’t my M tell him it was rude? Or his current partner? Why didn’t I tell him it was rude? I would sit there and smile at him as if I agreed, thinking ‘you complete kn*b’. How did this man, who wears white socks with sandals, make us all feel like he was so bloody superior that he could behave in a way that all of us knew wasn’t right in a public place, and we were somehow unable to just tell him to stop it?

I read something the other day by a clearly now very together man who’d gone NC with his narc M, until his F was ill so he was back in touch, and he said that now he could laugh at her, that he actually saw her as a comic character. She had asked him why he was laughing, and he said “because you’re funny”. And I thought that’s where we need to get to, isn’t it? To be able to react to them as the childish, emotionally unintelligent, RIDICULOUS people that they really are. And stop letting them force us back into the role of scared child with them as the superior parent who we feel we can't disagree with because its not allowed. We are adults, and we are emotionally mature, intelligent adults at that. Sometimes with a fantastic (all be it black) sense of humour.

I read the beef in gravy thread. Poor woman. Quite aside from the back story that eventually came out, I still can't believe that people were giving her proper grief for not serving more than one meat on Christmas Day as if that was the issue. Really?!?!

My F developed a nervous stomach / IBS kind of thing shortly after my parents got married but it only happened when he ate out somewhere he wasn’t familiar with.

In other words, his anxiety went straight to his stomach because new restaurant = leaving his carefully tailored comfort zone where he might not understand the menu or know which fork to use and other people might notice because, naturally, all eyes would be on him. Instead of on their own plates or their own dining companions.

It's a burden, being special.

Freshstart, I agree we need to see these people for who they really are and treat them accordingly.
Now that we are adults we don't have to look up to them, instead we should look them straight in the eye and see them for who they really are

@FreshStart01 I'm dying with laughter at that especially your detail about socks and sandals because it is all so bloody ridiculous. It's the only attention they deserve - being roundly laughed at.

And so true - they think they are superior but they are just so rude to everyone

I remember my mother saying to someone on a supermarket checkout who had had the audacity to say 'cheers' to her instead of 'thank you' in her very best 'how dare you' voice 'I am not having a drink with you'.

How could she not see that this young man had been the polite one and she had been the rude one.

It really is a complete lack of empathy.

I think a turning point for me was when he made under his breath (but audible) comments about the vicar in MY local church DURING the service about his country bumpkin accent and presumably some gramatical error he'd made (both of which my F would consider a sign of lack of intellect and class). Not that it would have been any less rude in a different church, but I felt real anger as if it was more personal, like making fun of people in my life, putting down my chosen lifestyle.

To add also that we're not really church goers and so would have been at church for something in particular that my DDs would have had a part in, like Remembrance Sunday or an end of term Christmas service. Not that it really matters but I wasn't exactly forcing him to go to church for the sake of it, it was to do with his GCs. I probably thought that might be a nice thing for him to see and be part of as he doesn't live close by. Silly me.

My mother was a really stickler for speaking properly. It took me many years to realise she never actually listened to a word I said as a child, She was just waiting for me to drop a t or say 'v' instead of 'th' which she would pounce on.

The ironic things is that I can't say my 'r's properly. I put my teeth into my bottom lip instead of my tongue behind my teeth or something and she never noticed. Or maybe she did ....

Someone only told me last year when I was trying to roll my rs and had no idea why I couldn't do it. I'm not Jonathan Ross bad but have an incredibly soft 'r' or it's just missing altogether.

yellowlemon, that resonates with me. For years my mother would dock 5p from my pocket money every time she 'caught me' dropping a T or an H.

Crazzzycat It does sound like psychoanalytical therapy is more what you're looking for.

I’m just not sure I find that all that helpful. In fact, my inner cynic is actively rebelling against it 😂
I feel that what I need is just to have an opportunity to talk through what happened and how it affects me now.

Have you voiced these thoughts to your therapist at all?

Or pre-empting what you were going to say and finishing your sentences with you even if she was completely wrong. She does that with everyone though. I picked up on that fairly early on and would just stop speaking mid-sentence the second she took over. She never noticed.

It's one of my better habits that she trained me to do. I always make a real effort to listen to people and not interrupt even though it can be quite hard sometimes.

Oh absolutely, never listened to what I was saying, just how I was saying it, then him correcting would throw me and I'd lose track of what I was trying to say making me sound (or rather feel) stupid. So bad for a child's self-esteem. I know you need to teach them, but sometimes just let it slide.

As I’ve got another thread running on another matter and don’t want to muddy the waters but was aware of this thread many years ago.,,
I had an awful childhood with my mum. Dad worked away a lot. Mum was depressed. Older siblings ( who had left home) had a totally different relationship with her. I always thought I was the difficult child although she once told me she walked into the fields in the snow the night I was born and wanted to die.
Well 2 years ago DSIS was doing some research on the family tree and we all did the Ancestry DNA test. Turns out I’m not my fathers daughter and my DBro and DSIS are only my half brother and sister.
Mt DNA Is from a very specific area of Ireland ( my family are completely English.) this explains everything but also leaves me stumped because my parents are dead.
I’m so angry that she made me so insecure that I needed counselling and that the one person I adored more than anyone, my dad, isn’t and I’ve been lied to all these years. I feel like my whole past is a pack of lies and I’m so angry she made me feel guilty for being born.

So many sad stories on here. I don't want to hog but can I just ask, as I've been reading more on here things are coming to the surface more and more. On the one hand thats good because I'm realising that all of the desperate 'notice me, acknowledge me, let me try harder and harder and buy you bigger and better things' just can't make any difference . because I'm the scapegoat i only exist to have bad moods taken out on me, have vengeful, petty little games played with me to make her feel bettrr and act as an anger release valve. On the other hand, im feeung more and more angry in general. In the last year as I've been processing my feelings about my 'd' m, I've put on 4 stones and at times I feel like I am just shovelling crap down my throat like a meth head would mainline. Is this just me? Has anyone else had anything similar? I just feel so out of control with it.

Hi @Jamonfirst you’re so used to absorbing the damage with no outlet that you’re literally eating your feelings. Can you start writing it all down or finding someone to talk to?

I’m so sorry this is happening, you didn’t deserve it and you certainly didn’t cause it. Keep talking.

DowntonTrout, you must feel as though your whole world has been kicked away from under you. We go through life relying on core beliefs to help guide us on our way and to suddenly find that one of those core beliefs was, in fact, a lie throws a major wobble through everything we feel and believed.

that the one person I adored more than anyone, my dad, isn’t and I’ve been lied to all these years

He was your Dad, Downton. He may not have been your biological father - and it's terrible that you've only found this out now - but the fact is that he was your Dad in every way that counted. He loved you, cared for you, comforted you when you were upset or ill, taught you, took pride in you and your achievements. He was your Dad. It is quite possible that he didn't know otherwise. It's also possible that he might have known but decided that you were too precious to him and being your Dad was far more important than a tiny biological truth. Either way, the love he felt for you, and the love you still feel for him, is real. You didn't imagine it. Don't let your memories of him be sullied by a piece of paper. Your love for your Dad is bigger and stronger than that.