"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Yeah I'm hoping she gets back to me soon. It feels like now I've made that decision I really need to talk

Yeah I'm hoping she gets back to me soon. It feels like now I've made that decision I really need to talk

Bumping because I recommended this to someone off mumsnet.

Hello and love to all x

Bumping for Ampersand.

Winningit, just to echo PP, therapy sessions are usually around £50-60.

@toomuchevidence im a bit behind on the thread but i am 18 m NC with inlaws, i too try to leave it to him to deal with them, it is so hard and i feel so angry and defensive on his behalf. I am cross that we and specifically me are painted as the problem. She called me a wicked snake and in my weaker moments i ruminate and think is she right.

However after a wedding last yr enabling DFIL phoned with a seven point list of complaints such as not paying DMIL enough attention, i know this is bonkers and sheet narcissism.

Ithings that have helped us is me biting my tongue and not going into rants about them, trying not to analyse their behaviour- not worth my headspace so still working on this. Expect nothing from them eg phonecalls, visits, help in anyway.

I feel very defensive of him but i have to admit a small part of my love for him died when he has failed to defend me repeatedly, taught to avoid any conflict by volatile mother.

I hope it gets easier and we all support each other x

Another flying monkey text from my dB and another from my dad today. I I don't understand how these people can be so willingly drafted in to do my mother's bidding and yet do utterly disinterested in what actually happened! Surely if you care enough to get involved and it's all 'we love you and we miss you' you'd care enough to actually listen to my side of things?! Either they think I'm stupid or they're the stupid ones.

I don't understand how these people can be so willingly drafted in to do my mother's bidding and yet do utterly disinterested in what actually happened!

With my ones, they usually just wanted the crazy one to leave them alone so they needed to get us (me/DH, both sets of parents are dysfunctional) to go back in and take our role in being the scapegoat/talking them off the edge. You're all supposed to tie yourself in knots to keep the crazy one sweet, while pretending that you don't treat them any different to anyone else.

user,

Below is a good description of flying monkeys:-

narcissistschild.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/the-flying-monkeys-in-your-life.html

I would now block these flying monkeys from your life; they are purely acting in their own self interest and certainly not in yours.

Blimey, that link is absolutely spot on. I can't believe how formulaic this kind of emotional abuse is. My brother very rarely contacts me from one year to the next. We were close when we were very little, because it was my role to protect him from my parents' violence and dysfunctional relationship. The older we both got, it was like a shutter came down. After my dcs were born he did the doting uncle thing once in a blue moon. He loved them so much, but was apparently to busy to see them ever. And now he's a FM.

toomuch in a way, if the FMs came to me saying the NM was driving them crazy and would I please speak to her, at least I'd respect them a little for levelling with me. It's the false pretences that get my goat: db's fiance apparently having a business meeting in my little one-horse town, (at the weekend!) and could they please drop in. I mean how stupid do they think I am? It's actually really insulting.

Also, I sent my brother a factual reply, restating my reasons for NC, how much she had hurt my dcs, and how I had to protect them. I know now this was a mistake and won't be doing it again. Having said that, when he didn't reply I was starting to blame myself for being 'bad with people', driving him away etc (all said in my head in my mother's voice, naturally). That link has given me a different perspective: perhaps my text gave him all the information he needed to gather, so he didn't need to ask further questions. Perhaps my strong boundaries were enough to put him off. If he really wanted to be a part of our lives, he wouldn't have left it years and then only got in contact after I threatened my mother with the police. He's very good at being the jolly uncle for a few hours every couple of years but it doesn't mean he gives a shit.

hi all

could i ask toomuchtooold and seriousstevewhether they have/are going to set up a private forum/website for more therapeutic work please ?

I've come to the point where I need to get some input as to where to go now. I almost seem to have a running commentary in my head now about all of this and I need to work out where to go with things. I had a conversation [ listened to] my DM on Friday and I now realize that I'm so shit scared and conditioned to be 'good' that I can't tell her I won't want visit her in the foreseeable future. It's like someone has hold of my tongue ! And what to do with the rest of the family ? - especially as I now see how many of her behaviours some of them have internalized. It's so painful. i'm afraid of just reacting, not reasoning. It's pointless talking to her anyway. She will just deny/play the drama llama /make [really unbelievable] excuses. The last time I asked her why she has virtually never been to visit me - or my son - she said it wasn't her fault - she'd been married to 2 very controlling men who wouldn't let her ! And she is scary dominant.

I've started reading Pete Walkers book. It's about me- Je suis Maude !

can I ask about counselling? Do people go weekly [ definitely couldn't afford that] . Monthly ? would people recommend going solo, or in a group? and lastly - Pete Walker seems to say that some of the organisations/websites like Daughters of NMs have free online live groups ? Is this correct ?

Many thanks for any pointers.

Makealist it is happening - Steve's doing all the hard bits and I'm cheerleading from the sides. It's not ready to go just yet but it is definitely happening.

I don't think you can reason with abusive people, I think all you get is like you're on the one side trying to communicate a genuine feeling and find a resolution that will allow you all to get along, and they are on the other side trying to win whatever stupid game it is they have in their head. Like they feel they've won if you cry or you lose your head at them or however they define success - one thing you can be sure of is that their definition of success has sod all to do with genuine communication and it only counts as success to them if they're on top and you're underneath. It would be a painful and pointless exercise even for someone who had never been emotionally abused, but you're doing it with one hand tied behind your back, because this is the person who actually abused you.

I do counselling once a week, it's 45 pounds, but I know a lot of people do fortnightly. I would bloody love to do group therapy, but I'm in Germany and my German's not good enough to be able to express all the touchy-feely stuff.

Hello. We're still muddling through here. It was our youngests' birthday on Sunday. My parents called by with their presents. They didn't come in, just to the door. Dh wanted to just bin the gifts but I'm not at that stage yet. Plus the twins had come to the door so it would have felt a little unfair - we had hoped to be out as mum was just going to drop them in and pick up some bits I'd still got for my grandma. It's mum's next week. Card will go in the post as I can't be doing with the hassle of not sending one. Andbit minimises unwanted contact.

Thank you.That's great. I couldn't afford weekly but I'll start looking around. Even in a small area like this there seem to be loads of counsellors. Or maybe not, as it's a job you can 'do from home'.

I look forward to the website. Thank you very much, the two of you, for doing all this work. I think just to be able to talk about it, in an arena where everyone's on the same trajectory, will be excellent. My DH believes what I am saying - especially as his own DM is very dominant [interesting, that. My ex's was as well ] - but I don't think it's not good if he has to listen too often / is kept awake when I can't sleep etc. He has a different character and can roll with the crap better.

What I meant by reacting specifically is that at the moment I'm tempted to cut ties - and not just with DM, but certain members of my family. But then I'd have to explain / cue the flying monkeys/ point of no return ? Would definitely shake things up. It's a large [ dysfunctional] family. My siblings are truly screwed up , but they've [ and me] done better re their own kids. And those kids probably won't be happy with me either. [ They'll have to listen to the fallout ] . It's amazing how invested people get in not changing, even if that is basically destroying them. As in mental ill health, physical ill health, addiction, isolation, unhappiness etc etc

Question - is the important thing just to look after yourself ? [ confused]

Hello everyone
I haven't posted or even lurked on here for months but need to talk to people who understand !
DM is narc
DF is enabler
Been almost NC for 2 years
To start off with I maintained contact with DCs by DCs phoning them regularly (on loudspeaker) and have carried on sending birthday cards
But not seen them for 2 years and NC for about 6 months
DM has reacted with vitriolic emails and classic gaslighting with no acceptance of any blame on their part (expected I know)
I tried recently to build some bridges but all they care about is seeing the DCs and I know that they Have all ulterior motives for that

What I really want to do right now is just tell them to leave me and my family alone

DCs are five and nine and they (thank goodness) understand the situation on the basis that if people keep using unkind words it's okay to walk away

Please tell me that having 'normal' parents is overrated anyway and my proper family of 4 is all I really need anyway ....

Ps apologies for not having read thru recent threads
I know that there are a lot of people who are in much worse situations than me and almost feel a fraud for posting on the SH thread but this is the only place where I know people will get it

Question - is the important thing just to look after yourself ?

I think once you phrase that question out loud the answer's clear! (In case it's not - yes! You should look after yourself!)

I think as an abused codependent you can find yourself in the situation where you've taken or been given responsibility for managing other people's feelings, when you shouldn't have to. If you fancy, you can read back in the threads to about last September and my role, or rather my "role" in my BIL cutting contact with DH for about 7 years. He was apparently pissed off at me for not keeping up a friendship with his ex-gf. And I felt really guilty about all of this stuff for ages, and then when I started therapy, I thought wait BIL, you're going to hold your relationship with DH to ransom over this? No, I'm not taking responsibility for that. I'm not doing that work. I'll own the decision not to stay in contact with your ex gf who I knew for 6 months, 10 years ago, and you take the responsibility for not staying in contact with your actual brother.

Anyway yes. Look after yourself. Have boundaries, and refuse to spend time with people who don't treat you with kindness. If that blows back onto other members of the family, they can establish their own boundaries. It's all adults, isn't it, there's no little kids involved? So there's no reason at all to put up with bad behaviour.

Somermummy
What I really want to do right now is just tell them to leave me and my family alone

Do it.

Please tell me that having 'normal' parents is overrated anyway and my proper family of 4 is all I really need anyway

I bet having normal parents is great, but ours are all awful, and it's them that would need to change that, there's nothing we can do to change them. Your family of 4 is awesome, it's you breaking the cycle of abuse. Honestly, give yourself a break and block their bloody emails.

I know that there are a lot of people who are in much worse situations than me and almost feel a fraud for posting on the SH thread but this is the only place where I know people will get it

Feeling like a fraud is a sign you were abused. We all say this. I read the thread thinking honestly that my mother was pretty mild compared to some, and yet I talk to my therapist about my childhood and she's gobsmacked the whole time. It's part of the number that they do on us, to convince us that it wasn't that bad or that it happened to everyone. It's bullshit, there's a nice life out there full of people who could never imagine being as horrible to a child as our parents were, and are, to us. And we're bringing our kids up in that fragrant world, because we are (despite everything we went through) bloody awesome people.

(I'm feeling a bit raaar this morning as you can probably tell. Go us!)

Thanks Toomuch

That's JUST what I needed to hear
You're so right !

I should have come on here instead of sending a bloody birthday card to
My dad and thinking that everything could be sodding rosy again

Of course it's not !

The relationship was toxic 2 years ago and last year

Why on earth would there have been some sort of sudden change now ??!!

I think I got carried away because it was spring and got myself into the fresh start mindset

What a load of rubbish !

I had my new start 2 years ago when I walked away from the mind games and the insults

Here's to us SH ers !!!
It's tough sometimes but it's bloomin worth it !!!

Hi everyone. I don't really know where or how to jump in, so I'm sorry for butting in and not responding to previous posts. I've lurked for a while but want to take the leap!

I'm having a difficult time at the moment, I am at the beginning of my process working through what my relationships are with my parents, in my childhood and in adulthood. The sense of guilt as I think these things is almost unbearable. And they are good people, I don't think it is anything too terrible, I think more that I put them on a pedestal and I'm trying to be more real if that makes sense?

I don't feel I can post any details publicly at the moment, but I wish I could. I saw a while ago talk about a new forum - is that happening? (If so whoever is doing it has my thanks and appreciation!).

Does anyone feel sometimes like they're exaggerating things or being unreasonable not getting over it? I've experienced so many of the things written on these threads, from the gaslighting, to the scapegoating, to the constant criticism, to the setting up to fail, to the sibling rivalry, to being a constant disappointment, to being made to feel I can't do the simplest task properly (e.g. drying up!!) but then shouldn't ever ask for help because I should be able to always manage (but should be helping my poor sister). But my siblings don't really recognise any of it/think I'm exaggerating/should get over it etc. It sometimes makes me feel like I'm imagining how I feel. My mother's dead but I still feel she controls how I feel about myself. My father's elderly but I don't have any desire to really look after him because he was always pretty shit to me (my mother's enabler plus always shouting/belittling/criticising in his own right). But I feel guilty because my sisters feel they shouldn't have to do it all. And they are right but I really don't want to help him because he's always been such a selfish bastard. How do I square this circle of guilt when it's my sisters as well as my father that are involved. And it doesn't help that I'm a sahm though about to set up my own business, so only one without job outside the home but also only one with children. Aaaarggghhh.

I'm sorry I'm not really commenting a lot. I do keep coming back to read, but this whole issue is like the sun for me, and I can't seem able to look straight at it for more than a second here and there, and it's very painful and disorientating when I do.

I definitely feel like I'm exaggerating and being unreasonable, Mrdarcy.

On the other hand the penny is starting to drop that some of the stuff that went of for me is not just traumatic but criminal. It's making me feel so dirty. (Literally. I'm showering and bathing like mad!).

Coping from day to day, sort of. By coping I mean I'm staying alive. Luckily haven't had loads of contact with my family very recently.

Hi everyone
I'm sorry to jump on the thread without catching up with where you all are first. I haven't posted here for such a long time but could really do with emptying my head to people who understand. I'm due to have a c-section on Thursday to deliver my second child after 3 mcs. Had a session with my therapist this afternoon which has left me feeling very wobbly.
I have distanced myself from my mother for some time now although my sister keeps trying to get me to meet up with her so she can see my daughter.

So many feelings at the moment that my thoughts are a little disjointed.
In my session today I connected with the fact that i never felt safe as a child and that's why I now fear that something bad is always round the corner. I'm so scared of life.
I'm a 40 year old frightened child that plays at being a grown-up. I'm scared to sleep but scared to be awake at night and I struggle to function as a 'normal' human.
Damn. I had so many things to say at the start of this post but they elude me now.

Somermummy glad to help! It's natural to keep trying with parents, there's something hard wired into us that seeks to have a loving relationship with them. But if they've not changed, and they usually don't, it just another go at being hurt.

shivering welcome . The new forum is definitely happening! We'll announce it on the thread when it's ready to go. I'm really glad that it seems it's going to be something that people will benefit from.

darcy it might be that to acknowledge what you experienced would mean they had to let go of their own idealised version of themselves as nice people with nice parents who all loved each other, they might have to acknowledge that they were complicit in your abuse if e.g. they were invited by your parents to join in mocking you for your so-called deficiencies. Or it might be a lot simpler than that - they might be sick of looking after your dad (who may now be making a right nuisance of himself to them, as his only audience) and basically wanting to guilt you into taking over all his care along with the care of your children while they swan off back to their nice lives and their jobs and they can have a good feeling that their dad is being cared for within the family to boot. Sod that. You don't need to take care of your abusive elderly father. Your sisters don't either. If your father's too frail to live alone he can go into residential care. If they feel that's not acceptable, it's up to them to arrange for other care, and that doesn't mean outsourcing it to you.

prozac are you in therapy? Be careful with yourself. Everything I'm reading about this stuff right now (The Body Remembers by Babette Rothschild, and The Body Keeps The Score by Bessel van der Kolk) suggests that reliving this stuff can be retraumatising.

Tombliboo congratulations, and good luck for Thursday. I can really relate to what you're saying about not feeling safe - I felt like I had no right to seek safety, it's something I'm working on now. Can I just say, I hope you know this, I know that knowing it intellectually and believing it are two different things - but being a mother to one child, having a second after three miscarriages, dealing with all this stuff from your childhood - and being successful in this, as you are, you're accessing help, your life runs itself - makes you more of an adult than a lot of people will ever need to be. Even if it doesn't feel like that.