"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thank you toomuch I think in time I'm going to see the funny side of the bin victory.

I've not had any experience of the writing but I'll keep an eye out. How can anyone not read DVD though

Flump I'm not actually sure if you can reason with narcissists, I'm sure I read that they don't think/feel like us. I darent offer advice because I'm not savvy enough to deal with them but I feel for your struggle and pain, I hope you find answers

Thanks Treacle

I understand what you mean about a wake up call. I feel like I almost wish i'd not started to see everything about my M so clearly - now I know it I can't 'un' know it and I will struggle to be around her at all.

And I do think you're right - I'm wasting my time trying to reason with her. But I can't just pick up where we left off acting like everything's ok after she said such a disgusting thing - and in front of my DC . But that's what she'll try to do.

I'm honestly no expert Flump but in my view your possible response is still trying to reason and justify. Angry at what she said. That she had cheek. Etc
My approach is more to just make a statement and make it just about you. I don't want to spend time with you anymore. We've tried to talk sbout it before but those conversations just go in circles. So don't want to discuss it or argue.

The point is to remove yourself from a relationship not to extend or fix one.
I remember on going nc with my family. They had just treated me appallingly. When I was angry and upset about it they started to twist it into being about a whole range of things about me bringing up my whole life.
I just wrote that i found this all disingenuous and I would not be engaging jn it. No reasons, no arguing - just done. I don't know of it was the right way to do it but it was hugely freeing not to try to get them to see my point of view etc anymore. That freed me up to spend time on relationships that were healthy.

Hello again!
Took some time away as I was struggling a bit with the amount of time I was thinking about my mother (& she lives very nearby, so I need a bit of time out!).
But I realise I need to sort a lot of stuff out, so I've come back to where it feels safe... However, I don't really know where/how to start. I worry that I've really kept the lid on for so long that once I start really facing up to how I feel, I'll get all out of control & wobbly.
I'm on ADs (fluoxetine) for anxiety & depression & am being referred to a mindfulness based CBT group & have lovely friends & a fab DH but I feel like there's all this stuff festering about my mother & I don't know what to do with it. I really feel like it's time to just let it all go & move on (I'm in my late 40s) but I'm not sure if that'll work! Or do I need to deal with it somehow? I won't change her or her narc ways, I can't go NC as she lives opposite us - any thoughts? x

I have t posted on these threads for ages but I'm actually shaking and weepy here. My LC mum turned up at the door with a household safety feature for me. I had told her on Wednesday on the phone I already had one and didn't need one but she bought it anyway and appeared with it.

It sounds like nothing but it's brought back all those feelings of me not being good enough or mature enough to look after myself that she put there. I'm 40 with several degrees a long marriage 2 older kids and a job where part of the time I advise on national policy, and I represent my country at a sport, I can keep us alive I promise! But I'm not good enough.

I'm just not fucking good enough.

I've held firm and she's taken it back but with the usual emotional blackmail of I'll just worry about you (implied how can you do this to me) so I'm sat here feeling like utter shit because I didn't want something I said I didn't need and refused to let it be forced on me.

And anyone else I speak to will say how mean I am upsetting an old lady and I should just have said thanks and taken it, she was trying to do a nice thing.

I don't want to upset her. I love her. But and I don't mean this to sound vain, if I had an adult child like me I would be so proud. I'm just not good enough though.

toomuch you made me smile with the whole handwriting thing. My mother thinks she's the authority on every one else's handwriting. I remember her going through each of my siblings once saying whose was best and worst. Mine is terrible apparently. She used to act a bit obsessed about it.

wannabe in my experience, at some point you will have to take the lid off. I would recommend doing this in counselling with a counsellor you trust. I found things got worse before they got better so pick a time when you don't have much going on and you can avoid seeing her as much as possible. I still have times where I'm angry or memories just pop into my head but generally I can handle it all better now.

rj your reaction to your mum would seem strange to someone just seeing this one incident. However, it's not about her bringing you something because she's worried. She's ignored what you have said about not needing it and the insinuation is that you're incapable of running your own life or looking after yourself. In that context, your reaction makes perfect sense. There is nothing wrong with standing your ground.

Just came on here to have a moan today so feel free to ignore. DFIL is seriously ill at the moment and we're not sure if he's going to get better. It's taking it's toll on DH, obviously. I'm trying to be strong for him but it kills me to see him cry. 3 year old knows something is not right so she's extra clingy. Keeps needing to sit on me, cuddle me etc and got really upset when I left her at pre school yesterday. The baby is teething so hasn't been sleeping well, last night was quite bad. DH is working today and I've got no energy so we haven't done much all day. Feeling like a crap parent. Also the house is a complete state. Was thinking earlier, because I like to torture myself, how nice it would be if I had the kind of mother I could call to come round and help. Just to watch the kids while I get some stuff done, or make me a cup of tea and tell me I'm doing ok. Not at my best today. Anyway I now need to go a pretend I'm on rides at pepper pig world (guess where we've been recently) will be back later.

Sleepy I know what you mean about how nice it would be to have a cosy mum - mine is always asking to help but it then gets all complicated & about her so I always make an excuse why not. It's just not worth all the drama. So I just content myself with being that mum to my DCs. & trying to remember to mother myself sometimes too! x

Hope everyone has had a peaceful calm day.

Sleepy I hope things are better this evening. It sounds like a lonely and draining place to be, trying to hold everything together for everyone.

I haven't posted for a couple of days. Not really known what to say. Still feeling sad and just a mess of feelings about everything. Feel ashamed of mistakes I have made and contributed to the toxicity. Feel rejected. And confused. And really resentful and angry, which I find very uncomfortable.

chest had a better evening thanks. How are you feeling today? With regards to your actions in the past, you would have been conditioned as a child to behave in a certain way. I can only speak for myself but have definitely contributed to my toxic family dynamics. Not on a conscious level but because I thought this is the way you are meant to behave. I sometimes have to put a lot of thought into how I need to act in certain situations as my natural instincts are not always correct. There is no need to feel ashamed, I'm assuming you have recognised where your behaviour was somewhat destructive and have changed it. That's something to be proud of.

Keep getting flashbacks lately, not sure why. Been looking into CPTSD and think I may have it. I was watching something on FB earlier and there were suddenly load of trolls making comments. Not sure why but it really scared me, the comments were aimed at the video and were in no way connected to me but it left me feeling really uneasy and ashamed. I've always had these strong feelings of fear and shame in situations where I'm not actually in any danger . Anyone else had this?

Sleepy thanks, that really helps.

I can't remember your situation - are you seeing a therapist at the moment? If not, might be worth considering? In answer to your question, yes I get that! Usually there is some kind of trigger - sometimes something tangible and easy to spot, sometimes it's as vague as the general vibe of something. Do you think the specific comments set off alarm bells for you emotionally? Emotional flashbacks might also be something for you to look into?

I just wanted to leave this here in case it is helpful to any of you: outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/medium-chill

That's a great link - thankyou! I've started approaching my contact with my mum in exactly this way recently so it's good to know ghat I'm always g the right lines! Also realising that it's an actual method rather than just me not really engaging makes me feel less guilty for not buying into all her nonsense!

Oh typos!!! Where's an edit button when you need it?!

sleepy
Anyone else had this?
Yes, and it sounds like what I understand an emotional flashback to be. I often get it from seeing people being aggressive online, particularly if it looks like they're being deliberately obtuse.
I had a real strong emotional flashback of fear in IKEA at the weekend - standing at the checkout. No idea what triggered it but I can imagine, as a kid, there must have been loads of times I got chewed out in the supermarket queue... sleepy, I've been following Richard Grannon's talk on feeling the feels and I find now that these flashbacks more have the flavour of real emotions than that sort of characteristic toxic shame and fear mixture. And that makes them much less unpleasant, even though sometimes they are more intense. Have you read Pete Walker's book - not the CPTSD one, the other one - The Tao of Fully Feeling? It's all in there.

Hope everyone is doing okay today xx

The handwriting might be a 'thing'. I haven't got siblings but my mum's mum (my nana) used to be very judgey about the handwriting of her grandchildren purely from our Christmas cards to her. I was the eldest but not the neatest so I was made to try to extra hard by my mum when writing her card out. I must have had the rebel in me because I clearly remember thinking in my head that it was a stupid thing to judge us on so I'd not really make an effort. It did get brought up a lot though, too much for comfort.

I've had another epiphany! [Grin] It suddenly hit me yesterday that it doesn't actually matter if people don't like me. There was no deep or meaningful justification of why I suddenly thought that, I wasn't thinking about it and I'm not having issues with it, it just popped in my head and for some reason I feel ten tonnes lighter.

I think it might be linked to me being conditioned to appease my mother, and as a side effect I've tried to appeased pretty much everyone who has come in my path. I feel that I've been so desperate to feel some sort of love that I've sought it off every Tom, Dick & Harry and especially, maybe, those that didn't automatically take to me. I'm thinking (hoping) maybe that now I've stopped placating her that maybe I've turned that switch off full stop. I really hope so because even though I didn't realise I was doing it I feel like a burden has been lifted.

Toomuch I have awful flashbacks at check out queues, very confusing ones. For a change they are about my dad, not my mum. He used to stand behind me and push the inside of the back of my knee with the front of his knee and it'd make my leg give way. It wasn't done as a joke, it was done from nastiness. He'd also bark at me 'budge!' or 'shift!' as he did it. I remember wanting to cry, but I wasn't allowed, crying 'didn't solve anything'. I felt very much in the way. The confusing part is that my mum would tell him to leave me alone. She wouldn't comfort me, she'd just tell him and glare.

I get online shopping mostly but even as an adult I've been in queues in shops and felt my leg give way. I hate people standing too close to me too. It freaks me out.

chest I've had CBT, hypnotherapy and counselling. I tend to get so far with it and then I seem to convince myself that I'm fine and everything is better. I think it stems from needing the counsellor to be pleased with my progress and me to be seen as being good at getting better. I know it sounds ridiculous.
toomuch I haven't read anything from Richard Grannon, I'll take a look, thanks.

Treacle
I think it might be linked to me being conditioned to appease my mother, and as a side effect I've tried to appeased pretty much everyone who has come in my path. I feel that I've been so desperate to feel some sort of love that I've sought it off every Tom, Dick & Harry and especially, maybe, those that didn't automatically take to me.

That's like a textbook description of people pleasing codependent. I think your analysis is spot on. I think you will really enjoy this! I had a similar moment of clarity when I went NC with my mother, and suddenly there were a whole lot of other things I just didn't feel responsible for any more. And it's funny, some of the people who used to saddle me with shit jobs just stopped asking me, like without me having to say anything. It was like my "emotionally available" light just turned off.

That was really horrible from your dad. And your mum glaring at him - it's like even when she's sticking up for you, it's still basically about her - she's angry that your dad did something she didn't like, probably about other people seeing or something like that.

sleepy it doesn't sound ridiculous. It's what we do. If you're like me, you feel safe when you're people pleasing. I turn my experiences into funny stories and I can have the therapist in stitches laughing but I've still not really talked about anything that's giving me bother in the here and now. I think we have to just accept that therapy will be slow for us because of that, with lots of false dawns - I think it's still healthier than trying to force it, trying to get deep down really quickly - I've been very unboundaried about how I shared information about myself in the past, which was actually worse.

I love Grannon, I think he's awesome. He's very down to earth, doesn't mince his words. And he's a scouse ex-bouncer who used to have anger management issues. Not the typical trauma guru at all! He's very entertaining to listen to. And he has a way of phrasing and rephrasing things that will sometimes get an insight in under your filters. It's really good.

A quick hello and to say that I recognise everything people are saying. I think that the brain is multilayered and is working at this in the background all the time - and in our dreams. [ Hey, I don't have those -
caught outdoors in my underwear/ shouting at my mother/ worse -dreams any more. Yahoo]
So we get these 'sudden realisations'- they don't change things overnight but they are hopefully bricks that will eventually form a wall [ of health?]. I have become a firm believer that we send out hidden signals - that's why we attract the same types [ possessive/needy but not willing to change 'friends' and partners for me] all the time, despite trying not to. I 'had a word' with a manager last week - not aggressive [or cryptic] but assertively - I think he was stunned ! Bloody hell. It just goes to show that all those books about assertiveness etc are just window dressing. When you FEEL brave that's when they know you're for real. I've spent my life pretending to be calm, braver than I am etc. It only works to a point
Ditto the joke a minute bit toomuch. recognise that one - and I'll have to watch out for that with the therapist. Like me, like me/don't look too closely . Blither, blither. ], knew i was doing it even when i arranged the appointment. Afterwards I think ' god, I must appear a complete idiot'. And sometimes I am -which is actually ok.

Hi - hope everyone's doing ok

I had a sudden urge to do something last night - which I did - and it made me feel great but now I'm wondering if it's slightly nuts... I keep getting flashbacks to things my mother did in the past that seemed strange or just made me uncomfortable at the time but I didn't know why - and now it's all so clear. One time I had to get a costume for a school play (think Alice in Wonderland) at around 10/11. For some reason my mum decided to try my costume on - and as an adult it was obviously very tight and short on her and looked like something from Ann Summers. Anyway she paraded around the house in it with everybody there and me or my sibling took a photo of her posing in it. That photo has been in a family album for years which i now have - and there have been numerous occasions when she has 'accidentally on purpose' shown somebody the photo and told the hilarious story about when 'we' made her dress up ('we' didn't).

Anyway, I don't know if it's just me over analysing or if that sounds weird to you lot? The photo always made me feel uncomfortable, and last night I got it out and realised that if any one photo illustrated 'my mother the narc', that was it. So I took it out in the garden and burnt it until I was left looking at a pile of ashes. And it truly felt amazing

Please somebody tell me there is some sense somewhere in this story and that I'm not completely losing it...

That sounds like a positive step, BadTaste. I've started writing down the things I have flashbacks to, & I'm going to have a ceremonial burning session when I get a chance. I'm glad you felt better afterwards.
My mum periodically decides that she's not getting enough attention & pulls up an illness that she had ages ago which she feels might be about to reoccur... then refers to it in every conversation. And recounts conversations she's had with other people about it. It drives me nutty! It always has to be about her. Even if she asks about anyone else, it's just a route into "Well, when I ... ".
So today I just responded with lots of "oh right" and "ah, I see" and left it at that. Then felt guilty so I took her some lunch. She was sweet about that but then we had to have a long conversation about her possibly reoccurring illness again!
I find the guilt so hard to deal with - I don't want to be horrid to her but she's not an easy person to be around (think Harry Potter dementor...) but then she is my mum... I just go round & round in circles!
It's exhausting!!!

RJ mine used to turn up with food in take away containers every now and then when I had a baby.. But would then go sit in the pub at the end of my road with friends for hours, while I was struggling so much with being a mum on my own, they could have just helped Hoover or something but 'couldn't' because they had 'plans'. So it seemed nice, but made me feel so much more desperate. In the end I decided I just didn't want the food, it made me feel worse.

TooMuch I like the idea of the emotionally available light being switched off, I'm really beginning to believe that who or what we are/were and what we could offer shone like beacon, it certainly explains many of the situations I've found myself in. It's only recent for me but I'm already finding that people are taking me more seriously, I can tell by the way people are taking notice. I've not changed my every day views but maybe it's because I'm saying them differently or with more confidence, I'm aware that I've stopped explaining and justifying my thoughts and decisions so it could be that.

Flump I like your ceremonial burning. The photograph is symbolic of your past, hunting it out is symbolic of your awakening and the burning is symbolic of the line you have drawn so no, I don't think you're losing it.

Badtaste- I think the ritual thing is very normal and actually very effective. It gives you something tangible to focus your thoughts and feelings on. I've burnt stuff too.
But thinking about my wedding is the same. Sometimes if marriage or feelings towards dp feel hard to access it can call up the memory of getting married and it makes everything more real and clear. Same thing:a ritual to remind you of a decision - even if that decision is to let go of something.

My aunt gave my DM a load of photos of when some of us were young. One of the wake up calls for me was to look through them and realise that I am not smiling in ANY of them. The biggest group re me were of when I had a really terrible tooth abscess, so had a huge scarf around my face. Much merriment and photo taking. HaHaHa. Oh we did laugh !
I will keep them until I show them to certain people when needed - but after that I've decided I'll burn them. That little girl was me but I don't want to be that unhappy child any longer than necessary. I want to say symbolically that I'm sorry, but I need to start saying goodbye ? Poor little girl. My heart bleeds for her . And now I feel like crying. But she is in the past. I grew up. I always knew that adults had the power to call the shots . I couldn't wait to grow up. And found that [generally], that's true.

Thank you all .

Make YY to the 'poor little girl' feelings . I look at pics of myself - although there aren't many - and I look a lot like DD does now - apart from that she looks glowy and full of giggles in every single one - and I don't. I think of how confident and self-assured she is - and I do feel proud but also really sad that the little girl I was didn't ever feel that way.