"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I agree with attilla. The problem with narcs is that we all have to worry about hurting THEIR feelings ---all the time. But what about ours? We're not allowed to have them. Narc parents hurt their children all the time. And it's never their fault. We could all play that game. Oh, poor me, I'm sooo upset. I'm old, You don't know what it was like, my own child turning against me after all I've done for you. Where's the justice ? I used to believe all that crap about karma [ what goes around comes around/ the meek will inherit the earth etc - so many of these, wonder who wrote them ? Bet it wasn't the victims.] . But it ain't true except in films. . We'll have to try to write our own endings .... and feel brave enough to do so. Hopefully.

I know how you feel - I've been doing a lot of reflecting too

I downloaded a book on Kindle over the weekend - The Peaceful Daughter's Guide to Separating from a Difficult Mother. It was recommended somewhere - maybe on here? And didn't look too heavy duty for me

But bloody hell I feel a bit pulled through a mangle today. I read it to a point and it was all making sense, then the book suggested I write down everything she's done to me in my life, what she should and shouldnt have done, what would be different if such and such hadn't happened ,etc.It says just write it all down, no matter how long it end up being. Well it's long. And it made me cry. And reading it back it's scary how bad it sounds, and also pretty obvious why I do certain things and react in certain ways.

I'm kind of drained now and feel a bit crap. I just hope it will help when I move on to the next bit

But as you say, hopefully it's all part of the awakening process. I'm remembering things from years ago that I hadn't thought about for years. And they're all horrible

The reflecting is hard and draining it took a lot our of me and I found I used to have flashbacks or would read something or evening watching something on TV would trigger a lost memory some of them were small things but the more I remembered all the small things added up and fitted together like a jigsaw, when I started to go LC I discovered I was pregnant and suffered from all day sickness so spent a lot of time in bed afraid to move incase I got sick!! But it meant I had a lot of time to think between hormones and remembering bits of my childhood I cried a lot but it made me stronger too

There must be something in the air, there's a huge bunch of us struggling today.

I've a feeling that 'Gran Portion' might become a private joke at some point Drawers but for now i'm going to let it drop I felt from my son's reaction that he was happy with what had been said so that's good enough for me.

Hashi My son knows me & OH are bonkers about Christmas so it won't have seemed odd for him lol. Last year we decided to do what we call the 12 days of Christmas so every day on the 12 days run up we did something Christmassy.

I've only been writing things in here drawers but I can see how it could help to maybe start a notebook. I'm mainly struggling with the gush of memories and i'm struggling to see what everyone's roles are too. I can definitely relate to being parentified though so i'm trying to take steps to back away from that responsibility. I also suspect quite strongly that my mum pitted me and dad against each other, dad seems to be her scapegoat, but most of my memories involve her bitching to me about my dad (behind his back) and she's still doing it now. I'm wondering if she bitched about me to him too because growing up I felt like my dad hated me but never knew why and he never said why

Is it possible that a narc mum would pit a father & daughter against each other like they do with siblings?

Hope everyone is having a better evening, seems like we all had a difficult morning!

Attila thank you for the link, really helpful. I worry though not knowing where exactly I fit into those roles. It makes me worry I am making it up?

Flump I looked at that book the other day but haven't bought it yet - let us know if it's worth a read!

I feel a bit overwhelmed this evening. Can't work out if I am feeling guilty and in denial, or angry and thinking with clarity!

Chest you're not making it up. When you described your role I thought lost child, but it's not that because she makes use of you, you're still expected to take part. IDK if it has a name but I played that same role for a narc boss a few years ago. After 6 months or so of her bullying where I'd basically grey rocked her and dealt constructively with all her criticism, she decided she "liked" me (shudder) and I got to be one of her less-favoured pets. Her real favourites could expect easy promotion and light workloads - I got a heavy workload and basically I got ignored unless she needed someone to laugh at her jokes. I've never felt so invisible. But she wasn't actively gunning for me. Does that sound familiar?

How's everybody feeling this morning? Better than yesterday I hope...

Chest so far the book is definitely not a light read as I hoped it would be - I feel exhausted from all the digging around I did in my head yesterday to write everything down, which is one of the first 'exercises' in the book. But hopefully it's all positive in the long run. I never, ever cry, even if I really feel like I want to, if that makes sense. But since yesterday I feel like somebody's turned a tap on and my eyes are dribbling constantly . At least it's sunny today so I disguise my piggy eyes

Toomuch Thanks for your post. Yes that does sound familiar. It's hard for me to identify because as you say she's not actively gunning for me, but I'm also not that interesting either - so it's like not really bad, not really good. And leaves me wondering if it's that bad and if I'm being 'over sensitive' (a key character flaw of mine, apparently). That's helpful what you wrote. I suppose there is a sense of being invisible. The true me, who I really am now, as a strong and independent adult - I think she is invisible. The family me, playing my role - I think that is what is allowed to be visible.

Flump lots of for you. I hope you can take it easy today and be gentle with yourself - hopefully nothing else stressful going on. The book sounds like a helpful tool but I'll brace myself before starting by the sounds of it!!

I feel a bit low today. I feel lonely, although I don't really want to be with anyone. It's a gnawing loneliness of this growing realisation that I don't think my family want to speak to me/ see me/ know me as much as I thought, I don't think any of them really give a crap at the moment. Even the sibling I thought was my ally, I'm realising they too are being hard to get. Why do I keep upsetting myself trying and trying with these people? I keep chasing them and keep getting ignored and rejected. I just can't bear it. I feel sad.

Chest I think over time I am realising I can't change my relatives/mother in particular into the 'image' of them we want them to be, or think they should be. All we can change is the effect
we allow them to have on us.

You are upsetting yourself by trying and trying with these people because they have been your family all your life and you are only just starting to realise they are not the people you thought they were. You can't change the way you deal with them overnight but you/we will get there

I do feel a bit low today too but I also feel like I am seeing things much more clearly. DH read through my brain dump last night that I had written as advised in the book I'm reading. He is not really the touchy-feely type and is usually very much in control of his emotions. But he really struggled to read some of it and got quite upset. That wasn't nice to see, but it was good to have some validation from another person that what I had experienced was 'definitely not acceptable and actually pretty dark and horrific' (in his words).

As much as I feel sad, I also feel, genuinely for the first time in my life, that my 'issues' (making bad choices in the past, not coping well with anxiety, to name a couple) were not and are not my fault. I can see for the first time in my life that I was manipulated from a very young age and it's no surprise that I have ended up the way I am at the hands of a very controlling and narc mother.

And funnily enough, just knowing that has also given me hope that if it's not something I've done to myself, I can probably change it for the better if I really want to. I just haven't quite got there yet.

Good evening everyone, I was just looking for a bit of advice. I'm going to my parents house tomorrow so they can "talk" to me. What can I do to stop myself getting upset? They like doing this thing where they point out to me every little mistake I have ever made and tell me how my siblings don't like me or trust me, how I'm failing at being a parent, how I fail at life and generally how I'm a failure.

I really need a way to get through the day without crying in front of them and making it worse because they always win. Always. Anyone know how to do it?

Keep going Flump, because I can tell you, I'm about a year further down the line from you and it is amazing what you find out about yourself when you go through this stuff. I'd really recommend Pete Walker's books - particularly the one on complex PTSD if you find yourself suffering from unexplained bouts of sadness or guilt or fear.

plaintomatopasta

Do you have to see your parents at all particularly if they are only going to berate you for simply being you?.

I would not attend under any circumstances and you do not have to play the roles they assigned to you from childhood. You also do not need their approval, not that they would ever give this to you anyway. Putting yourself in front of them is simply asking for more rubbish to be thrown at you; are your siblings treated differently?. My guess is that they are more favoured with you being the family scapegoat.

@atillathemeerkat if I didn't agree to go there they were coming here. At least there I can walk away. I feel like I need to give my parents a hearing as my step dad is a lot more reasonable these days and my mum has been ill. I'm worried she'll die and I will regret not having at least tried with her. My current therapist thinks it's a good idea and I've got to spend a week with her in June (in zante so no escape) so we need to at least call a truce.

My sister is actually a gem and so she's immune from this and my brother cannot do a thing wrong. The little shit has been involved in drugs, breaking into houses, cars and school, he stole my mums car once, started a fire, endangered my little sister when she was about 9/10 and he's still my mums angel and all his crimes have been forgotten. I am still being reprimanded for having an eating disorder and causing my mum so much stress she developed cancer and is still ill all the time.

My concern is if I refuse to allow her in my home she will contact social services again and tell them I'm putting my 2yo in danger because I'm trying to kill myself. About seven years ago I took an overdose and ended up in hospital for a few months so when they see my medical history they believe her. Twice now she's done it because I've said I don't like her shouting at my son and speaking to me negatively in front of him. I really don't need the extra stress.

plaintomatopasta

They do not deserve any sort of hearing, they are certainly not going to listen to you and old age is not going to mellow them.

TBH tomato you have likely tried all your life with your mother; it is she and her enabler of a H who have not tried here and have failed you completely. She does not want to know really and nor does your stepfather; himself a weak and nasty bystander of a man. When are your parents ever going to give you a break?. After all you bloody well matter. You ended up with an eating disorder purely and simply because life at home was completely intolerable and you had no voice.

I would be fully prepared to walk away from them all; your parents sound absolutely dreadful and not at all loving. Its not your fault they are like this, you did not make them this way.

I was wondering why your therapist thinks it is a good idea to meet with them at all; such rarely if ever works out well for the person going to meet the toxic people because toxic people are inherently unreasonable. I am always wary of therapists who suggest such things frankly because they have their agendas for doing so. Toxic people do not apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. You would also have not tolerated any of this from a friend, family are no different.

Re your comment:-
"My concern is if I refuse to allow her in my home she will contact social services again and tell them I'm putting my 2yo in danger because I'm trying to kill myself. About seven years ago I took an overdose and ended up in hospital for a few months so when they see my medical history they believe her. Twice now she's done it because I've said I don't like her shouting at my son and speaking to me negatively in front of him. I really don't need the extra stress".

Do you know for a fact that SS have seen your medical records?. I bet you they have not. I would also hope that Social Services would now give your mother short shrift for wasting their time. They would surely ask for evidence that she could not herself provide; she is making malicious calls to them. The fact that you took an overdose all those years ago is now an irrelevance that they would not likely take any notice of. They would see that your children are both loved and cared for if any home visit was made. Your mother simply uses SS to threaten you with to bring you under her control; call her bluff on this and do not let her use this against you. She could not give a fig about her granddaughter or grandson either if she treats you as her mother with such disdain. There is NO chance ever of your mother calling a truce.

I would cancel your holiday with them to Zante now because it will be anything but nice and relaxing for you. She will probably shout at your children as well.

I've been following this thread for a long time and it has helped me enormously, sorry for all of you who are suffering, but at least you realize you are not alone.
I have been NC with my mother for some years now, I had to protect my DC so had no choice and have no regrets whatsoever.
The problem is, my only remaining relatives don't want to believe me, even after all this time and even though one of these relatives went NC with my mother for 15 years.
I want my DC to have a relationship with these relatives because they aren't bad people just possibly have misplaced loyalty and they are all I have on my side.
My mother is presenting herself as the victim but it's my DC who are the victims.
What can I do? What has anyone else done in this situation?

pasta in your shoes I'd be inclined to go and have a very calm, friendly conversation in person with social services, to explain your concern if that's possible. That way they would see you are fine and if she does contact them they would immediately know it's malicious.

Having said that I admit I've had no dealings with social services myself. But its a way to blunt the weapon she's trying to use against you. If you were entirely calm and reasonable with them and had anything written to show them she is threatening you, it might help.. ?

Plaintomato- don't go to this ritualised blame session and don't go on holiday with them. Your fear of social services is misplaced.

SS had to take her contact seriously because my son was 8weeks old and so they called my gp, he called the crisis team and before I knew it there were ten people in my tiny front room. I had to be assessed in hospital and my son had to be stripped and checked for any potential injury as she said I'd threatened to kill us both because I didn't want her seeing him. It took about two months to be completely dropped as they had to go through the paperwork and I wasn't allowed to be alone with my baby at all. It broke me. It made me genuinely think I was better off dead and I felt like everyone around me questioned if I was good enough for my child or even safe to be alone with him. That was two years ago and it scares me to death.

As to holidays in June it's for my brothers wedding. It's "the one day" she's been looking forward to "since he threw the proposal party" two years ago. I've got married since then but apparently "less said about that the better" so I just ignore her when she says this because I know she's jut trying to get a rise out of me and the rest of the guests said it was the best wedding they've been to. I have to go as it's not my brothers fault. He remembers none of his childhood (interestingly) so is no part of it.

I'm smart enough to ignore the wedding comments because I have confidence in it. The things she says about me being a bad person and a useless mum are more difficult because they are doubts I have myself. My mum has practiced a long time in sparking my emotions and it wasn't until recently I realised her habit of keeping me awake all night as a child/teen whilst making me cry was something very very wrong. I honestly believed I must have been the most awful child. Now I'm a mum myself I've realised that even if my children did something truly awful I wouldn't torture them like that. I mean even at 2yo I put up with sleepless nights because I can't let my son cry it out and learn to sleep.

I just need to get through tomorrow. I start a new long term therapy on Wednesday next week with secondary services rather than just talking therapies. They've assessed that I have pnd and pnp which means I need medical help rather than a chat. My final thing to do is speak to my mum (I've been putting it off for a long time) so I have focus and a starting point she said. I'm dubious but I'm too tired to start another fight with SS and risk my boy being put through that again. My DH trusts me implicitly with our son but it's just stressful to sort the mess. I will see if I can head it off though by contacting them myself of things go wrong tomorrow.

I just need a trick to not cry without looking like I'm being insolent.

Plaintomato
Your DH and DS are your top priority, you don't need to speak or have any contact again with your mother, it would be the best thing you could do for yourself, your DS and DH.
Don't doubt yourself, be strong and for your own sanity stay away from her.

Thank you ladies. My priority will always be my son. The world could end and he'll still be fine.

I fee sorry for my mum. I don't know why but I really do. She's always got one excuse or another to be annoyed with me and I hate that. But I feel sorry for her that she just can't be satisfied. I wonder if she's just projecting her insecurities on me and that rather than me being in therapy maybe she should too. I guess I want to help her. My entire life is about making people happy (except the kids I teach, they probably hate me sometimes but I don't care). I just wish I had a perfect family and we all loved each other and chatted and kept in touch. It's hard sometimes seeing my friends families and mynin-laws because they have that. I'm actually working to make thatnin my own little branch of the family tree and I've forgiven my dad so I think that's making me want to forgive my mum.

Screw it. I'll go tomorrow and that's it. It's just taken me two hours to get a toddler to sleep and if I can do that I'll do this too! Thank you x

It's understandable that you feel sorry for her, and you are probably right about her needing therapy, but you should be feeling sorry for yourself having to put up with being spoken to in such an insulting way.
I don't believe many people have the perfect family, and yours never will be (I don't mean your DS and DH).

Hi plaintomatopasta,

re your comment:-

"I wonder if she's just projecting her insecurities on me and that rather than me being in therapy maybe she should too. I guess I want to help her. My entire life is about making people happy"

And that last sentence is itself a problem because its people pleasing behaviour. It needs tackling with a therapist. What about making you happy, do you not matter?. You bloody well do matter tomato!.

I would reconsider going there tomorrow because really no good will come of it for you. They will use you being there to tear you off a strip.

I think your mother has spent her whole life projecting all her crap onto you because she made you her scapegoat for all her inherent ills. She assigned that role to you and made your brother the golden child (a role not without price either but he is too unaware to realise that). Would he react badly if you did not attend his wedding or does he really not bother either way?

Honestly I would not give your mother the time of day, she does not deserve to see you at all. Sod with visiting her tomorrow as well, doing that will simply make you feel bad and set your own long term recovery back that bit more. I will not say I told you so if you do go but it will be akin to walking into the lions den. People like your mother are disordered of thinking (she may well indeed have some form of untreated and untreatable personality disorder) but they do not seek the necessary help and do not want it because they think they are right and all the time. Its not your fault she is like this, you did not make her this way. You need to break away completely from her and your stepfather who also has failed you here too.

You may feel sorry for your mother but that is probably because you are both a kind and decent person and want to see the best in everyone, even her. She has not and will never give you that same consideration; she just wants to put you and in turn your children down all the time. Using SS as a tool in her arsenal is a low blow on her part and your mother did act maliciously here. I note it all got dropped two months later on as well.

You will ultimately need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got. Set yourself free of these tyrannical people.

Hi GreenJeep,

re your comment:-

"I've been following this thread for a long time and it has helped me enormously, sorry for all of you who are suffering, but at least you realize you are not alone.
I have been NC with my mother for some years now, I had to protect my DC so had no choice and have no regrets whatsoever.
The problem is, my only remaining relatives don't want to believe me, even after all this time and even though one of these relatives went NC with my mother for 15 years.
I want my DC to have a relationship with these relatives because they aren't bad people just possibly have misplaced loyalty and they are all I have on my side".

Re your last sentence those are still not good enough reasons to be in touch with any of them. Nowhere near good enough actually.

Why do you want your children to have a relationship with the flying monkeys; these people who have basically acted in their own self interest and have actively refused to listen to your side of things?. Examine your own feelings here carefully because it really does not stack up. If these people do not want to believe you or even hear you out, they are really not worth the bother of knowing.

Thank you for your reply Attila.
One of these relatives has kept in touch and emails regularly and sends cards for DC, it's just that I asked if we could visit, as they live in another country, and the answer was only when I reconcile with my mother which makes me think they don't realize how bad it was.
I have explained everything but, I assume, they just don't want to believe it.