"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@atillathemeerkat thank you for your reply. As to my brothers wedding I think both him and my little sister would be sad if I didn't go and due to it being during term time I fly out on the Friday and fly home on the Sunday so it's only two days. Plus it's her sons wedding so she won't even notice I'm there and I can just blend in. DH has accidentally booked the wrong hotel so we can't stay the same place as them either.

I'm considering not going tomorrow. It's the last week of school holidays and the weather is awful so It'll be a pain getting there and she can have that as an excuse. Plus DS wants a friend over and I want an adult to chat to so I might just do that. I'd rather sit and drink coffee complaining about the price of softplay and how the education system is messed up than how my parents think I screwed my life up. Yeah I've made mistakes and I'm sure I'll make a lot more but I think you're right and facing her will be one of those.

You're right that the SS report was a low blow and they didn't take it any further except for jumping through the routine hoops they have to to complete and close a case asap. There was no fall out for me and my CRB is 100% clear which shows beyond a doubt they didn't take it further because if it was taken seriously I wouldn't be teaching now. I just don't think I want the hassle again because they quite rightly have to take reports seriously.

I am but by bit seeing cracks in the perfect mother I thought I had. Having a child of my own really opened my eyes. I constantly thought it must have been so hard for her to tell me I was ugly, tell me I was stupid, make me cry for hours and physically hurt me for doing something wrong. Now though I can't believe how wrong it all was. My dad actually chose to leave me because his girlfriend only agreed to marry him on the condition he never saw me again... he got married later that year. It's only now I realise that shouldn't have even been a decision he needed to consider. I'm getting there with things by myself but as you say my need to please and make people happy needs professional help. I worry I've passed it on though as my DS is always bringing me things and saying "you're happy now mummy" but I think at two there's still a normal and natural need to please. He's very certain of how to make me happy and that's either a kiss or a chocolate biscuit. Often he eats the latter and then kisses me.

I'm sorry. I don't know why but I feel I should apologise. When I went on a field trip at school I got the award for being the person who apologised for everything 😬 I do just like to keep everyone happy.

@greenjump that's really interesting about the other members of your family. My auntie and mum don't speak. She's cut off all the family and I thought maybe she would be someone to still contact (common enemy type).

Would you be able to trust them? Would it not be a way back in for your mum? You've done it for your children and it's going to be them who she'll try to get back to first I expect. I think going NC means you have to do just that and no blurred lines. You're so brave xx

I hope nobody minds me sneaking on to ask a quick question. Ive long suspected my dad is a narcissist and that is at the route of all the 'issues' i am currently seeking counselling for. One thing makes me doubt this diagnosis though. He isn't overtly nasty or critical of me; it's rather that any situation will be hijacked by him. My current separation = "I don't mind telling you, I've cried tears over this" "I don't want to have to worry about you". He has a very volatile temperament. I remember several occasions growing up of him losing his temper over something relatively minor and smashing objects in frustration. He moans incessantly about his health but won't do anything about it. Over Easter, we go out on a walk and he moaned incessantly about queues at cafe and the cold and his knees. I suggested he carried on walking then whilst we wait for brother to catch up. He strops off and we get home to find him slouched in àrmchair muttering that he's a "mental and physical wreck'". These are just one or two examples, I could go on. There are so many signs of narcissism I see in him but I just dont recognise the overt nastiness I see in other people's experiences? Does that make sense? Am i dealing with narcissm here or something else?

Hi turnip. The definition of narcissism itself is that a person makes everything about themselves. So every conversation gets hijacked. Back to them.
You say that he isn't nasty - but he is covertly nasty, and definitely manipulative. He use whinging to get what he wants, and everyone has to fall into line. Or get a huge guilt trip.
Also, you say he's not nasty, but I see the words 'volatile/ losing his temper/smashing objects/strop". Ahem ?
I doubt you'll get him to counselling. He probably is lacking in self awareness. And why should he, when he's got you running around after him? If you can afford it, why not go yourself ?
Have you looked at the Richard Grannon, lifecoach, videos on You Tube ? All about narcs and how to recognise/ deal with them - and yourself.

Thank you! I've read a bit about narcissm but not seen those videos so will take a look. I am going to counselling at moment. I have all the hallmarks of growing up with a narc. Low self esteem, lack of ability to form intimate relationships etc etc. I'm going through a real angry phase with my parents just now, as I begin to realise the damage narcissm can cause. I've realised too that I don't have a close bond with my mum. She has put up and shut up with his behaviour for nearly 50 years 🙄

....And possibly the lack of overtly nasty behaviour is because I never challenge his behaviour 😔

Turnip I agree with what's already been said, and I have to say it does sound quite nasty to me! At best, pretty hard work being around him. I agree with what you said that he might not be as nasty as he could be whilst you're doing what he expects.

Have you looked at the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers website? I know it might not be the right gender but the info is great all the same, especially the long list of characteristics of a narcissist.

Hope you can get counselling sorted

Turnip I agree with what's already been said, and I have to say it does sound quite nasty to me! At best, pretty hard work being around him. I agree with what you said that he might not be as nasty as he could be whilst you're doing what he expects.

Have you looked at the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers website? I know it might not be the right gender but the info is great all the same, especially the long list of characteristics of a narcissist.

Hope you can get counselling sorted

I'm feeling low again today. I realised last night that I've not been coping that well since I properly got into this process. Just not keeping up with life, dropping the ball all over the place, retreating into my shell. I need to do better but it's hard when I feel so crap about all this. It feels a bit like grief. A big sense of loss. And almost disorientation. Who are these people? Who am I? What are these relationships?

I know what you mean about it feeling like grief Chest. I've had a really weepy few days - I've been feeling really sad about my dad dying even though it was years ago. Writing it all down has made me realise he was treated pretty badly by my mother too - so that's made me feel upset for him all over again

I ended up looking through some old family photos last night (probably not the best idea in my current state of mind) and ended up feeling really confused. They brought back happy memories, and in the photos I do look happy, as do my mum and dad. It really confused me - I do have plenty of happy memories, but also lots of shit ones. Can one person be good some of the time but a narc parent also? Can it be something that somebody turns into over time, and gets worse as she gets older?

I can't reconcile the photos I was looking at with the horrible things I've remembered recently

Flump narcissists can be OK to be around if they're getting narcissistic supply - not great fun, but if they're managed OK they can muster up decent behaviour. But then if the slightest thing upsets their massive fragile ego, they'll find the nearest scapegoat to blame for their bad feeling (because everything bad comes from outside of them). Once they've vented their anger, they feel better, and because everything is about them, they expect you to feel fine too. So they go right back to behaving as though nothing had happened. So yes, "normal" times interspersed with crazy rages is par for the course. Of course the normal times are not normal, because you're on eggshells trying not to upset them. I think it's a general thing for children of abusive parents that we start to falsely believe that we are responsible for and can influence our parents' moods with our behaviour - the thing with narc parents is that they will actually come out and tell you everything is your fault.

I think as they get older they have less supply - kids grow up and move out, they retire - so they get nastier.

Long term lurker and have overwhelming sympathy for all who post in this very supportive thread
My narc mum has Alzheimer's for last couple of years, the daily shitstorm from 2DS is never ending
Both are enablers wanting to please mum and point score at all costs ..but I feel it is learned behaviour from our parents /grandparents inability to break from their own childhoods.
Me ( the giver ..peacemaker .. a term handed down very early in my childhood) ( you can now see the pattern)..
now has to referee between 2 very damaged siblings whilst knowing they both slag me off and have done for many many years..
our children ( however much I limit contact now go to same school) this is now manifesting in 2 separate incidents of online abuse from DN2 to my DD1

Trying to protect them from all of their narc behaviour is debilitating..
Found out this evening that our current babysitter ..( we have had 3 in last 6 years now 'can't ' sit anymore.. this has happened twice before and my narc controlling jealous DS has blagged them to babysit her DC only then to find sitter won't sit mine/ ' the questions about you and your DC are too much.. I'm so sorry I can't sit anymore")..
Where do you go without proof...???
I'm at a total loss as now the DS's who have always received the grandparent input above n beyond what I receive or am offered now place the Alzheimer's care of mum firmly at my door..
I have always known my place within this family and moved away as soon as I could only to be drawn back on the promise of support ( sadly believed)!! When we started our own family
It is 10 years now .. still as fucked up as it's ever been except now I'm trying ( failing ) to support and protect my own bright caring sensitive DC's..
I'm a failure both ends really as how does one step away from a now ailing ,vulnerable and fragile but still canny enough to throw the grenade in mum..
In the caring profession btw , not like that makes any difference

Having read back my post .. errors galore😊
I see that it is me and me alone (DH has similar parents so very low contact with both), that can change how I continue.. I just cannot / will not show my 2DD's that this is how families behave because it isn't is it?
We have bare minimum of time with DN2..

Hi all, hope everyone is ok this evening. I've been away from this thread trying to get my head sorted.
So after hearing nothing from my mother for several months and her completely ignoring me at a family party, she rang up out of the blue just before Easter wanting to come round with Easter eggs for my DDs. She acted like nothing had happened, even though I know she had been pissed off at something. No idea what annoyed her around Christmas but wish it would happen more often
sofability you owe your family nothing and it doesn't sound like you get anything from your relationship with them. I would just remove yourself from their orbit and concentrate on your own family. They'll probably start arguing amongst themselves once you are out of the picture.
I know you have DCs but is there any possibility of moving away? It's easier to remove people from your life if there is some physical distance. How does your DH feel about it all?

I have a question about something that happened when I was a teenager and was wondering how those with teens would react. When I was about 15 I used to self harm. My Mum saw all of the cuts on my arm one day and I made up the most pathetic excuse about being scratched by a cat. My arm was covered in cuts and it was pretty obvious that it wasn't cat scratches. She did absolutely nothing, never even mentioned it again. I look at my DDs now and couldn't ever imagine a situation where I would ignore something like this. They are both very young though so don't know if it would be different when they are older.

Hi sleepy it's funny (not haha funny), I was having almost the same discussion in RL yesterday. As a teenager I developed an eating disorder which I obviously tried to hide. I would stash the 'evidence' in cupboard in my room and then sneak it out to the bin when nobody was around. The thing is, sometimes I would forget to get rid of it - then I would remember and panic, but would find it already gone. So my mum knew what i was doing and was getting rid if it herself. But she never said a thing about it.

I do have teens now, and I know with absolute certainty that if I had even an inkling that they had those kind of problems I would be doing everything I could to try and help them. The idea of ignoring it, or making excuses, is just unthinkable

Did you see your mum at Easter then?

Hi all, I'm a long time lurker and infrequent poster on here, and I hope everyone is doing ok on here.

I have had a massive shift in my life of late - mainly induced by my husband having an affair and bringing all manner of things to a head. I had effectively been non contact with my abusive parents for around 3 years - and hadn't seen or spoken to them in 14 months. Last weekend I took a leap and hand delivered ( by the dead of night!) the following letter:

"As I understand it, you often ask Dsis why I don’t make contact with you, or reply to communications etc. The answer is simply that after what can only be described as an abusive childhood I do not want to have any involvement with you or from you.

It is wrong to persistently appear to try to smooth things over. We all know it happened…… and its affected every day of our lives since – the sexual abuse and also the inclination to hit, slap and kick – and speak vile insults on a frequent basis.

As such, please stop communicating with me, and my family. We do not want cards or gifts. We also respectfully ask that you stop making contact whether via text, phone, post – or in person.

Should you continue to make contact I WILL seek legal advice.

I will allow Dsis to make her own choice on the matter – but please stop asking her why I am not in contact with you. We all know the answer.

I would appreciate it if you would respect our wishes"

Currently I am a little surprised but also relieved that we have not heard a word from them.

As a typically dysfunctional and abusive family they are quite insular, have few relatives and few friends. So whilst I do worry about what will happen to the relationship I have with the few remaining close relatives who are geographically far apart, I don't feel the need to worry about any other "flying monkeys".

I do however feel that I subtly need to watch by back.

flump she came round for an hour, talked a load of rubbish and then left. I give her nothing about my life anymore so I'm a bit boring for her. She's convinced that people are always out to get her in some way, I used to just go along with what she said but now I just smile and change the subject to asking after other members of the family or the weather. She hates this as it's not about her so will usually make an excuse and leave.
I don't really see her as my mum any more, she's just a sad bitter old woman whose missing out with her grandchildren.

mayhem they may well leave you alone now. If they are unable to deny what happened in your childhood they certainly won't want you around to bring it up. Hopefully you get the peace from them you deserve

mayhem. Great letter. My DM hasn't been in touch for a while, apart from an attempt to get me to ring one of the golden child DSISs because her dog was sick ! I know that sometime I will end up having to write a letter like that. At the moment it feels so peaceful being out of the family mess that I don't want to risk them paying me any attention. At all. Who'd have believed it, after Xmas I was posting how worried I was that I might be cast out. At the moment , I would feel happy to be forever ignored. Weird, eh ? All of my life my anxiety has been because I felt excluded [ and punished] and couldn't work out why - now I am happy to be . TBH I feel that people on here are more family than my birth family have ever been, if that doesn't sound too slushy.

Sorry to everyone who is in pain to you all. It's a process, but it doesn't mean it's not painful. They say that sometimes getting to rock bottom means you have to change . New insights and memories come up all the time. I'm seeing a counsellor for a preliminary [free] session next week - I'll be talking for Britain. Will have to try to focus on the future.Especially overcoming the conditioned FOG reactions when in contact with family. Especially scary DM. Never too old to change ! I'm glad actually that I have managed to 'rebel' whilst she's still alive. Never could before. Second teenage -hood .

Morning ....Gosh I can relate to so much in the last few posts. My family memories are very much a mixture of happy memories and horrible ones. I think someone asked if a narcissist can be 'nice' sometimes... In my case, my dad can be when things are going his way. Someone also mentioned eating disorders. I went through a phase when I was 18 of severely restricted eating. I was on verge of anorexia ....I was even weighing apples to find out calorie content. Parents didnt query this at all and I just got comments about how well I was doing losing weight . I think the thing I'm struggling with most is my mum at the moment. I always knew the was something wrong with my dad but never thought the was anything wrong with my relationship with mum. I've realised though I don't have a close bond with her. I feel really angry about that now. What the fuck was wrong with me that she couldn't bond with me? Why didn't she just leave the marriage , rather than giving me such a crap model of relationships that I've followed in my own life?

Hi everyone. Mayhem that is a great letter. You sound very strong and steadfast - even if you might not be feeling it atm

Make I hope you get on well with your first session - it's something I'm considering as I'm finding it hard at times - this thread really helps though. Is it a 'thing' that a narc mother will push the 'scapegoat' (me) to keep in contact with the golden child (my Dsis)? My mother lives with my sister a lot of the time so when I'm avoiding my mother I end up going weeks not seeing either of them. Then my mother will start saying I should call my sister for this and that. My sister is a nice person and we have got on well at times but she is so embroiled with my mother that my gut tells me to avoid both of them at times like this. My sister's DC are only young and and I can clearly see my mother already has my sister's DC's 'roles' in place. It's sickening to see and I feel really drained after seeing it all going on

My mother also always likes to know if I'm seeing my sister - so she can be there too - she can't ever be left out of anything. I would probably see my sister more if I could see her on my own, but it hardly ever happens because we're made to feel bad for 'excluding her'. It's fucked up.

I've also been thinking about the fact that whenever we have a do at my house that involves my and my sister's friends (we do have some mutual friends), we are obliged to invite my mother too. There's no point in not because she'll find out about it and turn up anyway. A couple of months ago I had a small do for about six friends, and invited my Dsis as they are her friends too. My mum turned up, got loud and started being embarrassing and inappropriate - as she often does. Then for days afterwards she was bitching about my friends and how she can't stand them because they're so 'false' or 'sickeningly lovey dovey' or 'make her sick'.

She hates everyone so I don't understand why she would want to see them anyway

Sorry I'm brain dumping again.

Hi everyone, hope you're all having a good day. Xx

Roast My mum isn't in your face nasty, not these days, but there's definitely undertones and it sometimes slips out every so slightly. I put her 'control' down to meeting her in a public place, she'd never show her real face in public. I've been conditioned not to upset her but I'm gaining awareness by the day so it's a watch this space.

Sleepy I had an eating disorder at age 15, no one noticed. I also drank booze and smoked a pack of cigs a day, no one noticed. I must have stank but nothing was ever said. On the flip side my son had a small round burn mark on the outside of his wrist when he was about 13/14. Long story short it he'd burnt himself on purpose because he thought he was ugly, but because I (and my OH) where on the ball we were able to quite quickly get to the root of it and guide him through before it escalated. I remember feeling quite surprised that he accepted our guidance, he was very vulnerable at this point and yet totally trusted us.

I've had another lightbulb moment this week. My son does this thing where when he's upset, annoyed, angry, disappointed... that kind of thing, he'll say his piece or his opinion then he'll let it drop. It never bleeds out into anything else. I've always thought that that was special to him but this week I've realised that this is absolutely normal behaviour. I was brought up and conditioned to believe that if someone is upset or annoyed with me about one thing that they're upset and annoyed with me about everything I said or did until they chose not to be.

I don't know if that makes any sense but for me it's life changing. I have spent so much of my life trying hard to please people for fear of annoying them or upsetting them because I honestly thought that if I did one thing 'wrong' they'd hate me, punish me, reject me or call me bad names about everything. The thing is, I am not a bad person, I do like to make people happy and that's part of me now but I also make mistakes or mess up and I must admit I do have a tendency to run myself ragged. I'm stopping that, I'm going to stop being scared of getting things wrong, I'm going to slow down and if I can't do something then I'm just going to have to say that I can't do it. I've had ups and downs this week but I'm delighted at my latest discovery, It feels like I'm unlearning and breaking free of the poison.

Hi roast - x-posted with you

It was me who mentioned an eating disorder and also me who was confused because my mum can be really 'nice' - and over the years I've had good and bad memories of my childhood - so it is confusing.

My mum was the narcissist in my childhood. I'm not sure what my dad's role was. When I was little he was lovely, funny, playful and we got on well. As I got older, into my teens, we stopped getting on and he generally just withdrew into himself was quiet and miserable most of the time. At the time I thought he was just an old grump. My mother would agree with me and moan about my dad all the time - she would flirt with any man in the vicinity apart from him. She also would suggest that I made him grumpy because I was such a difficult teenager. I remember her telling me when I was probably about 10 that she was only staying with him because of me. That really upset me and I felt so sorry for him but didn't have a clue what to do to rescue the situation . My dad died young a long time ago and since then my mum has rewritten history. They had the perfect marriage according to her . She's right on one thing - he did appear to think the sun shone out of her arse and spent his life trying (and failing) to keep her happy. But she's conveniently forgotten about the degrading and miserable way she treated him for years.

It's only been really recently that I realise my dad didn't just withdraw as I got older because he was grumpy and because I was hard work. He was very likely depressed because of the way his wife treated him

Sorry I'm rambling again...

You're not rambling Flump, not at all

Re your comment:-

"It's only been really recently that I realise my dad didn't just withdraw as I got older because he was grumpy and because I was hard work. He was very likely depressed because of the way his wife treated him"

Exactly. You were never the cause of their marriage difficulties (that would instead be your mother) and one of the toxic parents characteristics is to blame their child for all their inherent ills and say that they were a difficult child.

You were not and were never responsible for your dad's unhappiness in their marriage, not ever. Your late dad still failed to protect you though from her and remained with her for his own reasons (he got what he wanted out of this and did not want to see any other options). He was a bystander and a weak man who idolised his wife (he may have grown up with a mother who was herself very similar). Women like your mother cannot do relationships at all so the men in their lives are either as narcissistic as they are or are otherwise discarded as hers ultimately was. You also copped emotional abuse from your mother as well throughout, one example being she made you her confidant and that should never have happened either.

My MIL has also rewritten the past re her late H and its done primarily to make her look good. The fact is they could barely stand being in the same room as each other, no wonder he went out a lot. I have retained no real sympathy for him either; he stayed with her for his own reasons.

Atilla I will admit reading you response made me wince . I loved my dad and see him as quite a tragic figure now looking back - although yes he was weak in that respect. But I can't help feeling protective towards him/his memory.

He had no relationship at all with his mother - he was brought up in care. So that probably explains a lot. My mum definitely found somebody in him who she could manipulate and control, that much is clear. I think he just put up with it all as we were his family, his home, and he had nothing else.

I did not mean to make you wince, am very sorry.

The fact that your late dad grew up in care says an awful lot. Your mother targeted him really because she did see him as someone she could easily manipulate. Your last sentence is one I would certainly agree with.