"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Atilla no need to apologise, you are spot on and it's just hard to hear the truth sometimes

You are really helping me clarify things in my head

Makealist I get where you're coming from with the second teenage-hood, must admit I'm feeling rebellious too. I'm a little tinged with guilt about it (and I haven't even done anything yet!) but I'm trying to push that feeling away rather than let it take over. I want to enjoy more of being >>> and less of >>>

treacle every thing you said about not wanting to upset people resonates with me. Growing up it felt like I wasn't allowed to make mistakes. I didn't understand that if you did something wrong or 'bad' that it didn't necessarily mean you were a bad person. I struggle with criticism now as I think that anything putting me in a bad light makes be a bad person. I used to defend every action, no matter what, mainly out of fear that I wasn't perfect. Thinking about it, this is exactly what my mother does. I find it really freeing to be able to admit when I'm wrong, apologise and make things right. I can accept that I make mistakes, although I still try not to.
TheWorst one thing that helps me when it's all getting a bit much is to watch a film. Doesn't matter if it's complete trash as long as you can get into it. Reading or some other hobby that can completely occupy your brain would probably also help. Giving your mind a rest from the thoughts for a while can make you feel a lot better. Dealing with this pain can be a lot to take sometimes.

Theworst I'm sorry you're crying, I hope they are cleansing tears and give you some relief.

In my experience yes, black marks or slights as I call them are stored for years. My mum is 70 and the other week was going on about something her sister said to her when she was six! She also bears grudges against her whole school for calling her freckle face, her other sister for telling tales on her for meeting a boy and the whole world for never once in all her life telling her they like her shoes.

I myself gave her a difficult birth, I had the cord wrapped round my neck, and it's been pretty much downhill from there. When I was a child I felt responsible for ruining her figure and her social life.

She tends to tell me specifics about what other people have done 'at' her and I'm guessing she'll be telling other people what I've done 'at' her too. As far back as I can remember she has always 'bitched' about people behind their backs but never addressed them directly. Its usually, if not always, about how they've made her feel. It's like she really deeply festers over things and when she gets the opportunity she gives them payback and justifies it, again behind backs not directly, as being just deserts for something they did years ago.

Sleephay I getcha x

I have bad habit of justifying everything, that'll be the equivalent of your defending I think. The thing is, when I hear other people do it I don't think they need to, I'd be happy with a 'oops, I messed it up' rather than the ins and outs of a cats arse that I usually come out with. From now on I'll give an oops, and ill only go on to explain if I'm asked to (by someone reasonable or genuinely interested of course lol).

Has your new way of dealing with mistakes been received well? Xx

As far back as I can remember she has always 'bitched' about people behind their backs but never addressed them directly. Its usually, if not always, about how they've made her feel. It's like she really deeply festers over things and when she gets the opportunity she gives them payback and justifies it, again behind backs not directly, as being just deserts for something they did years ago

Absolutely this. Do we have the same mother?

It's bizarre how neatly my mother 'fits' into standard narc behaviour - and that I've only just realised it

Haven't finished reading the latest posts but wanted to respond to these.

At the moment it feels so peaceful being out of the family mess that I don't want to risk them paying me any attention. At all. Who'd have believed it, after Xmas I was posting how worried I was that I might be cast out. At the moment , I would feel happy to be forever ignored. Weird, eh ? All of my life my anxiety has been because I felt excluded  and couldn't work out why - now I am happy to be 
This is fascinating to me. I too have always been terrified of being excluded. And right now I am where you were at Christmas. Can I ask make how you coped with that fear? How have you filled the gap? It sounds like you are doing brilliantly.

Flump re scapegoat being pushed by narc mother to contact golden child. Yes yes yes! Haven't heard from my dm for a little while, nothing initiated from her. Then a group text reminding us that it was golden child sibling's oh's birthday. And no, she doesn't do that for my dh, and yes they have been together for ages so it's not news, and yes the oh doesn't give a shit about me and is really rude to me in various ways, and yes it was too late for me to have sent a card if I had wanted to so it was setting me up to fail anyway. And no, I didn't contact the oh!! (Unlike previously.) I am constantly getting this, constantly being told golden child needs his family or I should contact him or blah blah blah. In reality GC couldn't care less and is pretty callous and rejecting towards me. It baffles me. It makes me feel like I am failing and not good enough. How is it for you flump?

Treacle and worst Yes, me too for black marks. I don't think I will ever be forgiven for some of the things in my life. I am often seen through a filter based on things that happened many years ago. I find that things I have experienced are twisted so it's all about her. She changes the facts and when I challenge them she's all shock and disbelief - even when it's about stuff that happened to me!

Also yes to the bitching behind people's backs. My family have always done it and I felt it made us special and I'll admit I was a pretty enthusiastic participant. Kind of a bonding or approval thing I think. Feel guilty now that I did, and guilty to my family that I'm not joining in as much, and guilty all round really. It's hard trying not to as it is so ingrained, and I am scared I will be excluded (even more).

Hope everyone is ok today

Hi again. bad taste . My family unfortunately live close together - apart from the doggie DSIS. So I also find it very difficult to meet them on their own. How can I visit someone without visiting them all ? And DM of course. Because she's trying to fabricate a persona of perfect parent , before she dies [ 82] , she is keen to project a together image. So keeps them all on tight leash - abetted by handouts. The only DSIS who seems to have a handle on the issues[ scapegoat carer] seems to want to deal with it by addressing the symptoms rather than the causes [ it appears to me] . "If I'm nice to her, she'll change". I don't believe that. If you're nice, you just get walked over. I've been described as nice all my life ! It's ironic- when I remarried , I/ he were both warned off 'hurting' each other' by friends - because we were 'nice' people . DSIS doesn't want to rock the family boat. Who's to judge ? We shall see which approach works? But it does mean she is effectively blocking my trying to communicate "too emotional etc"

the worst - name change ? You are not the worst. obviously. Please think of this as a necessary process. To being another person. The person you might have been without crap parenting. Have a rest, but don't get too depressed. We're here !

NB I may well name change. I was trying to think of something quickly, before I bottled out, when I joined. Because I thought his would be a young group - mumsnet, not old enough[ by far] to be a granny. Thinking of Wednesday'schild . I was always laughed at - ' ' ' oh look, wednesday's child - full of woe'. Hahaha. So witty
But so true.

Ain't it great that we have generally manged to bring up our kids to feel 'normal'? - whatever that is ?

chest. Pete Walker talks about the bitching. He says that there was so little love doled out by parents that family end up fighting for hierarchy so to speak. Makes sense. I see this in my large family. Not in 'normal ' ones .

i've sat and listened/ argued even - about stuff I've done [with DM] in family groups , as if it wasn't my life . Makes you feel as if you are losing it ? ' Maybe it's me ?' I've read that fabricated memories [ by people who can't remember, so basically fill in the gaps] can seem more real than reality. E.g. alcoholics with memory loss, or those with gaps in memory for other reasons]. Or parents who just haven't got a clue because they weren't interested in the first place. Very strange

Makealist I need to read Pete Walker, sounds helpful. Yes it does make you feel like you're losing it! I have always been told I have such a vivid imagination etc. How are you doing with your process of it all? Lol yes I get you with the name - guess what I was looking at what I chose mine haha.

Makealist I need to read Pete Walker, sounds helpful. Yes it does make you feel like you're losing it! I have always been told I have such a vivid imagination etc. How are you doing with your process of it all? Lol yes I get you with the name - guess what I was looking at what I chose mine haha.

Question.

So one of my key roles is chasing my family, putting the effort in, driving communication etc. I did an experiment the other week which I am repeating this week of not initiating and seeing what happens. Answer is nothing happens, I don't hear from them, and it hurts so badly.

I feel guilty though as they don't know I'm doing this so I feel I am being a bit unfair to expect them to know the rules have changed. I don't know how much of it is that they don't want to speak to me, or just aren't bothered, or whether they do but are complacent about relying on me to initiate it.

I an wondering about actually directly saying to them all something like: I've realised recently that I tend to initiate communication and chase you all, which isn't equal. I am going to stop doing that and adapt what I'm doing to be more reciprocal. I do want to hear from you but I won't chase you any more. So if you want a chat, call me or text me!

Is it too desperate through...? I'm also a bit scared that it will make DM angry or dismissive. Bit scared to rock the boat even though I'm not really enjoying the boat right now. Is it a bad idea?

Hi all, reading some of the last posts, its reminded me of when my dad said he was only ever mean to me ( physical and emotional abuse) because I needed to be tougher. Yes ok. Much like the first hiding I remember from Mum I would have been 5 or less. I was red raw, and hiding under bed covers - all for spilling some sweets. Well my youngest is just a little older - and I could never imagine losing my shit like that!
Does anyone else find that they have "forgotten" really large parts of their childhood? Having kids is definitely what has made me realise just how wrong this all was.

Chest my DSis and I have never got on great - we do on the surface but are not 'close' in an emotional way - we would never confide in each other about anything the way I would do with friends. But the main barrier to having any kind of real relationship with my sister is that my mother is always slap bang in the middle. I can't see my sister without my mum turning up. Maybe that's why my mum hassles me to contact Dsis - it's a way of reeling me in?

And yes Mind I am so with you on not being able to see 'some' family without seeing your mother. My mother is joined to my sister at the hip - she talks about my sister's home as if it is her own. It would drive me nuts if I were her so I don't know how she copes.

Chest re your current situation - personally I wouldn't contact them to say any of that. Surely they already know that you do all the running? And in a way if you contact them to say 'you can contact me next time' you're still doing the running? I know it hurts when they ignore you, but I am starting to realise that when we hurt, these people are the cause and not the solution. They will not stop the hurt, only we can do that by working our our own solutions. And we will get there eventually

Yes, me too for black marks. I don't think I will ever be forgiven for some of the things in my life. I am often seen through a filter based on things that happened many years ago. I find that things I have experienced are twisted so it's all about her. She changes the facts and when I challenge them she's all shock and disbelief - even when it's about stuff that happened to me!
This for me too. Last time I saw my family my DM relayed a story about how I refused to wash when I came back from uni and how she had to force me into the shower for my own good. Its not true at all, I was very confused. Ultimately I figured she'd taken two conversations (one where I don't wash my hair everyday and one where I don't use a particular soap because it gives me a rash), put them together and twisted it into something wildly different. When I realised this and challenged she was incredulous said I'd never had a reaction to any soap when I lived with them I had and mumbled about me needing to wash my hair everyday - I still don't . No apology though.
Seems so stupid written down, but its just one of a lot of things I've noticed.

Oh and I've always been a difficult child which should never be forgotten, so clearly trouble is my domain and always my fault. Well yes I probably was a difficult child - I have ADHD and they chose not to go down a medication route or to access me any other help. I've had to do that as a 30 something adult.

chest. I was in a different place at Xmas, emotionally. This past year has caused me to really start thinking about my reactions to things ...far too emotionally sometimes, especially if I feel abandoned by people I need for support. Cue emotional flashbacks.Then a beloved DN died - and my DM had a bad fall. I couldn't believe that we were all expected to concentrate on DM ! And then the penny dropped - really dropped. "This is weird ".
I think I got caught up in the 'all family coping together' bit - so wanted to stay 'in there'. Couldn't . Never was, never will be. And then I started reading - this thread, books, Richard Grannon . And the relentless thinking, thinking. And I was blocked out anyway, so I've never had to try to avoid them. They lost themselves to me.
Also - the more I thought, the more I realised that some of the others treat me the same as my DM does. Mini- me mums. Learned behaviour or not, that's abuse as well. Or are totally self focussed. So then I got angry. I suppose my answer to coping = read a lot/talk here/find your anger. I feel angry just writing this ----maybe one day, if I'm brave, I'll let it out on them [ god, that would be so good!]. If a bit unimaginable
flump. One of the websites says that the getting in between = triangulation ? Making everything go through them, so that they're always in the loop ? My DM always wants everyone to stay with her/meet at her house/has to pass on all the 'news'? I used to think it was because it's a big family and she couldn't let go of organising, but now I realise it's fear of losing control.Thank god she's not on FaceBook ! [nor me- my DH is though ] . My MIL trolls the family pages and then tells everyone what the others are doing [ plus her opinions about it of course] . As if we can't read.

Mayhem It's so wrong that they excused abuse in the guise of making you tougher, how wrong could they be!

I was informed recently by my mum that she brought me up to be 'independent'. That explains away the emotional neglect, so if being independent means feeling unloved & unloveable then then they did a sterling job. My mum must have a warped idea of independence because I know for a fact I was never allowed to voice my opinion on everything from religion to who I was allowed to be friends with. Some of my strongest and most consistent memories are of her berating my personal choices because they didn't fall in line with hers.

The odd thing is, she claims she created me to be independent yet she sulks and pouts when I make a decision without running it past her. I think she should have decided against having kids and gotten herself a game of Sims instead, she'd be far happier.

Love to all that need it. Xx

treacle My mum did that as well ! She said to me recently that it was a good thing that I had to spend so much time on my own, riding around the countryside on my dad's bike, because it made me independent and gave me my love of nature. Gobsmacked.. I think I was meant to be grateful.

Makealist It's madness how things are twisted to make them sound fabulous parents.

I had a strange mum experience today, it was a new one on me. I'm low contact, only meet in public places (all coincidence that this happens, it wasn't planned). But on purpose I am being terribly boring and uninteresting. Today I was as boring as ever, I had nothing exciting to say, nothing had happened, I was that boring that I was boring myself. In the end I offered up that I was pretty chuffed because I've got one up on the local council, mum's eyes lit up. I explained that rather than pay for one green bin to be emptied this year (we have to pay for our garden rubbish to be taken away), I'd paid for two but the deal for two bins rather than one doesn't take effect until May. I said I'd got one up because even though it's still April I put two bins out and they emptied both of them. Ta daaaa.

Mum looked at me all confused, and was really OTT hamming it up that she didn't know what I was saying. I explained again, slowly and carefully, but was treated as though I'd spoke in another language. She was doing all this exaggerated shoulder shrugging and twisted contorted face and started looking around trying to catch other people's eyes for what seemed like assistance in helping her interpret what I'd said. In the end I just said it doesn't matter, it wasn't that exciting anyway.

Can I please add, I'm confused over how to feel. I don't know whether to feel upset that she found my news so boring that she took to putting on a show, or whether to feel pleased that I'm boring her .

I cant help but feel upset that she so obviously displayed her disappointment in my, albeit not terribly exciting news, in such a churlish manner but I am grateful that my news didn't have more meaning, after all, it was only about garden cuttings. My paranoid me is wondering if she's 'training' me to be more exciting from now on or I'll get more of what I got today.

Just when I thought I'd got a handle on things too. I only mentioned the bins to fill the weird silence. I could kick myself but I suppose it's reminded me of what I'm dealing with. Arrrgh, why can't she be normal and pleased about my bin victory

treacle I think it sounds like your mum is just desperate for some gossip or something she can get emotional about. Pretending she hasn't got a clue what you are saying might then cause you to be annoyed and she can then play the victim. She's probably made a big deal out of it to someone saying how she couldn't understand what you were talking about. I say this because my mum is the exact same. I started being boring about my life a few years ago but if I ever offered any kind of opinion on anything she would immediately disagree and bring it up later on but twist whatever I had said. I've stopped giving her opinions on anything now really.
It's sad really that they can't just be nice but I don't think they have it in them.
Well done on your free bin collection though

Hehe thank you about the bin sleepy, I do love a small victory But thank you more for understanding about the reaction, what you've said has totally made sense and it's made something fit into place.

I've said for years and years that my mum is strange because she relies on other people to entertain her, now you've mentioned that she probably wanted something to get emotional about it's made sense. I can see now that it's the same thing only I worded it clumsily.

I suddenly feel quite sick, I've had all sorts of bad things happen to me and the thought of my own mother getting some sort of gratification from it ... I don't know what to say. It's horrible. I feel like I'm in some sort of parallel universe.

I keep typing things then deleting them then thinking no, type them, tell it as it is, stop feeling guilty - but it's not guilt, it's shame and it's hurt. I feel shame and hurt that my mum is depraved. I know 100% that I'm better off knowing the truth, I've always known deep down that she was different from other mums and I feel a little thankful that I'm not crazy but it hurts like hell.

Gosh, talk about a wake up call.

Treacle she might eventually adjust to you being shit nsupply, but I think they find it deeply unpleasant and stressful when they're not getting nsupply - and while they would probably drop a romantic partner or a friend like a hot brick if they started grey rocking, they've been used to getting nsupply from us for such a long time that it makes it harder for them to give us up. My mother kept coming back - it was like both of us had this ideal in our head of what a mother-daughter relationship was, and we would try and live it for a few days' visit, before I realised again that she didn't want to go on nice trips out and help with the kids and have nice meals together and stuff, and she realised I wasn't going to open a bloody vein of nsupply for her, and then we'd gratefully say goodbye and avoid each other until we'd both forgotten how awful the other one was.

Anyway I think your bin victory is awesome!

Hashi on the ADHD, have you heard Gabor Mate talk about ADHD? Here's a link. He reckons it's to do with childhood trauma.

Hey, just an odd memory here, but has anyone had the experience that their batshit family member claims they can't read their writing? My mother always swore blind that she couldn't read my writing, even if I wrote stuff out in block capitals. Once I labelled up her freesat/DVD/telly connections for her so she could move and disconnect everything without having to try and figure out what cable goes where and I had to get her to write the actual labels because she claimed that when I wrote "DVD" she couldn't read what it said. A very specialised form of gaslighting, I think!

Evening everybody - here's to a good stress free weekend for all of us (if that's possible...).

Well I've had two weeks of no communication with my M - if you don't count us being in the same room for a couple of hours at a family do and ignoring each other

I think she tried to call me an hour or so ago because it was a withheld number - I ignored it. At some point I will have to speak to her, even if I just forget to ignore the phone. When I do is it reasonable to just say 'I'm still shocked about what you said the last time you were here, and that you had the cheek to be pissed with me afterwards. I am not going to tolerate the way you treat me anymore, I have had enough'.

Am I wasting my time and/or giving her what she wants? With all the things I've been remembering over the last couple of weeks I will struggle to be around her at all - I am so angry and sad for the way I've been shat upon for the last forty years