"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Also meant to say Attila - I don't think my mother is a good grandparent - I have always been wary of her with my DC. But over the years she can be very confusing - she can be blatantly horrible. But there are also times when she can and will do anything, and give you anything, to be helpful. I struggle with that one!

Flump Mine is sometimes doting too, it's confusing. When she does things to help - on appearances it looks like she's being amazing and thoughtful etc - but it always comes with strings attached, and expectations, and you're made to feel indebted. I wondered if that might resonate for you too? It's impossible to challenge and so hard to pinpoint of course since she was just being nice...

Wannabe I've come across that before too, about allowing your children to have their own relationship and opinion of the people around them, and you're there to enable and facilitate, not control. I think it is helpful in this context - as in I don't have to try to manufacture a perfect grandparent or try to control and change things - but only with the huge disclaimer that they are narc and emotionally abusive!! So that means the rules are a bit different I think. I supervise everything, for example. It's something I'm still trying to figure out. What do you think?

"The siblings(my sisters DC) already don't get on at all. The one my mother favours is 'perfect' in my mothers eyes and her sister is intensely jealous of her and takes her anger out on the favoured sister at every opportunity. I do find it hard to be around them as it is very much like the way my sister and I were as children".

I would stay well away from your sister and her kids; the toxic dynamic is indeed being repeated via your mother.

If people like your mother are "helpful" it is often loaded with both obligation and price. It's also done to make them look good in the eyes of others.

Honestly badtasteflump, the best thing you can do for your own self and your children is to keep well away from your mother and your sister's family. You are and will do ok without such people in your lives. You would not have tolerated any of this from a friend either, family are no different.

BadTasteFlump, this confused me no end, because it was true of my Mum too. Then I had the experience of a friend who was a total rock when I was in/leaving and abusive relationship. The minute I got on my feet, she turned on me and tried to bring me down. I realised that my Mum was like that. She was so lovely when you were ill, or if something bad happened. But if you succeeded?

When I got three grade As at A level (in the early 80s, so very rare then), she said nothing. When I shouted at her during a fight about a year later that "my friends got money and presents for passing their A levels, and I got an 'oh, well done' and then being ignored for two weeks for getting three grade As" she responded with, 'I got you a Jam poster, but you were a bit full of yourself, so I didn't give it to you. I'll go and get it now. '

I realised my family dysfunction after a horribly violent relationship finally made me see. I confronted my Mum about it when she was acting out when my Dad was dying in hospital - I didn't mean to, I just lost the plot, shouted all sorts of things I shouldn't have said. Including, 'you've ruled us with your moods and tantrums since the year dot, and it's enough, it ends now. He (pointing at my Dad) never got to choose a holiday, a TV programme, nothing.' She interrupted, 'he LIKES my programmes!' The saddest thing I ever, heard - my Dad said, 'I never liked Murder She Wrote.'

When I had finished (and it was like a TV show - everyone else on the ward had gone quiet), I just stopped and put my head in my hands. Mum said, 'I don't know how you can say things like that in front of all these people!'

It was the start of such a validation of the truth though. My Dad more and more as he was dying spoke up about how he really felt. My sisters supported me completely, and one told me about the physical abuse my brother suffered (I hadn't known about that, she wasn't physically violent except for smacking with us - and yes, I would view smacking as abuse with my son, especially the way she did it). She really physically abused him. He was pretty much NC with her (only Christmas).

When my brother was dying, I got a phonecall from his DP, and phoned my parents to say he was dying and I was coming to pick them up (200 mile journey - I had a 3 year old with me). When I got to my parents', my Dad came to the door and said, 'we aren't coming. Your Mum says no.' That was it, nothing would persuade her. At his funeral she cried buckets, everyone was so sorry for her.

I now know my Dad was codependent, but I can't help feel sorry for him (his Mum was the same). My mum is now totally demented, has no idea who I am. She's lovely now. I know her life was shit, so I like to think she's gone back to how she would have been if shit hadn't happened to her.

It's so complex, families. She saved like a demon so I could have a clarinet. She was so proud of my musical achievements. But anything else? And she didn't even like music. My Dad was the one who loved music, used to sit outside band rehearsals listening for the hour, just cos he liked it.

Sorry for the rambling. First post in this thread. But yes, that's the thing - the caring and self-sacrifice (martyrdom) at times, it can throw you off understanding that a person who is always vile to you, you kind of realise they are not good people. The ones who are kind for some/lots of the time, you don't understand as a kid how they are not normal. I thought everyone's mum would stop speaking to them (for weeks) if they 'did something wrong' (like going on a school trip you'd told your Mum about, but she forgot she'd paid for it).

Agreeing with @atilla, narc dm def bad dgrandm, she can no longer get a reaction out of me so picks on my children as she knows i will jump to their defense and shut her up. She has made comments about my dd weight since she was a baby, now 12 she knows not to go there. She will always tell me i am fat, sz12 and did so when i was a teen and a competitve gymnast.

The only otherway she can get me to react is raking in my stuff, sitting staring hard at me or deliberately blocking so i cant get past.

No idea what drives her, do narc mothers hate their daughters or are jealous?

Myself and two sisters have only ever had critisism and put downs so all three have poor self esteem.

Re fb sorry ive forgotten who mentioned it, definitely come off it or block the people, family members involved. I feel so much better not seeing pics of happy families which would set me off in a rage or downward spiral. Have spent far less time ruminating since stopping fb.

Hope everyone survived easter kxxx

@christmas fluff, i was the same good grades, degree not one well done whilst peers taken for meals etc. Your df sounds alot like mine, mine jumps when she says despite df now being ill. I wish he would get her told but never will, why enabling men think caving gives them an easy life i dont know, seems to give my dm free rein to behave terribly.

That is so sad and upsetting re your db, just appallingly upsetting for you, i cant imagine.

Take care and keep posting, reading this site has been my sanity xxx

Hi all, having a bad today today feeling shit really!!
My family have organised a family event and it's on today and I wasn't asked, I'm LC with some and NC with others for very good reasons! But it's just the fact they couldn't be bothered to try fix things and don't care enough about me or my family to ask, my extended family will all be at the event and I still get on well with them, I can imagine the excuses my DM will come with to explain my absence, at end of day she worries about what people think and wouldn't want anyone thinking bad of her or her husband.

I am here telling myself I'm better off away from them all and deep down I know I am, it's just that it hurts and I just don't understand what I ever did to be treated like this I'm a good person I have loads of friends, good social life, I'm working part time and studying at night, I am a good mother and have a good relationship with my dc's, I look at them and feel so much love and I can't even imagine one day not having them in my life, I would do anything to try fix it if there was something wrong, I spent so many nights as a child crying myself to sleep because I felt so unloved and unwanted it would kill me if my dc's felt that way, and my parents knew that's how I felt because I used to confront them about their favouritism and used to stick up for my DB when he was physically punished for something stupid that all children do but to my parents was another reason to lash out.
I was always told I was a cross baby and my DM was pregnant when she married my father so I do feel they had to get married, so maybe that's why my father treated me badly.

Sorry about the rant

Angels your situation sounds very similar to mine, so sorry you're going through it too my dm just point blank will not discuss anything and denies and changes the subject when I ask why we were not invited and I find myself going through everything in my head trying to work out what I did which inevitably leads to feeling like crap.

theworst got caught in a hail storm a while ago walking back from the Drs. My dcs still talk about it now as it's the best thing ever. It actually sucked but I cba to tell them that how did your dc feel about it? That's all that counts really.

Just wanted to say thank you to Coconut70 for your kind words. xx

Also, maybe this has been touched on before, but I genuinely didn't understand my childhood was odd until I was in my 40s. Yet my only guide to being a mother was that I did nothing my mother did. No physical punishment, no silent treatment, no shouting and tantrums. Breastfed DS. Didn't put him in the garden in a pram all afternoon. Thank goodness I was in Scotland, cos otherwise she would have put me right! (her words).

wannabe
I had a conversation with my hypnotherapist about the need to allow dcs to develop their own relationship with & opinions about her.

I think this is wrong thinking really. I don't think you would facilitate a relationship between your children and any other abusive adult. It's not as if your issue with your mother is simply some difference of opinion - she was abusive to you. While your kids are still kids, you have a duty of care to protect them from people you know to be abusive.

Did you ask opinions about this hypnotherapist on the thread before? (Sorry it is moving so fast these days I can't keep track). It sounds like she is one of those ones who believe that families are always better together. There are plenty of therapists out there who don't believe that, and I think you'd be better off finding one of them - it's an invalidation of the abuse you received to then turn round and say "oh but you should let your children make up their own mnds"." Really? I didn't let them make up their own mind about eating holly berries and playing in the road, so why is this any different?

Everything has to be for the children, so the adult may not derive any enjoyment from it

I wonder if it's something about proving to themselves that it would have been hard to have fun with you when you were a kid? I think they like the idea that there's to levels of parenting - totally perfect self-sacrificing, and "normal" (what they do). (I think a lot of us end up believing a version of this from them too, and trying to be perfect with our own kids out of fear of turning into our parents - as if there was this thin thin line between abusive and perfect, when there's actually miles and miles of space between them).

I think you need to realise that going nc or lc isn't a strategy for getting your family to change. It's a strategy to give you distance from them and that's all. You need to let go of the hope the will change or try harder let alone understand things the way you do as a result.
Then if you feel disappointed about not being invited or shitty treatment you can just remind yourself that you know thisomeone already. There's nothing new. Yes it hurts but it's an old ache.

Christmas my dad was similar to yours and like you I could never find it in me to blame him for being my mother's enabler. He was so badly abused as a kid, my dad, that it was more like having a big brother than a dad. But at least there was someone in the house who actually liked me.
So your dad didn't go to his own son's funeral because it would have made your mother angry? That is so sad. But it's how it is when you live with someone like that. Your own feelings take a back seat compared to their every whim.

My mother was also the same when my dad died. He had Alzheimer's, diagnosed about 2 years before he died. She spent those two years trying to bully him into not forgetting things. I remember talking to him one day about how he wanted to chuck in his job because he was finding it really hard but she wouldn't let him, and he was too scared to let me talk to her on his behalf. In the end he got fired and then god love the job centre because they managed to fix him up with a caretaker job at a place where they cared for people with Alzheimer's so they understood the limits in what he could do. Those people were so good to him and they packed the hall at his funeral while that woman sat next to me and cried crocodile tears.

@theworst yes i wonder too if my dm just hates me and everything about me, as in job, dc names, settee choice, clothes etc.

I was fat, lazy, whale growing up she knows i wont tolerate that abuse now which is why she will try with dc. Do you think your dm does this too or does she still openly say those things to you?

Interesting that she is so dismissive "nonsense" a great way of making you feel worthless. Mine has to always be right regardless of if its a menu spelt wrongly or if she is factually wrong. She now resorts to hideous, grossly un pc things re weight, women and religion.

I too was and am the difficult one a very hurtful label to have.

@angelscare i totally get what you mean, we recently avoided a large family do, to keep sane i blocked it all on fb and got no pics. If we had gone we would have spent £100 s we cant afford only to be treated badly. Its very hard but just look at your own wee family that you are nurturing well. Kxxx

Sorry I'm holding forth - above post is a big over stated . I mean that for me. I've realised that nc isn't a way I win in my family struggle it's a way to let them go and put my energy into parts over my life that aren't dysfunctional

ChristmasFluff Good on your dad for telling it how it is about Murder She Wrote. I imagine that must have felt good to say out loud.

I can relate to the not being rewarded because you didn't behave in a certain way too. It's been a common theme for me and still is. It reminded me of Christmas just gone, it was bizarre, my parents arrived with gifts on Christmas Day as usual BUT, mum usually goes OTT and gets us a huge self picked box of treats (as well as gifts) and this time she didn't. In my private thoughts I suspected she wouldn't because I'd recently upset her by cutting down contact to once a week instead of twice so I wasn't surprised. When it came to gift giving, she handed me, my OH and my adult son a small parcel. When we opened them they each contained a pair of socks. We thanked her and carried on socialising and she sat there with a slapped arse look on her face before declaring 'well that didn't go to plan!'. We sort of did a joined 'eh!' in her direction. She then did this really odd uncomfortable manoeuvre (like really bad acting) where she taaa daaa produced our 'real' gifts.

It was totally bonkers, my OHs face was a picture, my son looked like he just wanted to escape back to his room and I was confused, struggling to think what she was hoping to achieve because I couldn't think of anything nice. I felt as though she was thinking, in her head, that we'd be disappointed with socks and so she would elate us with 'better' gifts and become a hero but none of us are materialistic or expectant and for us Christmas is about time off work and eating nice foods so we were happy with new socks.

She's brought it up a few times since, she's wanted to know what we really thought when we opened the socks and complained that it, whatever it is, didn't go to plan because of the way we reacted. I honestly feel like she's pretty much complaining that we didn't entertain her fantasy by not behaving in an ungrateful manner. It's times like this that remind me that I have no idea how this woman is wired

coconut I was a 'difficult' child too and I couldn't do anything right, although I knew for a fact I wasn't naughty. It's something that's haunted me right into my 40's usually manifesting in self blame. Then, the more I read and learned about dysfunctional families and narcissistic mothers the more I became proud of being labelled 'difficult'. For me it validated that even as a small child I knew somehow that things were not normal. I always suspected it but pushed my thoughts away as being mean or ungrateful. I'd spent a lot of my adult years trying to fix myself and my relationship with my parents for concern that it was me that had abnormal thoughts.

Right now I'm proud to have been difficult because that means she struggled to control me, by that I mean she struggled to get me to see things how she saw them. It also means that her punishments were all in vain. It means that I am me and have the strength of character to continue to be me. It means I've always instinctively known she was wired wrong so I'm not daft, stupid or thick after all, I never was.

Any thoughts on this scenario? DH is running London Marathon today so as a family we decided to make a weekend of it. It was also my DMs Birthday yesterday which was a milestone one. She had originally said she wouldn't to do her own thing so we only booked weekend after she had said this. Fast forward and she hasn't booked anything and she decides she too wants to go to London. She says she hasn't booked anywhere as she can't afford it but is happy to come for day (2.5 hour train journey each way, we live 1.5 hours train journey away from London) and could we meet up. So DH, and our 2 children with ASD went. Kids argued so much, winding each other up and fighting so DH and I had to split yesterday and do different activities. We all met back up and also met with DM and had lunch, probably not somewhere that DM would have chosen but my priority was kids. Mum seemed ok and I got restaurant to make a fuss, sparklers on dessert for example. DM was dropping hints about wanting to stay, she could go on park bench etc and that she wasn't thinking about going home.I just wasn't sure if we could sneak her into hotel which I felt was what she was expecting and also, if I'm completely honest felt that DM was gatecrashing. I felt compelled to 'give her a good time' when I was already struggling to manage kids but I kept this to myself. DM is a narc and our relationship can be difficult.We then all argued about what to do next and it culminated in DM, DH and DD going off to catch open top bus and DS and I just stood there. DS had wanted more time with me as he couldn't cope with DDs behaviour (hitting, pinching etc) and we had already had a lovely morning at one of the museums. I really enjoyed the time with him as my time is normally taken with DDs challenging behaviour. So DS and I went to Harrods which was his choice. He was also loving the tube experience too. DH etc didn't go on bus as too expensive and were trying to catch me and DS in Harrods but phone signal was rubbish so I didn't know this. DS had then had enough so went back to hotel. DH and DM are ringing and eventually we talk once signal back. Suddenly DM is catching a 6.30 train and no time to come back to hotel. She is upset at not being able to say bye. DH arrives back 1 hour later with DD. He is ok but explains he was very stressed and had to push my DM into making a decision. He was already fed up at having to split up for a second time and then the added stress of trying to work my DM out and can hold of me. It just seems a bloody disaster! I have come back home with kids today as DS still stressed from DD so unable to cheer DH on. AIBU to have not let DM stay with us? Am I being mean?!

"AIBU to have not let DM stay with us? Am I being mean?!"

No and no again.

She probably did want you to sneak her into the hotel as well.

The fact that your mother is a narcissist says it all really; she made it all about her.

It is not possible to have any sort of a relationship with such a person. I would now further lower all forms of contact with her and further raise your own boundaries. This is probably hard as she has encouraged you not to have any or at the very least to put your own self last with her first. She is really not doing any of you any good at all by her being at all around.

I would also suggest reading the daughters of narcissistic mothers website if you have not already done so.