"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Oh Flump and answers makealist just a big hug to you. I know that feeling so well. Tearful now.

But isn't it a great achievement to look on yourself with empathy and love. For most of my life I looked on those same photographs with my parents eyes and just saw something deficient and disappointing looking at myself. It's nice to lay their view of me aside

Hi everyone, hope you're all doing OK. Sounds like lots of wonderful epiphanies and lightbulbs going on! I also find the 'emotionally available button' really interesting, great way to look at if.

I feel like I don't know what to post... I'm still doing lots of thinking and reflecting, but don't feel like anything ground breaking. I'm wading through Toxic Parents which is very thought provoking. I have had some friendly and totally ok contact with all my family members in the last week which has made me feel quite confused and wondering if I'm making a mountain out of a molehill.

Hi Chest it's good you had some good contact with your family, but don't let it make you doubt yourself and your feelings. I don't know you at all but am 100% sure you're not making a mountain out of a molehill!

These abusive people would never manage to have 'relationships' with anybody of they were horrible all the time - they can appear nice when they want to be - just enough to keep us reeled in usually (in my experience anyway).

My narc mother has now been giving me the silent treatment for almost three weeks. Long may it continue because I am working really hard on myself at being detached and assertive for the next time I have to see her.

Thank you flump! You're right, and I think that's partly what is so confusing - it's not black and white, they are both nice and not nice. While I would like to get to a point of enjoying the niceness, and flicking off the not-niceness, at the moment it feels really difficult to get my head round.

Have you read Toxic Parents? I just read a bit where it talks about non defensiveness. Basically instead of being defensive and explaining yourself - and giving them something to approve of or condemn - you just reply neutrally not giving yhem anything. Stuff like

• oh?
• that's interesting.
• you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

Just thought I'd mention it in case you've not come across it, to add to your toolkit!

Yes I've got it but not read it properly yet - I had a quick skim and tbh the chapter near the end about confronting them scares me a bit - I'm not ready for that yet

Im working my way through 'The peaceful daughter's guide to separating from a difficult mother' atm - I'm about half way through and it's hard going but I hope it's helping me. Tbh i bought it because it was only a couple of quid on the kindle but it comes with a workbook that you download & print off, basically getting you to write down your thoughts and strategies etc. Some of it has brought back painful memories, but I'm now on the bit about how to set boundaries and keep them, which is hugely relevant to my situation.

I've now read the first bit of Toxic Parents, before the what to do it about it section. It made sense, but also I felt something was lacking, I can't put my finger on it. My parents interchange being quite nice with points where I feel quite worthless.. In the end I wonder whether it's me not them. But I remember certain things that I know weren't ok. Now, I read the book and think of my rage that comes out of nowhere, that it's so easy to take out on my toddler. I struggle myself and hate that, and am going into therapy because of it. If I don't, I'm afraid I'll be a different kind of wrong parent, not the same as my parents but no better and possibly even worse. I can't read Toxic Parents without thinking about whether I can overcome the same human weakness, and whether I have the right to judge anyone else, including my parents. Don't know.

champagne what jumps out at me from what you've just said is that k you have a problem with 'rage' - and that you hate it and that you are going into therapy because of it.

My understanding of toxic parents (narc mother in my case) is that they refuse to recognise that they are at fault and have a problem. They blame their children, and would never seek help for themselves - because thet won't ever accept responsibility. If our parents had 'hated' the way they behaved and had sought therapy, we probably wouldn't be dealing with the fallout now.

You are not a toxic parent - you are somebody recognising the effects your toxic parents had on you and doing your best to change it

champagne, I agree with flump. There is a book by Dan Siegel where he says that research says it's not about whether you had a good or bad childhood - it's about the extent to which you have come to terms with and done the work on your childhood, that is determines how you are as a parent yourself. So you it sounds like you are doing the right thing recognising it and working on it and getting therapy

My mum doesn't really do nice, I don't mean she's horrible or nasty but her default mode is moany / bitter. I can't remember the last time I saw her smile, she looks permanently displeased. Out of all the things I've said so far that's been hard to admit, I don't know why.

It's my son's birthday soon and I normally invite my parents to come out for a meal with us to celebrate but I'm not doing this year. It's not been a conscious decision on my part (my son just assumed it'd be the three of us so wanted a curry - mum hates curry) and thinking about it, I'm confident they'll not even notice. It suddenly dawned on me today that when my son, he's their only grandchild, was at uni they didn't contact him once. They didn't visit, phone or even text him. When I say it dawned on me, I mean I was always aware that they didn't do any of those things but it's just dawned on me just how odd that is, especially seeing as mum insisted on seeing me at least twice weekly.
It's like the more I wake up the more I don't even recognise her as human, never mind a mother and grandmother.

Champagne Flump and Drawers are spot on about the self awareness, you know that what's happening doesn't feel right so you must have awareness and you must care xx

About the judging, you don't have to judge, you can just say (or think) nah, I didn't like that or that was bad or I hated that, without judging or justifying, excusing or reasoning. You are allowed to have a totally guilt free opinion on things that have affected you, it's your right.

Sorry champagne, I meant to add - so the point of the Dan Siegel thing is that your past doesn't have to define you - just because your parents were a certain way doesn't mean you are condemned to do the same, or to be stuck in a way of doing things. It's about doing the work, not what was done, if that makes sense. Also I wondered if the rage you mentioned could be to do with the stuff that you need to work through? Certainly I think that's the case for me.

Treacle your last sentence (guilt free, it's your right) has really struck me and I'm going to ponder that one some more.

Chest Guilt has been a minefield for me, my mother's parents used religion in such a way that it really did put the fear of God in me, and my mum reinforced it. It was also twisted to the extreme to the point that I was led to believe that even having bad thoughts meant I was being evil. Consequently I trained myself to not only look for the good in people but also reasons and excuses for their badness.

It's taken many many adult years for me to realise that it's easier, and it's quite okay, to trust my own spider senses and go with my gut instincts and say/ think that I don't like someone or I don't like what someone has done and leave it at that. No one close to me as judged me on my judgement, they might offer that they don't see it like that and that's okay too because that's their opinion and they're entitled to it, but I've also been allowed to be entitled to mine. Most of the time now I don't even share my opinion, like if someone in a shop was rude to me, I'll just think 'Oooh rude woman/man' and that's that, I don't remark on it to anyone whereas before I'd be juggling so much with taking it personally and guilt because I'd feel conflicted about how it made me feel that I'd feel compelled to talk about it and ask what other people thought.

I think the best part for me is the 'leave it at that'. It means I'm not taking up head space trying to reason with my own gut or my own experience when I'm not even armed with the full facts. The only facts I have are those I have been given or experienced myself and if that's all I'm getting then that's what I'll base my opinion on. Of course at some later stage I might get given more 'facts' and if/when that happens they can be taken into account but even if those new facts put a whole new take on things I still have no reason to feel guilty because I didn't know, no one made me aware.

On the subject of guilt, this could have been a biggy. My path to enlightenment as I call it kickstarted when I increased my hours at work a few months ago. It was partly forced because my employers were changing their office hours so as to be available later in the day and partly my choice because I could have said no. My new working pattern, although it's more hours, is actually easier for me because of the routine. Getting this past my mum was an absolute nightmare, it was far bigger than it should have been. I felt compelled to explain it to my mum because it meant I'd not be able to see her twice a week, it'd have to be the once. She acted as though I was cruelly dumping her.

Anyhow, part of my reasoning for increasing my hours was because it'd give me the chance of a decent pension when I retired. Id have thought that my parents would have seen this as sensible, they both have good healthy pensions, enough for a couple of cruises a year and a good life. Mine, as it was, would have been a struggle to pay the bills. I was made to feel selfish so to compensate I suggested that I'd save the extra wages so I could retire early (at 60) and look after them (they'd be 80).

Long story short, I've decided I'm not going to do that and not only do I not feel guilty, I feel as light as a feather. I could go on about how they never cared for me etc but it's not about that, it's about how I'm discovering that they are not my responsibility. They have always planned for their retirement, they have plenty put aside, so why on earth I felt like I had to save every penny for 14 years to then survive on £5,000 a year so I could run around after them (because that's what it would have come down to) is beyond me but that's what feeling guilty would have done to me. The absolute stupidest thing about it is, I don't have anything to feel guilty about.

I don't feel guilty, I don't feel selfish, I don't feel much of anything apart from 'normal' with a touch of rational and sensible. That's a huge breakthrough for me.

Flump you don't need to confront your parents if you don't want to. I can imagine some people will find it useful but it depends on what your parents are like, among other things - I think most of us are going to just get a load of lies and gaslighting if we try and bring it up. Different maybe if you're talking to the enabler, or there were substance abuse issues or SS involvement that make it hard for them to deny.
Whether you decide to confront them or not, it's a useful exercise in listening to your gut feelings. What you want to do is probably the right thing to do.

champagnecyclist
my rage that comes out of nowhere
That makes me think emotional flashback. Also, is it possible that you're getting irritated by a bunch of small things (pretty much par for the course with a toddler to look after!) and the anger ends up exploding out of you? Because of your childhood experiences, you may be very good at ignoring your angry feelings so you're not aware of building irritation till it erupts in rage?

The Angry Book might be interesting for you - it's about the disadvantages of repressing anger, and makes the case for expressing anger honestly.

TBH I think this is one of the hardest things to accept about abuse, and breaking the cycle of abuse - the abuse has left many of us with reactions that make it really easy to become abusive, if we don't fight hard not to be. Hairtrigger anger, and the fact that when you are angry, you've got this mental menu of abusive actions that you experienced as a child that you have to ignore.
It would almost be enough to make me feel sorry for my mother, who presumably had the same issues - but when my mother gave into her rage she did it with great relish and the belief that she was entirely justified, a righteous wrath that it would never have occurred to her to apologise for. It would have been hard for her not to be abusive, but she didn't need to embrace abuse with such gusto, you know what I mean?

toomuch thank you - my father died a long time ago so it would just be mother to confront, but I am certain there would be no point - any little thing I have ever tried to bring up and discuss about the past has always, without fail, been denied, twisted around or just ignored and then lead to weeks of silent treatment. Then whatever I've said has been stored away in her mind to throw at me in the future as 'proof' of what a terrible person I am.

I will never confront her - it' fuel to the fire. She is currently on a 'silent treatment' with me which, going on past experience, is due to end soon with her breezing in like nothing ever happened. But this time is very different (for me) and I am not going to continue things they way they were. I am practicing calm, assertive and non-engaging communication in my head atm, I just hope I can keep it together when I see her and not get angry, or even worse, get upset, which she would love.

Flumpaargh god sorry you already said about your dad.

Don't be too hard on yourself if you do get angry or upset. She's been training you for this shit since you were a tiny little kid.
Just make sure she doesn't end up with a new key!

toomuch no need to apologise - this is a busy thread atm!

Whatever happens she is not not not getting a key - I keep telling myself the MN mantra that 'no is a complete sentence'...

Treacle yy to religion, and the idea that bad thoughts are bad. I don't know how much of this is from my parents and how much from other influences. I suppose I have always blamed myself as I have OCD and I think it's my fault for my compulsiveness guilt stuff. I want to say more but I feel worried that it could be identifying. Suffice to say I can relate!! I also can relate to the need to tell someone else about tiny little incidents. I have always found it hard to just leave something and not obsess for ages afterwards about it.

That sounds HUGE For you about not retiring early. Fantastic

I haven't checked in here due to being on holiday and things being crazy with work but I had to come in with this cracker.

The mother randomly sent me a barrage of abuse tonight, totally out of the blue and with no supporting evidence.

My brother turns 21 next month. I'm also going to NYC on holiday next month. My mum heard that I bought new glasses and went off her head about how disappointed she is that I won't be buying my brother a birthday present. Apparently it occurred to her this evening that I will be too focused on saving for my holiday to bother with DB, and this disappoints her.

WHAT? She has pulled his 'realisation' out of her arse. Nobody has even once mentioned not getting him a gift. I would NEVER not get my brother a birthday gift, and I'm heartbroken that she thinks that I'm such a selfish prick that I'd do that.

Anyway, I called her out quite calmly and rationally. I told her that I'm not sure I want to see her for my birthday next week and now she's crying victim, mumbling about how she'll get the train through anyway and I can just pick up my card at the station if I want

Thank you everyone, your replies have given me food for thought. About the rage / emotional flashbacks / irritated and angry reactions - that sounds plausible.. I don't want to self analyse too much or say it's all my parents' fault and I'm not responsible for my own behaviours, but what you have put makes a lot of sense x

Have just read most of the Emotional Flashbacks article - wow, I could highlight/underline the first three quarters of that as relevant. I didn't know this stuff before, so very useful.

Hi again. All of these conversations are awesome !!!

I went for my preliminary session with my counsellor yesterday. I have booked the first of the paid sessions. It was very good, apart from realising how batshit my family sound. Bit embarrassing to talk about really, and very sad.

I wanted to say that she gave me the choice re how to proceed, also that we didn't have to meet weekly [ so I can and will afford that] . I'll be doing a lot of 'homework' So counselling doesn't have to be mega expensive , if you look around. Also, the work I've done on here , plus the reading, means that I am au fait with terminology and have gone into it knowing what I want to head towards/ what I don't need to rehash. Very grateful to you all that I've been able to - and will continue to - get support and food for thought, here. Otherwise I'd be spending the sessions working through the past, rather than trying to move forward.

Incidentally [ surprise , surprise ??], when I got home there was a text from DM, basically trying to manipulate me as she knew I'd been to see someone. Fishing for info, and trying to make me feel sorry for her. After all this time ! I said No [ the complete sentence - I love that ! ] , I wouldn't be discussing it. So she said that I must be very upset. I said no, I was excited about moving forward. Silence. I await the flying monkeys ?

champagne I think it's all good - you can seek to understand what drives your behaviour without giving up responsibility for it, in fact it's part of taking responsibility - it's much easier to control the way you express your emotions if you know where they're coming from.

If the emotional flashback stuff made sense to you, you might like his book: CPTSD: From Surviving To Thriving. I love this book.

amused if that was my mother I think the reasoning would go

1. Jealous that daughter has money to spend on herself
2. I am the perfect mother, so my daughter must have done something bad to make me feel like this about her
3. Oh I know, she must be planning not to buy a present for her brother's 21st

Well done for calling her out on it!

My fucking fucking mother is doing my head in. Fucking fucking hell I want to scream. She is emotionally manipulative, is playing my sister off against me in regard to how much she is doing to help against how little I am doing (we are low contact because of a falling out a few weeks ago). My god she won't let me ignore her, she constantly sends me massively long messages full of guilt ridden sub text. I swear she is making me ill.

In the few weeks I was allowed not to be in contact I started sleeping again at night, didn't have to wear my mouth guard due to clamping my jaw and was happy. Now it's her birthday, we are back in contact and my stomach is a knot, I'm hardly sleeping and I can feel I'm clamping my teeth together again. I'm starting to hate the lot of them.

sleep

I'm no expert but I feel your pain

Clearly you are in a much better place when you're not in contact with her - and yes she is making you ill. Something I'm working on atm for my own mental health is putting some boundaries in place so I can feel safe from my M invading every bit of my life whenever she decides to. It sounds like you could benefit from doing the same.

Could you block her number? Or even just get a cheap payg, tell her the number for that one, and just keep that phone for her and your usual one for everyone else? Then you can stick it in a drawer and only get it out and check messages when you feel up to it (or not at all)...

And it doesn't hurt at all to get your anger out. Is there somewhere you can go to have a good scream without the police turning up? . I've done it in the car before. Hope you're ok anyway.