"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

So sorry didn't mean that to be so long! 😳

I keep thinking about the money. For years I have been wishing she would support me the way she bankrolls my younger siblings, though she gaslighted me about doing it even though I know she does. And now she's offering me what I've been wishing for years she would offer me, equal help and support, and I don't know what to do!

murmurisation I think I could, no I am fairly sure, I could take the money and move on without feeling obligated. My mother also uses money as an expression of love. Money and home-cooked food!

Gaaahhh years of hiding away in my room has made me an awful navel gazer and over-thinker, I just need to make a decision and move on!

katiogoestoaldi

Do not take her money; even if you are fairly sure do not take the money!. It is in any case loaded with obligation and it is something that could be used against you further. Also your brother contacted you re this, not her. I would also ask why now as well?.

She has controlled your siblings with money and she will do the same with you. Nothing else she has tried has worked so she will use money instead. Its also a mechanism for control.

Narcissists will be generous in giving presents but then expects you to submit without question and to immediately comply with their demands. They will also flaunt their money and use it as a weapon against the less fortunate, including you or other family members.

Honestly do not take the money. I would much rather you get the £1500 from a credit union; they won't rip you off either emotionally or financially. Your mother will.

bookonshelf

Better to be alone than to be so badly accompanied. Also your children do not need to be subjected to their emotional manipulations either.

Money has been used by these people to control you. Their offers of money were never without strings attached and they have expected you to bend to their will from a very early age.

I would walk away from your parents and this know it all narcissist relative; that person is simply acting in their own interests rather than yours.

I am not surprised either to read that your previous relationship was with an emotionally and physically abusive person; your parents set you up good and proper to accept such from a man because they taught you to accept no better. Look at all the damaging stuff they taught you about relationships. That will all need to be unlearnt.
I would also stop all communications with your ex inlaws; they will continue to back their son regardless of what he did to you and their reactions are typical. They are not the support you need, nor is this know it all narcissist (who is also chummy with your ex, that person sees a kindred spirit).

I would talk this through with a therapist and additionally such a person well versed in the machinations of narcissistic family structures. BACP are good and do not charge the earth.

Do look at Womens Aid Freedom Programme and if possible go to one of the programmes. Its online as well. This is for people who have been in abusive relationships and I think this would help you as well to move forward.

Hi, book and katie.

I agree with everything Atilla says. The credit union idea is a very good one - they are in most [ all?] reasonably sized towns now. Money from controlling parents never comes without strings - or in their case a bungy rope that pulls you back towards them. If you are an empathic person you will feel obligated. And if you aren't 'grateful' and show it , then you'll be badmouthed all over town - I know, because that's what happens in my family. " After all I've done for x, he/she still treats me like this. She's happy enough to take my money ". Cue the pity party. My DM dislikes me for saying No. When other people don't. Money can't buy you love, as the song says.

I agree with book re the confusion about support. As I think about this more and more, I realise that [ especially now I've decided to stop chasing my DM for the attention,support and validation I've never had] I'm now in danger of trying to get some from other family members. And they're generally conditioned into not giving it me either. Talk about addicted ! In dysfunctional families, everyone has their own shit - so basically yes, they won't want to hear the word abuse [ because everyone has enabled it to 'keep the peace' and maintain relationships even if toxic.] Richard Grannon asks what is your room 101 thing - mine is not to lose family. Have you both looked at his YouTube videos ? Excellent.

I don't know about the know-it -all narc, will have to look it up - but I do think that in families we take/are given roles. And if that role is to rush in and look after/organise/ solve/ save people .To get the strokes you crave , then some people can internalise this. " I'm the only person who can handle this" . Cue lots of praise and attention. The problem seems to me to come if they're not allowed to do so. You don't need someone poking around in your head who is part of the problem in the first place.

Finally - gosh, my turn for an essay ! I've had free counselling from time to time [ only 1 or 2 sessions but very helpful] , When a student from college [ school, uni?] and from work [ if affects work / to do with work] . I wonder if self help organisations like MIND, MS groups etc, carers association, Age concern, Gingerbread ? offer talking services - in some authorities it seems as though those on benefits can access talking services free ? Just a thought.

I can't afford counselling but reading this forum and watching the videos and buying the odd book has been enough for me to feel like a new beginning. Never too old to change. Never.

Katie, I agree with the others regarding the money. In principle I think any of us should be able to accept money from our parents without having to feel obliged or guilty. But it sounds like it's already upsetting you and you'd struggle with guilt if you took the money, and you might struggle to maintain NC. That's even assuming the offer is no strings, which I 99.9% believe it won't be.

Book it's weird isn't it when you start to see the same sort of dysfunctional dynamics with friends as you've spotted in your own family isn't it? I had a "friend" like that in my life for a couple of years and the worst thing was that as soon as my life started to visibly improve she ghosted on me. It bothered me for ages, what had happened, because I couldn't make sense of it, and it wasn't until I started reading about NPD regarding my mother that I realised she was probably also some variety of narc and that she'd needed me to be her useless, chaotic friend who made her feel better about her own life.

You say I guess it's better to be on my own than surrounded by dysfunction? and I think that's right - plus when you clear the decks a bit, it gets easier for the nice people to make friends with you!

Can't believe this. I plucked up the courage after god knows how long to try and get sone help in dealing with my feelings thanks to my Marc mother making me feel like shit every day in everything I do even though I'm LC with her....found out in my area you can self-refer for counselling services. Filled in the form and a lovely lady called me to schedule a telephone assessment. That was four weeks ago and the call was supposed to come at 10am today. Nothing. I can't call them and ask what's going on because it was a withheld number that first time and there's no online number to call.

How can they do that? I have been physching myself up for weeks about tackling this finally with that call to get the ball rolling. And then they don't even bother to phone.

Feel gutted and at a loss on how to move forward with it now

Oh hake I'm really sorry to hear that.
I often think (specially with the NHS services, I mean they're stretched, it's how it is) that in order to access help you need to be mentally stronger than most "normal" people. It's really tough to have waited, and like you say you're psyched up to talk about the difficult stuff, and then - nothing.
Can you find a way of contacting them? Is there maybe a central office that you can contact to let them know the call didn't happen?

Hake

Am sorry to read how you were let down.

I would contact the person who called you to schedule this appointment but I would now look into using another service like BACP (particularly if this counselling service is NHS based. I suggest that because such on the NHS has long waiting lists and can be both limited in scope and number of sessions).

Counsellors though are like shoes, you need to find someone who fits in with your approach so the first person you see may not necessarily be the right one.

Is there any way of further reducing all levels of contact with your mother, even a small boundary like number of phone calls etc.
Reading the daughters of narcissistic mothers website could help if you have not already done this.

I can't call her. It's a withheld number. They have all my contact details but I have none of theirs....she just sounded so efficient with booking the appointment! but they've not contacted me since at all, no email or text, just radio silence.

I know the NHS is stretched....I didn't mind the wait. It was just the total lack of communication that's really got to me.

Just feel like I'm im back to square one now with regards to reaching out for help. It took me years. I'm trying to reduce contact with my mum....she doesn't phone, it's the comments on social media and messages via other family members that get to me.

As mentioned BACP are good and do not charge the earth; I would try them or someone similar.

Would you be willing and able now to completely remove yourself from all forms of social media or at the very least only have a private FB page only open to a select few. FB and the like are ideal tools for narcissists to further get at their victims. You could also block her e-mail address if she uses that too.

You will ultimately have to be no contact with your mother and the people who she readily uses as her "flying monkeys" sent in to do her bidding. The flying monkeys are not acting in your interests, only theirs by thinking and believing that they know what is best for you.

Thanks Attila sounds like they might be worth a try....when I'm feeling a bit stronger I'll contact them...I'm not expecting to hear any more now from the services I did contact. I suppose I could ask my GP but they just seem to push CBT on me....or anti depressants. I'm not depressed. I just need to talk to someone to work through it.

It's going to be so hard to break away from her but I do know I have to try....last time she said I was making her ill and made me feel so guilty I cracked.

harriet

re your comment:-
"It's going to be so hard to break away from her but I do know I have to try....last time she said I was making her ill and made me feel so guilty I cracked".

She lied and said that to draw you back into her web of dysfunction. She wants you around to be her narcissistic supply; that is your purpose to her.

She is making you ill and anxious and has you mired in your own fear, obligation and guilt. You can break free of her and her associated flying monkeys.

Do try BACP when you feel ready and in the meantime read as much as you can about the role of scapegoats in narcissistic family structures.

Sorry for the name change after my first post

I thinkk I'll do some reading and try to get a bit stronger then I'll try the BACP.

The trouble is I love the flying monkeys....they are my brothers....but they are my brothers and they just don't understand.

I'm really sorry to hear that Hake - how frustrating. I didn't get very far at all with trying to get counselling on the NHS - had one short session with someone but it was more like CBT stuff and then offered group sessions. It wasn't what I needed at the time. I found the whole process quite upsetting really.

I ended up paying privately for counselling - the first session is usually free so you can find out whether they are a good fit for you or not. I ended up having 20 sessions but not every week. I've had a big break now but thinking of going back for another few sessions.

I have occasional face to face and telephone contact with my 'toxic people' Harriet but stopped email and social media well over a year ago. That has helped a lot. I managed to do it in a fairly subtle way to avoid any drama - I can't recommend that enough.

It's starting to dawn on me that I won't be free from all of this until I am NC (and I can't see that happening). I like the idea of a private forum to discuss some of this - I feel like I have to speak in generalisations too much. Yesterday we had, what I now see as, a very obvious hoovering/boundary crossing/gaslighting/grandiose/complete lack of empathy incident (yep the whole lot in 20 mins). Both rolled eyes after doing a very polite grey rock for the duration and said no more. Then two hours later it was obvious it has affected us a great deal - DH (who doesn't know about these words!) said how manipulative it all was and then had a rant and I found myself really down for the entire evening, to the point of tears. So draining!

I am hoping that the lowish contact/grey rock technique works...eventually... and I can stop thinking about this way, way too much. They have taken too much of our lives already!

Interestingly most of my counselling sessions seemed to revolve around DH's covert narcissist trait riddled parents (and then DH wanting to know what the counsellor said about x, y and z) rather than my own, more obviously, dysfunctional upbringing.

I had a phonecall today from my gp surgery. There is nothing at all on my record from seeing a psych in my teens. No record of anything at all! I find it odd. As I used to see the man at my gp surgery. I'm guessing there may have been something on my school record but I suspect this information will have long gone as I left school about 20 years ago. It would have been before all the data protection stuff so I doubt they would still have it.

I generally found in the frivolous bits of MN (telly addicts, style and beauty) under my normal username but know there is a wealth of wisdom for the important stuff.

I am hoping you can help me to the right part of MN - a friend disclosed a difficult thing and I am out of my depth .

Friend shared she was sexually abused by grandparent, others in family also affected in various ways. I know there are those here who can help guide her through what to do and who to talk to. Is this the right thread to talk about it? Is not, where?

Hi Logistical - I wouldn't know where to start either so I suggest that she (or maybe you on her behalf/with you there) contacts the 'National Association for People Abused in Childhood' - they have a helpline (although I have never used it).

If you want some other advice on MN then starting a single thread about would get more traffic.

Yes I second what toomuch (another toomuch, ha) says - relationships is probably a good place to start a thread where you'll get input from people with experience. There are definitely people on this thread who have knowledge and experience but most of us don't and I fear the question would get buried if you post it here.

The survivors trust, which is a sort of umbrella organisation for a lot of UK sexual abuse charities, might also be a good place to start.

mini there are gaps like that in my GP record too - I think it all hangs on whether your follow up letter gets sent to the right person (or even written) - I'd like to imagine it's better these days but experience suggests not. It's a shame because it's very validating to have evidence there in black and white.

I wonder if there would be records at the referring hospital? Like IDK how mental health services are arranged where you are, but where I grew up, any sort of NHS counselling would have been coordinated from the local mental hospital.

I've just been searching for this thread! Everything is feeling very raw today and I'm
Feeling pretty awful. What do you do to pick yourself up when you start to feel so down about it all?

Hi Wingingit88

Hope you're feeling a little better now a few hours later.

Distraction, really, is all that works for me atm. I try to get out of the house a lot, into nature if I can. Me and my daughter live with my parents atm (DF is the problem) so I try to focus on her and doing nice things with her.

One thing that really helped me was finding someone to talk to who believes me. That way, when we are in what I have recently come to identify as the gaslighting phase of the cycle, I know I'm not imagining it all!

Hi Evidence. Why are your sessions about your PILs ? Is that because you feel their abuse is more recent and needs addressing to cope - or is it that you are acting as a proxy client for your DH, who wants answers but can't make himself go to therapy/ doesn't want to admit abuse ? It should be about you, you know. It sounds as though your therapy has been hijacked.

Hi Wingingit . I found that just reading through people's messages made me feel better. knowing that other people were going through similar things. Reading the advice and support - gives you hope and a desire to change. Distraction from the obsessive circular thoughts. Keep posting ! There are even older threads than this one. Buy a book ? Toxic Parents is a pdf.

Hi again. Just thought I'd update on my attempts at LC. Atilla is right about it sometimes leading to NC. A month of no phone calls and only joining in family media thread ....and no contact at all. Or from others in the 'inner circle'. So what's new ?

I would like to add the Lost Child to the Scapegoat and Golden Child roles. I read about this a while ago and feel it describes me much better. After a childhood of abuse [ I don't suppose my DM wanted a child so soon after marriage, but there was no pill in those days], and following the arrival of more children soon after - I was ignored. Basically. A good lesson in being a survivor.

The lost child is outside the 'inner circle'. The family seem to learn to switch off as well. As though you know nothing about anything. Never do anything interesting. Always the visitor, rarely the visited. So going 'grey rock' and indeed LC is just same old,same old really.

Personally, after a lifetime [ 60+] of taking this to heart, I now think that they are the losers. I am interesting. I have done a lot. Being the outsider also makes it easier to take yourself outside of the dysfunctional system. Watching other people dancing to the tune. I do feel sorry for some of my family now, but unless they become aware of the dance, they will continue to lead a less happy life than they could have done.

Does the lost child/outsider role sound familiar to anyone else ?