"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

toomuch That sounds like a good plan, well done. Maybe book an appointment for a months time so you have a clear end point?

Spare I can relate to that, hank you for the link.

Flump re your eating disorder. Does your M having eating issues herself? If so maybe her different attitude compared to other health stuff was also about it being in competition or whatever with her own?

Sorry posted too soon. Flump or that the eating disorder came from you and wasn't in her control?

Sorry posted too soon. Flump or that the eating disorder came from you and wasn't in her control?

If it's upsetting you it's not silly . This person is clearly being manipulative, and very childish.

I don't know what to suggest though - the standard advice is to not feed the narc so to ignore. But I would be tempted to reply with something like 'Actually that's not what happened, but I appreciate that you realise you were in the wrong'. And then I would accidentally send the reply to 'all'... if that's possible.

But maybe don't take my advice

I suppose also, your response depends on how you want things to pan out long term. Do you want to go LC, maybe NC eventually? If so then ignoring is probably the best thing to do. Not easy though, I know

You and I both know that the alternative to the above is to keep trying to keep the peace and hope things will improve - and to keep being let down and upset by them.

Neither are easy though

Just wanted to pop back to say thanks very much for the replies to my posts, they were very helpful and supportive. I'm so glad for this thread.
I've read a post where someone's mother had got rid of very important things belonging to them, my mother did the same. I didn't have much growing up, so for years I'd place huge emotional attachment to things. I couldn't throw anything away either, and this has only been something I've been able to deal with as I finally processed everything that's happened. I remember my lovely grandad taking me out for the day to some kind of car show, you know the kind of thing that's held in a field in the summer. On one of the stalls I saw one of those mini woven rucksacks that used to be in fashion () and my grandad bought me it. I saw some blades of corn on the ground, I picked them up and put them in the rucksack (I used to do a lot of this kind of thing, to remember stuff I guess). Anyway I loved the bag and kept it for years. I'd then left home and on one occasion returned with then dp who helped me get together all of my stuff and sort through it so I could take what I wanted. I couldn't find the bag anywhere, dp was even in the attic going through everything. It'd gone my mum kept saying "it's not here, you obv got rid of it/took it with you" but I knew I hadn't because when I'd left I took what I could carry in a normal rucksack and a holdall. My mum had cleared my room out the weekend I'd moved out and god knows what she did with everything.

I hate her for what she did to me, I'm sad for all the things I didn't get to do, the confidence I never learnt and for this crappy 'half life' I now have to endure. Im incredibly prone to depression and I'm anxious a lot. 'Normal' stuff scares me! I'm currently having refresher lessons because once I'd passed I didn't drive for years, my instructor says I'm fine and 'I've still got it' but the feelings of not being any good at anything are so strong. Subsequently I haven't taken my kids on days out, I couldn't visit dh in hospital (I feel terrible guilt for this). I haven't even managed to do the weekly shop. When I was little I used to hold onto the fact that when I was a 'grown up' I'd prob grow out of it (!) but of course that didn't happen. I'm still me.

I remember one of my mums friends taking the piss out of me at the hairdressers (I was about 11 and having a French plait for some local thing) because everyone used to laugh at my sticky out ears but instead of pulling him up on it my mum just laughed along with him. I can remember my face burning red and trying to hold the tears back, cos then she'd have a go at me about that. (I then never wore my hair up). That's how she was, my feelings came last always, and if I dared to feel hurt or whatever about anything she'd have a go at me for that too. Even now I go nuts buying underwear because I never had enough, and a drawer full of clean smalls and suchlike makes me feel like I do actually have some value (I realize that might sound pretty random)

God reading this I don't know why on earth I ever tried staying in touch. I should've just left and never looked back. I'm not bothering anymore, it's nc for me now. She can pretend she doesn't know why but of course she bloody does.

On a lighter note 2 years ago I had my long hair lopped off to a tiny pixie cut dh loves it and says my ears are the cutest things ever.

I found this site about Narc parents guy - very useful

blogs.psychcentral.com/narcissism-decoded/2017/05/13-ways-being-raised-by-a-narcissist-can-affect-you/

Most useful line is the one about being able to change your future and that you aren't irreparably damaged. ( Although they are blooming damaging, these types of parents)

Fellow pixie cut wearer here!

I don't drive at all as my mother completely undermined my confidence around it.

Also Guy , you now have the anti-narc superpower of seeing their pattern of behaviour. You'll be able to act accordingly to protect yourself.

Mind you, you then have to process all the hurt caused by the narc behaviour over many years. But I'd rather be aware of the pattern than be abused and never notice the patterns.

Knowledge is power.

Thanks Lisette I shall read that link now.

guy the underwear thing reminds me that growing up I was never bought new clothes. My mum had a friend who's daughter was about 10 years older than me and basically gave my mum her daughters old clothes even down to the underwear. These were then the only clothes I had as she wouldn't buy me anything new. It makes me cringe now, thinking about it. She did however buy school uniform. She used to spend a fortune on it, she put a lot of importance on how I looked at school. Then she used to make me wear my uniform to anything where I needed to dress up a bit. I even wore it to my great grandmother's funeral.

I have issues around clothes now. I struggle to buy myself anything new and rarely throw anything away so I own worn out stuff with holes in it. I can't bring myself to buy anything second hand. I have friends who buy vintage stuff or go to charity shops but I just can't do it.

I struggle with 'grown up' things too. Just take things one step at a time. I used to listen to my iPod (I'm old) in the supermarket. I can go now but tend to get it delivered as taking 2 small children round a shop is a nightmare.

sleepy

I had this too as a teenager. I had a school uniform but that was about it. maybe two dresses. I used to dread dress down day as I had practically nothing. When I did try to take an interest in my appearance I was told that I was dressed up like a dogs dinner. I experimented with black eyeliner once - very lightly applied and was told I looked like a tart. I'd never treat a child the way I was treated (but that's why I'm a good Mum )

About the re-writing of events chest, from what I've been told and read narcs rewriting of events is a fantasy, a perfect reality show script with them as the star. I'd be inclined to ignore it, reality shows need emotive viewers, it makes them feel important. Besides, she'll write whatever you say off as she's always right?

It's interesting about clothes and school uniforms. I had loads of clothes, I got bought several full outfits every week, granted none were too my taste and farrrrr toooo old for me but I had one school uniform bought for the first year and it had to last me all through high school. Reflecting on this, I wasn't with mum, or rather she wasn't with me when I went to school so who cares that my clothes were old and didn't fit. I was immaculately turned out at family events though. Hmmmm. I'll be honest, although it's an amazing relief that oddities are finally beginning to make sense, things like this are creeping me out

I had knickers that had holes in. And not enough of them. I remember a PE teacher noticing one time when I was getting changed and looking really shocked at the state of them. I didn't get new bras when I needed them either. I made one myself somehow by cutting out the bra-formed part of a slip petticoat thing that had been handed down from someone else. Also when I first asked for deodorant she bought me some really cheap stuff that a) didn't work very well and b) smelled like something a boy would wear. I put it down to being poor, which we were, and I never complained, because I didn't feel I could. I am upset to write it now. It seems so much worse when you write it down because you have justified it in your head and excused them.

I've just remembered something about clothes. I was always bought clothes from I suppose the equivalent of Debenhams, those little boutiques inside a huge shop, as I mentioned far to old for me when I was 11/12 but one day I was going to a school disco and really wanted a ra-ra skirt like my school friends were getting. She did let me get one from a stall on a market and I adored it, it was white with red dots and red piping and I kept stroking it and holding it up against me. I felt I'd finally fit in. But when it came to the day of the disco I'd done something 'wrong' (I don't know what) but my punishment was that I wasn't allowed to wear it. I remember I was crying as if my world came crashing down and saying that I didn't want to go to the disco but she made me go and I had to wear an old pair of scruffy jeans.

Oh hell, a third here on the school uniform! I had clothes for outside school but being an angulfing type, my mother decided for me what they were. She favoured clothes appropriate for a kid years younger than me so that at 10 she was trying to buy me a big puffy peach party dress for the school disco, the kind of things my kids like now aged 5. It was one of the few things I bothered trying to influence, because it made life so much easier if I was dressed like my peers - I wasn't such an obvious target for bullying then.
My reaction to it was to dress in pretty severe, androgynous sort of clothes, and that's basically where I am now still.

My school uniform was horrible stuff that she had made herself with 20 year-old patterns. The fact that she'd knitted the cardigan and sewn the skirt made it all the harder to complain about. I'm still not sure whether it's fair that I am... When I was about 14 I saved up and bought a shop-made school jumper with my own money. I loved that jumper so much! None of it was washed often enough - what with that and the deodorant I must have smelled awful.

A lot of fuss was made over clothes for weddings and family things and clothes for church. I suppose that's normal, thinking about it? But everyday stuff, she was pretty neglectful of. I was always the one with the awful clothes who didn't fit in.

I think mine is also more the engulfing end with this. She bought all my clothes when I changed shape a while back, which was very generous but gave her power. She had the final veto. I really wanted one particular thing, had imagined myself in it etc, but I wasn't allowed it. I realised recently it is standard that I have to have my clothes critiqued and have suggestions or things bought for me that aren't what I want and I haven't asked for. Often not remembering that I have said I don't like or don't need a particular thing. It's like she owns my appearance to some degree and feels the right to comment on it etc. I often feel I can't feel angry as it is generous of her.

I found this website yesterday, it has a paragraph on narcs as gift-givers that might explain a few things.

www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html

I thought the whole page was a good read, it's not heavy going and even though it's no laughing matter I did raise a few smiles when I read through it because some of it reminded me of how David Attenborough would speak about a strange species of animal. It also added an extra layer of validation as some of the things highlighted I was nodding away at.

For some reason I've been feeling pretty shit this evening .

I was half watching The One Show and David Walliams was on. His mother was then brought on to sit with him. She was looking at him with clear love and admiration written all over her face and for a second I though 'Ah how lovely', then it hit me right then that I have never seen my M look at me that way. And now I feel shit. Really, really sorry for myself that I got landed with the fucked up excuse for the mother I have. And really, really sad that I'll never have the experience of having a parent who gives a genuine shit. And now for some reason I also feel really on edge and anxious.

I suppose the one positive in all that is that I'm recognising my feelings?

I suppose the one positive in all that is that I'm recognising my feelings?

Yeah it doesn't feel like a positive does it? There's a hell of a lot of dead encyclopedia salesmen (if you watched that Richard Grannon video through) that have been waiting a long while to be felt. If it gets too much, try and find ways to shift your attention - computer games and brisk walks in the forest do it for me - you don't have to feel all these feels all at once, and you don't want to retraumatise yourself.

Yes I watched it - thanks

Morning everyone

I've seen my actual mum look at people like that, babies, small children (which I believe is not unusual) but also old men, like really old men . She was telling me last week that they went to view a house for sale and the owner was a really old frail man, she obviously doesn't know him from Adam and has never met him before, but she declared that he was so lovely and she just wanted to hug him so tight. I've never even heard my mum say she wants to hug anyone before and the look in her eyes as she was reminiscing (staring up into space) was like the look of love. It was very bizarre.

A few thoughts have popped into my head. I was chatting yesterday about my mum has this thing about houses. The only way I can describe it is that it's as though if you get invited into someones house you're invited into their soul. She doesn't get invited into people's houses much and she takes proper offence over it, she'll fall out with people then declare '... and they never invited me into their house!' Also when she meets people she's really super keen to get them into her house, not for a meal or anything, no, just for a look around. She's got a regular little house, it's not like anything spectacular or special, it's just house. The thing that popped into my head though was when Grandma (my dad's mum) died a few years ago the funeral car set off from my parents house, not my grandmas. I wondered if that was as odd as it feels to me?

The other thing is, this is something that used to traumatise me as a child and I believe it still goes on now. My dad just HAS to be at the front of a queue for anything, he has to be first there, and he will not queue up for anything. He used to proper lose his temper at airports because of his need to be first at the gate, first on the plane, he'd scream at us to make us run but yet the plane wouldn't set off until we were all on it. He'd also freak if there was someone with needs that was allowed to jump the queue. He won't queue up or wait in a coffee shop or a cafe either, he'll walk around and find one with no queue so he can get seen to straight away. This actually winds my mum up and she's meant to be the narc. Is this a thing or am I making things fit?

Hi Treacle it's weird, and maybe it makes me feel a bit better to realise I've never seen her look at anybody that way - not for years anyway. She constantly has this kind of pinched, fixed look on her face like she is purposely putting on some kind of mask to the world.

I have wondered over the past few years if she might genuinely have something wrong with her, as in a physical illness that's bringing all the worst bits of her personality out more. But I've also read that narcs can get much worse as they get older, partly because they are becoming more invisible to the world and less needed/admired etc.

Makes sense I suppose.

I don't know if it's a thing either but coincidentally when my GPs died on my M's side, the funeral cars set off from our house too, but I don't know if that's relevant to anything?

And on your other point - my dad always seemed quite stressed and unable to relax - he would be quite jumpy and always in a hurry if we were out anywhere. I've never given it much thought but now I'm thinking he was probably stressed out from running round like a blue arsed fly always trying to keep my narc M happy.

My DM has a beady-eyed look. Kind of like she's calculated you're going to respond in a certain way and she's now waiting. It can be a bit freaky if you catch her doing it.