"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

My DS took me by surprise and said my DM is making a habit of this, i.e. Being random/inviting herself into our plans. I was quite shocked...

I know youngster ought Attila

You are right even

Cheekymonk

Children are perceptive and they notice far more. Your DS is quite right; she did muscle her way into your day out and caused her own dramas. You are all merely bit part players to her at the centre of her own universe. People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles; what is yours?. Are you the scapegoat for all her inherent ills?. What role do sibling/s play?. Where's your dad in all this; is he a weak bystander of a man here who acts out of self preservation and want of a quiet life?. He has at the very least failed to protect you from his wife.

Its not your fault she is like this, you did not make her this way. Her own family of origin did that lot of damage and the clues are to be found in her own childhood as well.

She was not a good parent to you (an understatement actually, narcissistic people make out for being deplorably bad parents and role models) and unsurprisingly she is not a decent sort of grandparent to your children either.

The best thing you can do for all of you actually is to have nothing to do with your mother at all and be in a no contact position. She will not give you what you want from a mother or her approval, not that you still need that from her anyway. Grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got. She cannot play the game if you do not keep reaching out for the rope she holds out to you.

Her and Dad are separated but he adores her and will do anything to keep her happy. My DD is the scapegoat currently but I have been. She clings to me as I have my own family with a strong foundation and she strives to be a part of it when it suits. I'm not sure what my role is. Yes though, this weekend has been a wake up call for the effect she has on my family...Thanks Attila.

Attila I know the ideal solution is to not have the narc person in your life at all, but I don't think I can do that - or maybe I'm just not ready for the fallout... In my head I want to be in a low contact position, where I keep things on a superficial level, and cut dead/ignore her when she starts one or her episodes (illness, drama, bitching, etc...).

Do you think that's even possible or will she just ramp it up another level until she gets a reaction?

Also, I'm ashamed to say I'm feeling really on edge about when she decides to come out of her current silent treatment sulk and turn up at my house, to find the locks changed so she can't get in.

There's every chance she'll just keep trying until she breaks the bloody lock again (seriously). But what do I do when she says (as she will) "well I'm going to need a key/will have to get one cut"

It's becoming clear to me that I'm too friggin pathetic to say that she can't have one - even though it's my home, and DH's home. And even though DH has never really liked her having free access to our house. Even though his parents have never had one (they're not perfect by any means but they have just never expected one). And even though, most obviously, it's not her home!

WTF am I so pathetic?

You're not pathetic, you're dealing with the woman who's been bullying you since you were so little you can't remember. She trained you to be compliant and gave you plenty reason to be scared of her, even if that response doesn't make sense now that you're an adult.

The beauty of NC if you do do it, is that you don't have to manage the fallout. They can rage away but if you block all communications, you don't have to hear it. It depends on your situation though, other family members and friends and stuff.

I ghosted my mother just after we moved house and sent a no contact letter a few months later, with no return address, after she sent a flying monkey to see what was up. I imagined for a while that the tantrum must have been epic. But then I realised that all through it I'd had my old British SIM card still in my phone and she could have phoned at any time. I think once she realised I wasn't going to take any more nonsense, she just lost interest. Thank Christ.

Yes my Mum insisted on having a key to our place too which I'm uncomfortable with...

BadTasteFLump

Re your comment:-
"In my head I want to be in a low contact position, where I keep things on a superficial level, and cut dead/ignore her when she starts one or her episodes (illness, drama, bitching, etc...).

Do you think that's even possible or will she just ramp it up another level until she gets a reaction?"

No, not possible. She will simply ramp it all up again to get a reaction from you. LC as well often leads to no contact. The current level of contact you do have with her is still problematic; she still has and wants you trained to serve her and compliant with it. She trained you well.

And what toomuchtooold wrote in its entirety as well. You're in no way pathetic.

Theworst I thought everybody got stinky when they have a proper cry? I turn into a sweaty red blob

It's only in the movies where women cry beautifully and don't end up covered in snot and looking like Alice Cooper

I also love the dildo suggestions though I think i'd be just as worried about the DC finding it so that's probably not the best idea for me.... And yes I think you're spot on about the business with keys just showing how fucked up our boundaries are.

DH made me practice replying to my mum in an assertive way last night - sounds ridiculous I know but I hope it will help. He was 'me' and I was 'her' and I was saying things like 'I'll need a key, you'll have to get one cut, or I could take yours and do it now'. And he was saying things like 'no, it's fine thanks' and 'no, if for any reason we need you to to be here without us we will leave one of ours here' (over my dead body btw...). And when I/she wouldn't drop it he said (as me) 'look, If you must know MrFlump doesn't want anybody else to have a key as he has had enough of you walking in on him with his arse out . Don't know if it's fair to use him as my 'scapegoat' though...

Flump Good luck with refusing the spare key. It's important for you, your husband and your kids to have that safe secure feeling that she's not going to just wander in unannounced.

I know it's not easy saying no, or going against what mum wants/expects but the alternative is worse. I'm rooting for you.

Thank you . I know rationally it is perfectly reasonable and normal to have privacy in your own home. But my mother acts so entitled she just manages to mangle my brain.

I keep remembering things she's said and done to justify standing up to her (in my head, anyway).

A few months ago I stood up to her when she had said something really nasty about a relative. Her response was to say to me 'Well you can talk, do you remember the last thing you said to your dad before he died?' with a big ugly sneery grin on her face. The backstory there is that my dad keeled over and died suddenly when I was a teenager. He and I were arguing a lot at the time - as lots of teens do with their dads. But sadly for me I never got the chance to get past that stage. The night he died, I had gone out a couple of hours before, and we had had words before I left and I didn't say goodbye when I left. Then he died. I struggled with feeling guilty about that for years, and my mum knew that. But it didn't stop her pulling that one out of the bag twenty years later to use against me in an argument.

Please somebody tell me a 'normal' loving mother wouldn't say something like that to her own daughter?

The punchline to that is that after she said that she left and gave me the silent treatment for two weeks

Another example - she gets really bitter and angry when DH is 'too nice' to me - to the point that I start to feel really anxious if she"s there and he tries to hold my hand on the sofa or give me kiss (just a little one, nothing snoggy!) etc because I can 'feel' her getting arsey.

We went to a wedding for one of my friends a few years ago and she also invited my mum, who didn't know anyone else, so sat with us. Suddenly half way through the night she got up and announced she'd had enough and was going home - she'd had enough of watching 'people slobbering over each other' and it was 'making her sick'.

We had been talking to her and buying her drinks all night. But yes we were a bit tiddly and probably got a bit lovey dovey and had some slow dances.

For that I was given the silent treatment for a couple of weeks.

At Christmas my mother was at ours (hmm) and DH had bought me some lovely presents. But I was so worried about her spoiling the day by going into one of her moods that I really downplayed how much I loved my presents from DH - normally I would give him a big hug & a kiss etc - but I can't be myself when she's there and hardly said anything. He is a lovely man and does understand what she's like, but he deserves better than that . There's been times where I've quietly asked him to cool it with me a bit because she doesn't like it. This would be when he's tried to hold my hand or have an arm around me when she's there or something - it's not like he was trying to grab my arse/tits!

That's not normal is it? I will be so happy in the future to see my DD with a man who loves her and treats her well.

There's so many levels of not normal in that. Not only is she jealous, which is weird (who the hell doesn't wish for their kids that they will be loved) but that she can't/won't even hide her jealousy - it suggests she either doesn't know how she comes across to other people or she doesn't have enough control over her behaviour to do anything about it. Either way, quite impaired.

Dear Flump. It sounds as though you and MrFlump need to be much more loving in front of her. Appear in your dressing gown to answer the door . And don't rush to get dressed. You may not see her for a long time. It's lovely to hear that you and DH are still affectionate and appreciative in spite of all of this. DD will copy you, so she's lucky to have a good role model.

Thanks for replies

Make MrFlump always says the same thing - actually that in any situation I shouldn't modify my behaviour when my mother is around, I should always be myself and she can like it or lump it. It's so hard though - I seem to morph into my 'mother version' of me without even realising it.

Flump Yes it's hard to do it on reality isn't it! But in principle I agree that you shouldn't have to change yourself.

I am struggling this morning with all this. Just feel in a weird place with it. Feel like I am being really mean. She can't help being how she is and I can't bear the thought of hurting her. I now have this stuff in my head all the time, unpicking what she does and says. And it makes me feel like I'm being a real bitch

I'm struggling today too drawers. I'm having intrusive disjointed memories that flit from wayyyy in the past to present day then halfway back again and so on. I'm hoping it's part of my awakening so I'm not pushing them away, I hope that's the right thing to do.

One recent one that haunts me happened at Christmas just gone, the same Christmas as the sock saga. Mum had previously moaned ( privately to me not to his face) that the year before when I'd let my OH carve the meat that he'd carved it too thickly, she'd also moaned that my dad is rubbish at carving too. So this year when I popped the turkey on the table she stood up, snatched the knife and started to carve. I wasn't aware of what she was at this point so I wasn't paying attention. Upshot was later in the day my adult son told me that his gran hadn't given him much turkey, she'd given everyone else a decent portion but him a very small slither. Thing is, and for this I feel terribly guilty, I asked him if he was sure, then said she probably didn't mean it and brushed it away. Now I've miraculously woken up It's been bothering me because first he's not a liar or a drama queen, he'd not have mentioned it if it didn't happen and secondly he's not normally backwards when it comes to saying anything but that day he ate his dinner in silence. I have Christmas dinner photos where he looks really unhappy which isn't like him. I'm wondering if he got given 'a look' along with his slither. It's haunting me that she did this on purpose for a kick.

I can't go into the ins and outs about her with him, I can't talk about it without it sounding like I'm bitching, it's too raw and besides, he doesn't have much to do with her, he's got a life of his own so there's not that immediate need to protect him but I felt I had to do something, say something, just to acknowledge that I totally believe him (4 months later!). This morning I kind of breezily said that now it's nearly May I'm going to start thinking about Christmas then added that I don't want a repeat of gran giving him a stingy portion this year so if he wants, he can have a turn at carving, if he doesn't want then everyone can carve their own.

I feel better for saying something but I'm so cross about the whole thing. The worst part is the snidyness, if she'd have kicked him or shouted that she hated him it could be dealt with there and then (not that I want her to hurt or abuse him), but it would be out in the open and everyone would know what she was and where they stood, If that makes sense. Her snidely behaviour is her trademark, it's what she does and she's so accomplished at it it's gone on right under my nose.

So that's why I feel shitty today. Apologies for long post, I had to unload

Hi Trifle. Sorry you're struggling today. I am having the same thing - waves of memories from ages ago, and recently, all jumbled up, and all getting unpicked and looked at fresh. And it's a painful process. I agree it must all be part of this awakening thing, I too am just trying to allow it and acknowledge it. I am writing a lot. Writing as much of it down as is helpful. And that's helping me loads. Maybe it would be helpful for you too?

That sounds really shitty, what she did on Christmas day. I wonder if she had planned it. I also wonder any other portions were different - if someone else got a bigger portion than the rest. I can relate to wanting to raise it but not wanting to make a big thing of it. What you did with your son sounds appropriate. I would say not to feel too bad if you can about the delay - better late than never. That might have been enough to heal and acknowledge that wound he had inflicted by her. Depending how he responds, maybe it could even be a recurring joke/ eye roll? Maybe you could channel this into a plan for next time, or think of strategies to call it out?

I am thinking about the most recent Mothers Day. For separate reasons it is a sad day for me, but DM doesn't know that. She insists on only a card and a phone call - no gifts or fuss. But I'm never sure if that actually is what she wants. It feels like a competition.

DPs and DB1 (who is currently golden child) visited a week or two after Mother's Day. The subject came up. DM and DB related this tale of how DB had got her this thing and that thing. I won't go into details in case it's outing, but it was told in a way that made DB2 sound like an absolute dick, really shitty, and that made DB1 sound glorious, golden, loving, a hero. Lots of smug smiley looks between them. Meanwhile the card and call from me weren't mentioned once.

I don't know what to call my current role. I'm calling it 'The Other One'. I seem to be an audience, a listener, a facilitator, a peacekeeper, the one who puts effort in to communication, a doormat, an empty vessel, an extension of her. I don't feel I am particularly interesting to her in my own right.

I just felt like this Mothers Day thing summed it up really clearly. Didn't really see it at the time.

treacle did your ds think you were mad just randomly mentioning Christmas . Nicely done though, made a good point without making an entire thing.

Maybe is a day of it today. I'm reflecting lots too. I'm angry again at my sister for pulling shit but tbh it's not her that's hurting me. I know I'd never exclude my sister wrt parents if the shoe was on the other foot because I know they wouldn't want me to. But it's made me realise, they're happy for me to be excluded. This is my punishment for not rolling over all those years ago and finally saying enough is enough. Sister isn't to be expected to behave like a decent human being, I'm expected to behave as I'm told. I get the 'what do you expect?' line. Well I expect my dps, who are willing to tell me I have to do xy and z to tell sister the same.

Meh.

Hi chestofdrawers

re your comment:-
"She can't help being how she is and I can't bear the thought of hurting her"

Well I think she can actually if she treats you so very badly; she never sought the necessary help for her problems but mistreated you instead and made you the scapegoat for her inherent ills. She has never given you any real consideration whatsoever, you think this last part in particular because you are a kind and empathetic person; that is clearly something your mother is not.

Bet she goes on and on ad nauseum about you making that call and sending her a card as well.

chest

this may be beneficial for you to read as well:-

www.outofthestorm.website/dysfunctional-family-roles/