"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

flump I fully support buying wine

Another vote for wine

I've been reading your posts but not felt up to commenting or chatting, I'm sorry, I've been pretty low, I think the realisation of things has hit me quite hard, but I'm okay now and I'm getting better.

for you all xx

My mum really pissed me off last week, I am still reeling that she was so bloody miserable and that she started bitching about my dad the minute he left, and that she blatantly tried to manipulate me over what I can and can't talk about in front of dad. I've spent the weekend pretty down about it, it started to feel like this is my life, this is what I'm in for and I even wished that I was still blissfully unaware. But then I got angry and pissed off and now I feel better and stronger. I hope it lasts.

Ive decided that I'm going to reduce contact even more. I'll still meet them both after work for a coffee once a week BUT whereas before my dad would leave me and mum to have a wander round the shops and then me drive her home (this is the time she uses to bitch and manipulate), instead I'm going to have coffee then leave. I'll make some excuse, it won't be difficult as I'm always running around with stuff to do. This way she won't be able to get me alone to dementor me but also she won't be able to tell my dad 'tales' about me, because I suspect she has been doing.

Does that sound like a good idea?

Also, I'll need my big girls pants on for this but I've promised my friends and my OH that I'll do it so I'm going to have to ... if when I meet up with them and she sits there with a face like thunder crossed with that martyred look and stares in the opposite direction when I try to jolly her up ... I'm going to get up and leave, telling her something like If she's not going to make an effort then I don't see why I should. I'm mega scared, my heart is racing just thinking about it but the thing is, when my OH asked 'why' am I scared and I said because she'll go ballistic and the fall out will be immense, he said yes but the thing is if she was any sort of mother she whould get in contact and ask if you're okay because you seemed very upset. We both agreed that this is unlikely to happen and at that point I knew this is why I have to do it.

My OH also said that it's okay to be grumpy, miserable even, but most 'normal' people realise that behaving like that has a detrimental effect on relationships and that's why most people have the self awareness to apologise for not being great company 'at the moment'. My mum last week was nothing short of bratty and she couldn't care less about the impact it was having on me, all she cared about was getting her point across, whatever that was.

Ste I love the idea of changing names, it'd be kind of like a re-birth. It's quite romantic in a hippy sort of way, positive. Xc

Chest My mum has always given my stuff away, even as a child I would discover favourite toys missing and she'd announce that she'd given them to such and such. It's as though I've trained myself to not care and not form emotional attachments to 'things' but I'm now thinking I've been kidding myself. I hope you get your stuff back xx

Flump My mum uses cash to control, to reward and to punish. I've always been aware of that, money is her favourite subject. About 15 years ago my grandma gave me and my dad a lump sum each. She told me I had to use mine to pay my mortgage off (smallish mortgage not 100,000's) so I did. My mum made out that as my dad was her next of kin not me that I had in fact taken from what my dad would be due. She persuaded me to cash in my endowment and sign the cash over to my dad and to take out and pay for an insurance plan so that if my dad died or became seriously ill she would be provided for, I did both of those things, she got a fancy new kitchen and bathroom and holiday from my endowment. I was a single parent at the time, skint as skint could be with no savings and yet she made me do all that. I've only just realised how fucked up that is.

Treacle have you read this? Where to Draw the Line: How to Set Healthy Boundaries Every Day www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0684868067/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_vGFgzbT46J3MK?tag=mumsnetforum-21
It helped me realise that the boundaries I wanted to set (and also some that I hadn't thought of because I've been so used to putting DM's needs first) weren't unreasonable. (I have to admit I'm still working on implementing them though.)

Yes, reducing contact sounds a really really good idea.

Thank you Spare I've been seeing people advise to set boundaries but I didn't know what they were. I knew what the word meant, but I didn't ever have any boundaries or know where to even start thinking of what I would even pick. I'm going to have a good read of that, it will be most useful. Xx

I'm back again so I will catch up. I had my first relate appointment the other week. It was liberating. And my big function passed on Friday with barely a hitch. My parents have said nothing about it, no enquiries as to whether it went well etc. But messages about the kids, their forthcoming birthdays and sorting out some time to have them overnight....

My sister has moved house. It says a lot that she hasn't even told her eldest daughter her new address let alone me. But ah well. Such is life and I will find out sooner or later. I've arranged to meet eldest niece in a week or so. I haven't seen her properly in over a year and she has grown so much. Moving out has done wonders for her!

So it became clear that certainly my mother thinks all this will be brushed under the carpet and never spoken of again. Father is apparently unwell, like I'm supposed to accept that as and excuse for his behaviour of decades. And I am using my new found confidence in my abilities to deal with other negative relationships as well.

Morning all.

I was thinking last night about boundaries and how I don't seem to have any and it got me thinking that I don't seem to have much in the way of emotions either. It's like my emotions are quite basic, I feel good or I feel bad, I like/love something or I don't like it, I feel happy or I feel sad. I seem to lack the ability to express feelings such as hurt, disappointment or frustration, although I can recognise these in other people so I do know they exist. It's hard to explain but yesterday when I was talking to a friend about how my mum behaved last week she said that she can tell that she's hurt me very much, and it clicked, yes I do feel very hurt but until that point I would have described my feeling as confused. Also, although i've been with OH for about 12 years and i've talked about my mum before it seems only this weekend that he's been emotionally receptive of my 'true' feelings, he's always known she's not right but previously i've felt as though he's aware and accepted the facts but a little 'dismissive' (if that's the right word) of how it made me feel. This weekend he's been very gentle and totally understanding yet i've said less. I'm wondering if i'm finally moving away from the black and white of feeling good and feeling bad and allowing myself to display those nuances of feelings that i've previously suppressed.

I'm wondering if this is a normal experience, have other people struggled with their own emotions and have trouble expressing the way they truly feel?

Treacle yes yes to the emotions thing. I think I was taught to bury them when I was quite small.

I get it specifically with sympathy because our family dynamics were all about ill health and whose was important and what needed to be covered up, and also there was always this strong sense of duty to do x or y that wasn't necessarily related to the amount of real empathy you felt for someone. I get this thing now where I either feel sympathy but it's so overwhelming I can't cope, or I put a wall up and don't feel any. I just never learned when I was small to feel my real feelings and respond to them appropriately, so I'm having to figure that all out now.

A couple of months ago I finally felt the real anger for the crap served up during childhood and I know that was good. But it's scary too, and a bit hard to handle.

I re-read the stuff with your DM and the mortgage. That is not the act of a loving mother. Are you sure complete NC isn't an option?

Haha, so I had emergency surgery yesterday, my mother has left a message on my mobile, deleted without listening, that isn't a road I'm even remotely interested in.

Hey ste, hope you're recovering OK! Stay strong and keep deleting those messages. Does she know you're in hospital? They love a good hospital visit, a captive victim and the chance for some sympathy.

flump I was really chuffed with the picture! DD2 tends to get bored with drawing but she really kept going with this one, asked for a look at the little hairband I wore so she could draw it. It was lovely

treacle Richard Grannon talks about this. is good on it - esp the bit from 8-12 mins in. I don't know if it's this video but he talks about how after years of dissociation and repression you end up with 2 emotions: OK, and bad. I also wrote a blog post which is about this - specifically that I can be physically feeling an emotion but not become consciously aware of it.

Theworst would you like to have your blog hosted on Stately Survivors (the new website and forum we're planning?) I'm on wordpress right now but will be migrating over to SS soon.

This is maybe a good time to ask if anyone fancies being our fourth volunteer for website admin? It won't be onerous, just things like approving new members and stuff like that. Also as I say if anyone
else is interested in having a blog hosted on there. Give me a PM if you're interested.

Toomuch I hope you don't mind, I've had a good read of your wordpress link and IMO it's fantastic.

I also see so much of myself in the video about two emotions - ok and bad - that it's almost freaky... That has been me for so long. It's like I know what emotions I'm supposed to feel, and can almost act along the right way, but inside there's a blank space where the 'feeling' should be.

Although lately I've been suddenly getting caught out by big waves of emotion (good or bad) which are a bit 'oh fuck' to get used to, they feel so powerful and actually physical, rather than just in my head, if that makes sense? My eyes have developed a permanent leak that threatens to spurt at any moment and weirdly I also find myself smiling and feeling kind of warm inside when I see or read something heart-warming - maybe I'm just going bonkers

A few days ago DH and I were driving past the airport and I suddenly grinned at him and said "I am sooooooooo excited about our holiday!". He was so shocked he nearly stopped the car - it sounds like nothing, but I actually never say/express things like that actually - apart from negatives (ie I'm worried, I'm stressed, I'm ill, I'm dreading...).

God what a fucking misery I've been

Hi Spare I'm the same with the sympathy, with some people in some situations (even on TV, it doesn't have to be real life and I don't have to know them very well either) I can literally feel their pain as though it is my own, it's totally overwhelming and physical yet with others it's like i'm as hard as stone. TooMuch I get a feeling of impending doom and I never know why, it just appears from nowhere, it feels like something terrible is about to happen but i'm not usually in a situation where it could. I've had it today, I was at work working away and it came over me and knocked me sick. I've had that exact feeling for years, more than 20, I can remember as far back as when my son was a baby and I was having a bath when that feeling came over me, I thought it was 'mothers instinct' warning me that there was something wrong with him, there wasn't. I've been putting it down to nerves because the feeling is similar but I get them when I have nothing to be nervous about.

Re- Going No Contact. I was trying to explain this to myself the other day. It's like for ever that I have gone along with my mum's wishes and wants, i've been a humanless bot. I've never even slightly challenged anything before and now in what seems like a sudden jolt i've woke from my bot like state and have this long long list of awful things that she's said, done and manipulated me about, the list is getting longer by the day as more memories are triggered yet I feel totally stuck over what to do with them. It's partly I wouldn't know where to start, partly I feel ashamed that i've not picked up on any of this before, partly i've allowed it to continue because i've just blindly gone along with everything and partly how can I be offended now when I was 'happily' compliant when it happened.

I've noticed that Atilla says that LC often leads to NC and I suppose that is what i'm holding on to. I'm actually hoping that I get the opportunity to be offended in the here and now so that I can say something in the here and now. I can feel something building with my mum, she's made no bones that she's not impressed with me cutting contact to once a week, she's already tried manipulating me for more contact (suggestions of how to organise my life so I can fit in an extra visit and tales of tears) and because that didn't work she's now trying to make out that she's a helpless victim (she's lonely, being bullied, hurting, sad, oppressed etc). I have a feeling that the next stage will be her lashing out or it could be punishment, something is definitely brewing though.

Toomuch I loved your blog post, especially this bit possibly sentimental, but that might just be drunk I do love a bit of dark humour, it's a comfort and a blessing. You are a very smooth writer.

Flump That's so good about you showing your excitement, and so cute that your hubby almost stopped the car. I take it that it was a pleasant shock . I've always considered myself to be a happy person outwardly but noticed that over the years that people weren't smiling at me like they used to or they weren't as chatty, I put it down to age and busy lives but i'm now wondering if it was me, that I was giving off some sort of bad scent because lately people are smiling at me again and today three people who a month ago would have just walked by with a quick 'hi' have stopped for a chat and said it's been lovely to see you. And, my OH held hands with me the other night when walking through town, he never does that! I like it though. Do you actually feel like you're changing into someone better? I know I do and it's wonderful.

Treacle I think I am, actually, and it is kind of exciting, kind of weird too. I've told myself (and been told) my whole life that I'm a certain kind of person - stressy, a worrier, hard work - but now I'm thinking perhaps that's not 'me' at all . And I'm getting some real big whooshes of feeling happy, ecstatic even, and so full of love for DH & the DC and my friends - as in not just thinking it in my head but feeling it in my whole body. Does that sound a bit crazy?

She did know, but didn't know which ward or what for. I've just arrived home, my op began about 24 hours ago, it's great to have this excruciating pain gone (gall bladder or mother? ;)) but have obvious usual issues and post op pain, soreness and a few litres of CO2 going around...

On another note, whilst under they "stole"! my hospital pj bottoms and the expensive underwear DW got me as a good luck charm! Recovery nurse no idea and my bottom half bare!

treacle

Your mother has trained you since childhood to serve her and her alone. Your needs and wants to her mean nothing and this is also why now adult children of narcissists find it very hard to have or to impose boundaries. They've been trained or taught not to have any for themselves.

LC does indeed often lead into NC.

I would agree that your mother is building up into doing something really nasty. These people after all are masters of, "come closer so I can hurt you again". Be very careful of both her and her enabler of a H.

It doesn't sound crazy to me Flump It sounds like you've broken free of the shackles and found freedom xx

I'm going to do my very best to protect myself from my mother Attila, thank you for the reminder about the come closer, I'll be watching out for that. I'm taking on board everything that's being said and I'm watching Richard Grannon's Videos, thank you toomuch, armed with all this insight and support I don't feel so alone.

Aw thanks Treacle - I don't feel like I've broken free yet because I'm still spending a lot of time thinking about it all and what her next move will be - but I'm getting there I suppose 🙂

Morning!

Flump I'm really glad you like the blog! Really happy to hear that emotions are coming back for you, too. And I've just seen your new post - I'm really glad you're accessing the positive emotions, that's awesome.
One interesting thing to notice is whether there's a particular emotion that doesn't come back for you easily - I think a lot of people have difficulty accessing sadness or anger, one or the other depending on how they reacted as children and things like that.

treacle
I get a feeling of impending doom and I never know why, it just appears from nowhere

Emotional flashback! That really sounds a lot like an emotional flashback - it comes from nowhere, and you try to find a reason for it in the here and now but it doesn't make any sense.
I'm glad you're enjoying Grannon's videos - he's really good, isn't he?

Ste I hope they have you on the good painkillers that's a shocker with the pants, bloody hell. Although now you mention it I have no idea what happened to the clothes I was wearing when I was in labour... got prepped for surgery, never saw them again.

Today I'm finally accepting the fact that I have persistent high(ish) blood pressure, and deciding what to do about it. I don't have the healthiest lifestyle - overweight mostly, I'm still reasonably fit - I was hoping to tackle that after I had a bit more recovery, but I don't think it's going to wait. Doctors are a real challenge for me - my mother wasn't the full Munchhausen's by proxy, but she did love a doctor's visit and I had a lot of investigations for this and that as a kid and I really, really don't like having contact with the medical profession. I'm thinking to give myself maybe a month or 6 weeks of living healthily and see if the blood pressure comes down on its own.

my mother wasn't the full Munchhausen's by proxy, but she did love a doctor's visit

It's interesting you say that - I've always wondered if my M had been bordering on that when I was little - I was kept off school and taken to the doctors for the slightest symptom - I vividly remember her crying in front of Doctors and family and talking about how she doesn't know how she'll cope if there's something terrible wrong with me - scared the shit out of me at the time obviously. But strangely, when I did develop a full blown eating disorder it was completely ignored - and actually she was complicit in keeping it hidden. Is that a narcissist thing?

Thank you all for the insights on emotional flashbacks. These pages are so helpful. I have those too - the first time was in my late twenties and the effects lasted some time because the event that triggered it lasted a while too, and I was eventually treated for depression. I've since realised that when I get the 'doom' feeling it's because I am in a situation where I feel I've done something or am feeling something 'wrong' or 'bad' and am 'not allowed' to tell anyone one about it.

The only way out of it I've found so far is that I DO need to tell someone how I'm feeling. But after reading all the posts this morning I have also found this Pete Walker link. I think I'm going to write the some of the steps at the bottom of the article in my diary somewhere and have it open next time I speak to DM on the phone. Just so that if she makes a trigger remark I have some coping strategies.
pete-walker.com/flashbackManagement.htm

toomuch I forgot to say - I read your blog too and loved it.

Flump your eating disorder isn't going to reflect well on her as a parent, and might also involve some hard work on her part in terms of helping you recover, whereas taking you to the GP for other stuff makes her look good and caring and makes other people feel sorry for her because she has a poor sick child. It sounds consistent with narcissism to me, and all about her, not you (sadly).

Sorry I'm not keeping up at the moment with replying to posts, I'm a bit behind in everything at the moment. I'm reading all of it though and sending you all my thoughts and

Thank you all so much for your comments about my situation with getting my stuff back. It was so validating to hear and has helped me feel stronger that this is something I need to deal with. I am going to think about it over the weekend and possibly try raising it next week.

I've got another tricky one, much more trivial though.

Can't give much context but basically in the family media group, I was blatantly dumped by my mother in favour of my golden sibling about something. Unusually, I called them out on it I got a pretty rude dismissive reply (speaking about me in the third person to the rest of the group for example). Then this morning, an apology just to me. But she has changed the facts and given a different interpretation of what happened.

What do I do? Accept it and move on? What if I was wrong and her interpretation was right, or at least a valid explanation for her reaction last night? Should I pursue the outrage?

I felt angry last night but now I feel like my process has been interrupted and now I just feel guilty. I feel really sick :(

Sorry, I feel like this is such a silly thing to post.