"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

hi. Again. So many posts, even since this morning. That's why I love this thread. It reaches people who need to be reached and gives them the opportunity to jump in and say something.

I won't namecall [?] everyone above as most of you seem to be saying the same thing. That something that seemed ' ordinary' isn't - or ever was ; that this has had ongoing catastrophic results ; that we shouldn't have the right to put ourselves first. toomuch is correct of course - we've been conditioned not to. FOG - fear , obligation , guilt .I also feel guilty about my elderly DM and the obligation to chip in re support - a woman who has never supported me. so why should we , mrdarcy ? People don't become sweet just because they're old and frail

Please look after yourselves [ flowers]. Support is here !!!

.Must remember not to add spaces or these don't work !

I'm so angry, upset and frustrated.

My brother and his ex, the mother of two of his children, have had a falling out again.

I am supposed to go up to visit them for a week in the summer holidays. My niece, nephew and their mum, who I love like a sister, live over 500 miles away. My brother during his argument with his children's mum decided to bring me into it.

Apparently, even though it was my suggestion, I am only going up because she needs a babysitter. This annoyed her. When I questioned my brother about what the hell he is going on about he told me that I always "suck her arse" and I always defend her even though she always bad mouths me and runs me down. Now she's never done this to me and he's never mentioned it to me before. I don't understand why he's suddenly come out with this now.

My mother has spent all evening shouting at me, and telling me I always cause trouble.. all I've done is want to go up and see my niece and nephew, and their mum.

I can now truly say that I hate my life - even the simple things turn into a mass of frustration and confusion - and I think this incident might just have proved that I really don't have anybody.

Thank you guys for your support. Just being heard helps. And saying the (societally) unacceptable also helps.

I'm not sure I can completely cut everyone off. Makereal I feel your conflict re your mother. It is never easy.

Too much - yes I think there are elements of all of those here. But also a sense of family duty. There is no doubt they have done more care than me. They just think I should do my share. Which makes sense as they are a bit in denial of our upbringing.

The unreality comes I think from the subtlety of my ill treatment , if that helps others. I wasn't beaten on a daily basis or left without food. It was much more subtle. My mother would just follow me round the house criticising me until she made me cry. Would talk about how beautiful x, y and z were. Would consistently compare me unfavourably with friends, family members etc, would stop me whenever I was doing any simple task as I was 'not doing it properly, would argue black is white, just to demonstrate I was wrong. Said things like, no wonder you haven't got any friends (when I had had one of those childhood tiffs with friendship group). Would make me take back clothes I had bought with my own earned money because they didn't suit someone who looked like me (implying that I was not beautiful enough). Would regular mention that I hadn't got a boyfriend when I was a teen but then when I met someone, flirted with him and interfered. Once told my father that I had refused to get her a coffee in a cafe and had just bought for myself, when she had actually told me she didn't want one. Told all her friends and family that I was obnoxious.

None of these things on their own would convince people that she was a horrible person, but collectively they sapped my spirit, ate away at my sense of self, destroyed my confidence. But she could be so charming, so funny, so apparently warm, that no one would ever have believed it. It must have been me.

I just don't know how anyone could do this to their own children. I am so grateful for these threads. It astounds me how many people have experienced the same things. Some of the posts feel like they have been taken from my own life.

Jannerite how awful to drag you into their bitterness and spite, and even worse to blame you for creating a scenario that in fact exists only in their own heads. You can see there is no conspiracy. No taking sides. Just a desire to see people you love.

Is there any way you can feel able to disengage from them and just go anyway?

I hope you find a way to sort out all this bad feeling. You really have done nothing wrong.

Thank you for responding Toomuch. I feel like I'm failing as a mum every day because I get grumpy and irritable and sometimes I catch myself in being just plain horrible. I'm so scared I'm going to end up like my mother. Scared my moods are too unpredictable. I tell her all the time that I love her and apologise constantly for being bossy and grumpy.

I used to maintain contact with my mum mostly out of guilt and still feel guilty about not seeing her now but the effect on me is so negative that I just can't be around her for even a moment. I do find myself questioning whether I've made it all up but my therapist confirms that my childhood was terrible from what I have told her and from the effect it has had on my life. I have no real memory of anything up to age 13 except pieces of disconnected events and random images. According to mum I was a difficult child which I guess, in her head at least, makes my treatment acceptable.

jannerite
Is the same brother whose son you look after every bloody weekend? My god, the bare faced cheek is bloody outrageous. They don't have much sophistication, people like your brother and your mother, their view of the world and their relationships are based on manipulation and exploitation, what they can get out of people. They are utterly confused by people like you and your ex SIL- essentially normal, nice - and so they try to interpret your actions according to their motivations. This is also a nice way of isolating you, so you are more likely to stay at home and keep being your mother's scapegoat and your brother's unpaid nanny.

I wonder if you feel a bit sensitive about this "she's using you" accusation because you've had friends in the past who've used you? You're a codependent trained to respond to your mother's wishes and ignore your own, and to think your own wants and needs are unimportant or shameful. Of course you are more comfortable with friendships where you can make yourself useful to the other person. Does that mean you're vulnerable to being used, yes. Does that mean your SIL is using you? No, but it doesn't actually matter if she was. It's your friendship. It's up to you to judge whether the friendship is worth the effort, and it sounds like you really enjoy spending time with her.

I know you probably know most of this but I thought it bore being spelled out a bit. Go! Just bloody sneak out the door if you have to.

mrdarcy your share in a job you never consented to. I'm just saying!

Tombliboo I've been reading a lot about complex PTSD, I definitely have it, you might have, and one of the things they say is that people with CPTSD and normal PTSD get stressed out much faster by ordinary stressful events as our stress response is basically on all the time. And then when we do get angry, the variety of behavioural options we have (this is my theory) mostly come from our own childhood, so they're often horrible. And then third, because we've been conditioned to believe that our anger is unacceptable and wrong, we feel much, much worse about showing the anger than is normal. A triple whammy.
IDK if this'll help but it's what I do: when I get angry at my kids I think "what would my old primary 6 teacher do?" She was a shouty lady, but a lovely person, really kind. I try and channel her when I'm angry, because her anger was not scary to me, it was all over in seconds, it was sometimes funny ("Smith, if I catch you doing that one more time you'll be leaving this gym hall, and you won't be using the door" as she stared past him to the open window) and she was so confident about being listened to. It helps me. I also read a book called The Angry Book which talks about the importance of not bottling up anger. I found that really helpful. And I wrote a blog post about anger, you might find it interesting?

Hi. I wasn't going to email today - the sun is shining. got to make the most of it whilst not working -- but I have to

mrdarcy that abuse isn't 'subtle'. It is gross emotional abuse. If you look at any research on this , it is textbook. I think most posters on here have suffered from the same thing. Buy Pete Walkers book - you will find yourself in there. It adds up to complex ongoing trauma. Complex PTSD.I was told constantly that I was Wednesday's child. "Full of woe". Not allowed even to look at my mother 'in the wrong way'. And, and, and .... Lord knows why I ever thought this was normal or OK, . I suppose because narcissists make you think it's because they can't help it.Because their childhoods were abusive or over controlled [probably were]. Maybe you get it in the neck because they can take it out on you - you're small and helpless / they don't know any other form of parenting/probably she was jealous of your beauty and youth ?? So you're bloody well not going to be allowed to enjoy it, if at all possible. Realise that if they suffer from Narcissistic Personality Disorder , even borderline -- then they will have little or no self awareness, so the above is subconscious - and therefore it is probably not worth even challenging it. Look at the 'daughters of narc mothers' website. NPD is partly genetic, partly learned.

Walker says that the children of abusive parents are manipulated by divide and rule. There is so little love handed around [ too little felt anyway] - that the siblings feel jealous of any attention given out - to anyone, by anyone. And they maintain the status quo by sniping and vying for attention. I can vouch-save for that ! I 'troll' my family media group now, and it's so enlightening - who contributes , who doesn't, my DM controlling/rewarding/ complaining. See your mother, jannerite , stirring it up. Bet she loves this ! I wonder who told your DB that his ex was badmouthing you ? Bet she wasn't. How dare you continue to maintain contact - and love. Don't answer the phone to your mother if you can't make yourself put the phone down. Make your own relationships. I read someone who posted somewhere that she'd contacted relatives who had been 'excluded', and that they are now her real family - they were unacceptable because they weren't dysfunctional enough/ or functional enough to remove themselves. When the going gets tough, the tough get going as the song says

Hi everyone.

Tombiloo, I struggle with this too. Have you read Laura Markham's parenting book? Title is something like Peaceful Parent Happy Kids. It talks a lot about how to manage your own emotions which I found very thought provoking and helpful. Although difficult to put into practice!

I have a question. Yesterday I read pretty much everything on the Daughters of Narc Mothers site. Massive lightbulb moment. Everything has changed, and nothing has changed. I feel like I have woken up into a different world this morning. But struggling with huge guilt and denial and doubt.

Question is - how did you cope with this process of acknowledging and naming what it is?

I feel so guilty and I keep thinking I'm such a fraud, there's no way it's that bad, I'm just a horrible person.

A h, but it has changed. You've changed . You've seen what you couldn't 'see' before. And it's not easy. And it will probably get harder before it gets better, because now your brain has starting thinking about it, It can't stop . Unless you're wonderfully good at denial, that is . But then, you wouldn't be here ?

The feelings [ in my opinion ] are the bit of yourself that wants, versus doesn't want, to do something about it [ is this the inner child ?] - and the parental voice in your head saying don't change / I need you not to change/ how dare you ? / after all I've done for you. Whatever conditioning you've had put on you for x number of years.

Been there Sorry it's so painful.

I'm so very sorry for not reading and commenting properly to all of your others' issues. I'm here in spirit, willing you on, wishing you well! I just get overwhelmed very easily, it seems.

toomuchtooold Yes I'm in therapy. The therapist is great. But I find myself dissociating a lot whenever I get into the abuse stuff. I feel like my body parts aren't really mine, I feel all unreal, I start getting a shouty voice in my head get angry at me for speaking about it and so on. In the past few weeks I've had several occasions when I've just blanked off periods of time altogether. That's happened in the past, but very rarely, so I think it's thinking of the trauma that's causing it to happen more.

On a different topic... DH has a tricky relationship with MIL. Not a proper abuse past, as far as know - more neglect and unstability, and his mum has been quite histrionic for as long as I've known her. Now she's suddenly quite ill. DH doesn't want to get in touch with her, it seems. He just doesn't seem to want any kind of contact, although hasn't gone "officially" NC. Just never calls or visits. I assume I should just leave this all upto him? Not interfere or try to have a relationship with MIL behind his back?

Hi everyone,

Long term reader here and find reading everyone's stories helps me through so much knowing there is other people out there like me! Find it hard to talk to friends as sometimes I feel stupid and things weren't that bad growing up but around two years ago it was like something clicked in my head and all these feelings and flashbacks of my childhood came flashing back. I walked out of my parents house that day and have rarely been back.

Since then I have been LC with some members and NC with others, have read a lot of books and did a lot of research since then and some days I cry and remember more things that happened. I don't have many memories at all I can remember starting school and constantly been sent home because I wet myself because I was too afraid to ask teacher to go to toilet, I was painfully shy something I only got over in my teens, I didn't have many friends I was bullied which I kept to myself because I wasn't going to get any help from my parents.

At home I was the scapegoat the trouble maker etc etc I do remember crying myself to sleep a lot and I used to read a lot I did well in school but then in my teens things at home got worse, like many teenagers I started to smoke and I was caught this is when the silent treatment started, it was how my father ( I find it hard to type it or say that word) punished me on and off until age 16 when he stopped speaking to me and I'm here now in late 30s and he still doesn't speak to me, he used beat my younger brother ( my fellow scapegoat!) a lot and stopped speaking to him too.
my mother goes along with all this she always said she doesn't want to get involved! She used come to me to bitch about my father and his affairs but always still remained loyal to him and made it'll obvious he will always come first before her children, other siblings are treated like gods by my parents completely spoilt etc while myself and my bother are ignored, I used try everything to please my father stupidly in the hope he would speak to me again until the day it hit me that it will never happen and here I am!!!

Sorry for long post feels good to let it out, because for years I pretended I was from a nice family to the outside world it all looks great we are all normal, but if I met my father on the street he would turn the other way, I tried a few times to talk to him when i was younger but he ridiculed me and laughed about it to my siblings in front of me, my siblings all laughed along so I never tried again!! I guess now as a mother I find myself wondering how could anyone do this to their child, I am not a bad person I have good career etc my relationships always suffered alright until I met dp who understands and actually is a family friend so he knows the story and how I was treated and is so supportive and agreed when I went NC with members of my family.
Thanks for the opportunity to vent

Thanks makealist, your words really struck home as I'm so used to it all being minimised: they did the best they could, I don't remember it being like that etc. I feel like you are my people, even though I wouldn't wish you having to go through all the pain you've experienced to become a member of this particular club. Yes the labelling - that's such an effective way to manipulate others. If you're told you're full of woe then any complaint you make or hurt you feel is immediately undermined - it's just makealist, she's always got such a downer etc. Plus it's a way to make you lose your identity because you're not allowed to be fun, irrepressible makealist because that's not your role. Any attempts to be like that are just squashed. It's difficult to question their opinions about you when you're a child because they are much more powerful than you. They appear to know more about most things, so why would they be wrong about you. By the time you're old enough to be able to question it, their opinion of you is so ingrained in yourself and has become part of the family script, that it's really hard to shrug it off. Plus often others in the family collude with this because a) you're drawing the flak away from them and b) they get the payoff of being the golden child.

angelscare how cruel your father is to blank you. It's extremely abusive. I don't think it's the smoking per se that you were being punished for but more for having your own mind and independent spirit. Did the 'golden' siblings resemble your parents more, reflect back their thoughts and feelings or flatter them? So sorry you and your brother were treated like this.

Am sorry to gate crash but am hoping someone could give me some advice. I am due to start counselling tomorrow but am now worried. There are so many therapists around here and I was overwhelmed and ended up picking one based on her picture. Feel utterly lost in it all. How do I know if a therapist is good? Feeling very anxious about it all

Nomoreworkathome I think the most important thing is whether or not you'll feel comfortable with them, and you can't really tell that without trying. It's worth looking up or asking them what kind of education and experience they have (eg. are they experienced in working with the kinds of issues you have), and if they're a member of any professional organisation, such as BACP. But all of these won't guarantee a good fit. I'd say go in and talk honestly about your problem, and about your thoughts and worries about the counselling/counsellor. She should welcome talk about it and be open and reassuring with you, hopefully. Good luck.

Thank you Prozac
Am about to open a huge can of family worms and Im dreading it

Good luck Prozac hope it goes ok

Mrdarceyfanclub yes my golden siblings did no wrong they were perfect children I used to have a relationship with them but not anymore I was sick of being put down and made feel inferior. My brother unfortunately has had a lot of problems and drinks a lot and has had toxic relationships, he attempted suicide a couple of years ago but luckily he has got help, his partner at the time told me he has a lot of issues that stem from our Father, I think DB sees my father doing things with our other brothers and obviously feels left out.

Now the problem is we are all growing up settling down and now the favouritism is starting with the grandchildren the cycle is starting all over again, that's half of the reason I backed away from them all, I have tried to speak to DB and told him to back away too as it's easier to stay away than watch our children being treated differently but unfortunately I don't think he is ready yet

It is hard to accept your parents are wrong and what they did and are still doing is toxic and when you start to realise and think about what happened it hurts, as a teenager I was never home I stayed in friends houses a lot and their parents were very good to me they knew something was going on, I jumped from one boyfriend to another I needed someone to look after me, i wasn't encouraged to go to college or nothing I think at this stage my DM told me they were washing their hands of me! Obviously I went off the rails but pulled myself together a few years later and made something of myself

DP and I have started to discuss getting married and it hit me that I don't want to get married and when I thought about it I realised it was because I have no one to walk me down the aisle, know it sounds stupid but I think it would be another kick in the teeth for me that my father rejected me, even explaining to people what do I say?that my father just stopped speaking to me nearly 20 years ago, it sounds so stupid and as I said my family have put on such a front and my father looks like the perfect family man, no one would believe it!

I'm new to this thread.

A bit of background, my childhood was rather horrid, I was ill throughout, plus my Mum really despised me and went out of her way, treating me very different to my siblings. With my Dad I think it was a mix of having a responsibility he didn't want, plus not knowing what to do, so he could be pretty firey. My Mums family always treated me with disdain.

I found out as an adult that I'm in fact illegitimate. The name of my father isn't known. I hold massive kudos to my Dad for bringing up a child that wasn't his, that explained some things there. It also gave more of a reason why my Mum & her family hated me so much.

I was bullied quite a bit for various reasons. If I'd been born in that situation now, I think I'd be taken into care, as teachers were aware that whilst academically I was sound, socially, emotionally etc, it was a different story. I recall teachers asking questions, but I always made out everything was OK, which I guess meant what I suffered was my own doing. I was born in the 70's, schooled in 70's & 80's. so there wasn't the child protection stuff like there is now.

As I've grown up Mums family continued with the same trend. I tried hard with my Mum, even after she outed the earth shattering news. Now I'm NC with my whole maternal family. It was made clear what they thought of me. It rubbed it in for them as they felt as the illegitimate child, I should have failed not excelled.

With my Dads family everything was OK to a point, then it went downhill. I've tried again as hard as I can to do nice things, to get in touch. Presents for Xmas & birthdays. But it's pretty much NC. Although DH has a great relationship with them as do both my DC.

My DC don't know that the paternal family isn't blood family, but regardless they do put a lot of effort in with DH and DC, so that will speak a lot to them, if it ever gets to a point where they need to know.

So the abuse has continued into adulthood, for me it's something that waxes and wanes, as in it hurts more sometimes than others. Especially when I'm trying really hard and do nice things via DC like getting things as a thank you gift and so on.

I'm not perfect, but I've always tried hard to be the best person I can be. The hardest thing is knowing that my maternal and paternal family happily and openly slag me off to others, leading others to make judgements about me, which I feel to be unfair.

DH loves being a martyr, so whilst I do my best by DC and for me, my experiences as a child have impacted my parenting. No shouting, no smacking, no threats. As DH will drop them off at clubs before school and then pick them up after school, I'm deemed to be a lazy bitch. Whilst actually I'm disabled and suffer 24/7. Not only that but a lot of problems if diagnosed in childhood, could have been sorted, preventing lasting damage. So I do my very best, but it gets over shadowed by what DH does, plus what they think I should do. It's not lazyness, I really wish it was.

It hurts that your own family can put so much blame on your shoulders, for things that you had no control over. I didn't ask to be conceived, I didn't ask not to be aborted.

What Mum tells her teenage child that as the pregnancy was discovered late, they considered private termination, when technically I was viable. This is the type of stuff I dealt with, like I wish you were aborted, you ruined my life, my dreams, my happiness.

Now with my Mums family refusing to talk, my Dads family are pretty much the same. I can't begin to describe how isolating it is.

for all the other posters.

I'm so sorry fairytales . Why do people take things out on their kids that were their responsibility? i.e to have or not have a child. I do wonder whether the being lovely to your DH and DCs [ but not you] isn't just another way of getting at you ? Also, how do you know what they think about your childcare arrangements ? Is DH complaining to them? In which case, what is the investment in that for him ? I'm sorry you feel isolated - family aren't the only company around though. Is there a local MN group around for example?

I actually came on here to say I'm also ringing a counsellor this morning to arrange my free first session. I went onto www.counselling-directory.org.uk - which is nationwide . And clicked on 'emotional abuse' in the pull down bar on the left to find what I was looking for. This person seems to have a specific interest in complex trauma ! I see also that a lot of counsellors do telephone/ skype/ even email counselling - or groups. They may be cheaper? Money is an issue when you haven't got much and I need not to feel guilty [ as well as everything else], so I've got my own ideas of how much I can spend. I know I need to move on - to walk the walk as well as talk the talk [ to myself mainly] - but I'm not well off. So we will see. As prozac says, you just have to see how you get on. I've seen counsellors before and you'll know if it's a goer after the first session.

Hopeful, scared, a bit depressed, determined, excited .

Fairytales
I always made out everything was OK, which I guess meant what I suffered was my own doing.
No, not at all. First of all I imagine you went through the same thought process as I did, which was "what happens if this person mentions something to my mother?" I never brought anything up to anyone, because I was scared of what she would do to me if she found out I'd been complaining. Second, there's studies that show that insecurely attached children tend to seek their mothers' affection more than securely attached children. The fact that we didn't get enough love from them made us even more dependent on them for any small scrap of love - so of course breaking up the family is unthinkable.

Also I wouldn't give your dad all that much kudos for sticking with you. If he didn't want the responsibility he should have walked away. And your being illegitimate was maybe an explanation for your mother and her family being so cruel but it was no excuse. If they were so particular about children born out of wedlock why didn't they ostracise your mother, who was the one who actually did anything? You were a baby, as innocent as all children.

Am I reading it right, that your family are calling you lazy because of what your DH does? Same question as makealist - what does your DH make of that, and does he complain to them? I hope not. My mother used to try that shite on me, about what a hero DH was when our twins were tiny, that he would do the night feeds on the weekends Never mind that he could have a lie in while I was doing 4 or 5 days and nights straight, alone, and hallucinating with tiredness by the last day. It's designed to divide and conquer, to set you against each other, while making you feel really bad about yourself.

Angels
She used come to me to bitch about my father and his affairs but always still remained loyal to him

Oh yeah, my dad used to do this. My dad was abused as a child and I think they/we sort of lose the ability to look at bad behaviour and make a decision to take action. My dad seemed to be satisfied just to know that someone else agreed with him that my mum was out of order. But to go on from there and bloody leave, forget it.

Regarding the wedding, would you even want any of them there? I had a small wedding but our families were there, and I wish we'd eloped - it was my original plan but my mother guilt tripped me into letting her come. "If we could... if we could just maybe have some photos of the wedding?" I mean actually it would probably have been fine for her if we had just done a load of photos and photoshopped her into them, all she really wanted was to be able to show off to the family (she would constantly tell me about so-and-so aunty who was mortally wounded about not having been invited to the wedding, and then when I actually met said aunty it would turn out they were not the slightest bit bothered). Her and my narcissistic father in law had a falling out about the wedding photos that ended up with him giving us a wedding album but refusing to part with the negatives to the photos of our actual wedding and us having to pass on the wedding album to my mother and pretend it was for her. She took all the photos out of it, threw the album away and bought her own. What we have ourselves now is an album of the snaps from a couple of disposable cameras that me and my best mate had with us on the day, plus a massive A2 picture that my 4yo daughter drew of me and DH after asking about our wedding. It's my favourite record of the day even though it was drawn 14 years after the wedding took place!

Good luck makealist! I hope you guys hit it off. Don't be afraid to try a couple of different counsellors, it can take a while to find someone you can work with.

I've been reading The Body Keeps The Score which you should all read, it's really good. I was put off by the fact that I thought it was all going to be woo and opening my heart chakra to cure my asthma and stuff like that but the guy actually has a medical degree and a massive career full of treating people with PTSD. There's a lot of stuff about CPTSD as well.
It's convinced me to try yoga - he reckons that being present in your body, and also being attuned to other people (like in singing) is really healing. I tried Tai Chi once before and had what I now understand and can recognise as an emotional flashback, but at the time all I had was a feeling of really not wanting to do the movements and a toxic shame at not being "normal" enough to be able to do it like everybody else. The author of that book reckons that physical movements can be huge triggers for emotional flashbacks and I can see it through my life now, I used to have a real love/hate relationship with exercise classes and a feeling like I say of toxic shame that would come up for me in really odd times. I had a bit of a cry yesterday thinking about how even something as healthy and unattached to my bloody mother as going to exercise classes was bloody ruined and complicated for me by the abuse, and ended up making me feel even less like a human being than before. I'm so angry at her. I look back over my life so far and honestly, everything that's weird and unpleasant and awkward about me has the same flavour, that same feeling of toxic shame. I'm getting ever more outraged as I get more relieved, to realise that I am a fucking lovely person (in theory), and that pretty much everything about myself that I hate was caused by the abuse. I'll get free of it though, I'll live without it once, and she never will, so that's my revenge.
Right now I have to go and do yoga and think calm thoughts. I don't think you're supposed to do yoga and get angry, are you?

Angels

When I was a teenager my Mum did a similar thing, but reversed. I was quite innocent, she was with step Dad, I said wow it's so cool you've only ever slept with 2 men. I made this assumption as I thought my Dad was my Dad, Mum made the move straight onto Step Dad. She laughed calling me a silly little bitch, bragging about all the affairs she'd had. I didn't know what to make of it. One affair was very close to home, I remember calling her a slag around my maternal Grandparents, which went down rather well. I even defended it saying, she bragged about having affairs, my GP said, well your Dad obviously wasn't a good husband. Mums now split from Step Dad, but he'll always be my Step Dad, firstly because he was there in my teenage years, secondly he's my other siblings DF, thirdly she did the same to him as my Dad.

I've got a brother and 2 sisters from my Dad I grew up thinking was my Dad. Then I've got quite a few half siblings and step siblings. I don't really have much to do with them.

Mum will make a big fuss how her youngest daughter is the best daughter in the world. That really upsets my other sisters. Although they had it quite easy compared to me, so we don't always get on that well. When they complain about trivial stuff, I think at least you weren't wound up crying till you were hyperventilating. I can still recall now, from being really little and my Mum doing this, she'd always say, it's only because I love you. Yes making your daughter gasp for breath from crying is a benchmark of good parenting.

I guess you're right, when my parents split we were given the choice of where to stay, I chose my Dads so my siblings all stayed with me.

I moved out after I finished my GCSE's as I couldn't take the sporadic behaviour from my Dad. Plus my brother had the weird rule of, I can beat up my sisters, but no one else can. My parents wouldn't do a thing about it. So I was getting it from every angle.

I have the best relationship with my brother now though. I know if I ever need help he's always there. Where with my sisters, they'll take the help when they need it, but are always too hard pressed if you need something.

I'm a 40 year old frightened child that plays at being a grown-up. I'm scared to sleep but scared to be awake at night and I struggle to function as a 'normal' human.

Tomliboo, I really identify with this. I was like this too, when my first child was born, I was 35 and felt like a big sister rather than the mum. I also use to view other people, mainly other women as "grown ups" and kind of felt inferior to them in my head. When I was 39, a new family moved next to us and I thought "oh, they are grown ups". It turned out that the mrs of that family was just five months older than me. Zeesh, this sounds quite fucked up when written down but that's how I use to feel and think.

That has all changed since the light bulb went in my head and I had no option than to go no contact with my DM and DSD. I've processed so much information and feelings in my head since (2.5 years) and not so long ago I realised that in the process I've matured emotionally about 20 years and now I feel like the competent adult and equal to my peers. I still have many fleas to shift but just thought to write this down here.

On another note, I am still trying to understand how ptsd manifests itself. For instance, when my husband loses his patience with our boys and starts shouting, It makes me feel horribly sick and I get flashbacks of my little brother and myself huddled agains a wall. These flashbacks are very fleeting and "grainy", it took me a while to work out why I felt horrible and kind of zoom into that flashback.

I need to add that my DH isn't abusive, but he's not very patient when it's bedtime and the silly little boy antics starts.

I also get a horrible knot in my stomach if I've done something wrong. And then it's followed by a flood of relief when I remember that I'm an adult and allowed to do my own fuck ups.

I think if you've grown up in a bad environment it's almost like you're programmed into reacting like you would as a child. I can't shout at my DC's, if they get upset I get upset too as I don't want them to feel like I did when I was younger. Luckily whilst I'm a true softie, DH will put his foot down, so they're not crazily spoilt.

I can relate to these latest posts in so many ways. The hiding under a table with my brother. The feeling sick the moment I got off the bus when visiting, even when I was a pensioner myself.

It is part of our conditioning to think that not shouting at children equates to spoiling them. Many Stately Home survivors spend a lot of time in fear of making the same mistakes as our parents. You can break the cycle. I watch the gentle parenting that my GKs receive and it is such a relief. My three children all have partners who are soft and kind. Strangely enough though, 4 out of the 6 other Grantparents all have spoken of the harshness of their own upbringing.