"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Treacle I could have written your post! I feel exactly the same - awakened, and observing, and not prepared to do the usual placating and putting in lots of effort and performing... But not quite able to assert myself either. I really hope your visit goes well - when is it? The staying neutral thing is a great tactic, I'll try it out!

They will be here in a couple of hours. I stood my ground about what time they could come and have locked the door and left the keys in just in case (seems to be a common theme on here today!).

I keep reminding myself nothing has changed. Nothing bad has happened. It's just that I feel so different.

She is so unpredictable, it's impossible to know if this is going to be an aggressive suffocating barrage of shit visit, or a lovely chatty nice close friendly visit. I am pretty sure one of the current trigger topics is going to come up and I feel nervous about that.

And I'm worried I am building this up too much. That it's not that bad, that I am just winding myself up and looking for problems and making things out to be worse than it is? And then the guilt...

ChestOfDrawers I hope your visit goes ok. It's so hard, isn't it, to be resolute & strong in the face of such unpredictability. Add a bit of self-doubt into the mix & it's no wonder it's a daunting prospect! I sometimes try to imagine a lovely sparkly silver- blue balloon all around me, invisibly protecting me from all the confusing messages... it can work even if it sounds a bit out there! x

Wannabe I love that, I'm going to imagine me one now before they get here! Thanks

Chestofdrawers also sending you a big sparkly balloon bubble to help get you through. I love that image too and am going to pinch it for myself if nobody minds

Sparkly balloon bubbles for all!

Hi all, I've posted on here under a different name a couple of times over the last year or so. I have a horrible relationship with my mum and always have, we've been nc several times in the past but always kind of drift back.

My situation now is that I feel like she doesn't actually want to have contact with me and I'm really struggling with that. Dh and I (and dcs now) haven't been invited to any family events for over 10 years and she never comes to visit. She will usually answer if I call but very rarely calls me and she recently joked about not having a clue what my job is - I worked really hard to get to where I am and I love my job and have told her about it so this came across as her just not being interested which really stung. I had kind of accepted that this is just how it is and that if I wanted any relationship with her it would have to be this way or nothing at all but I am finding it harder and harder to deal with.

I invited her and my step dad over for Easter but she said they were just having a quiet one at home (step dad has recently had surgery and needs to rest) so I said words to the effect of that's a shame but I hope you have a good one and hopefully we can see you soon but then my db posted pictures on facebook of them all (m, sd, both brothers and their partners and dcs, grandparents, aunt and cousins) having an egg hunt and then a big roast dinner at my mum's house and I feel absolutely gutted. I don't see the point in saying anything because when I have tried in the past (exactly the same thing happens at Christmas every year) it becomes a big drama and she accuses me of being oversensitive and making a fuss over nothing and absolutely point blank refuses to consider how I feel. It was my birthday just before Easter and she sent a card and present in the post (we live 200 miles away) but didn't call or visit so it seems clear to me that this is the extent of the relationship she wants and I thought I had made my peace with that but now I just keep thinking about it and feeling terrible and I don't think I can do it anymore. My father is completely disinterested too and has been since we were little so being confronted with this image of the happy family that I am not allowed to be part of seems more unfair and I keep questioning what is wrong with me that neither parent cba with me or my dcs.

Does anyone have any advice on this situation? I have read lots of posts on here from people who have suffered awful abuse and it seems totally reasonable to not ever want to see their parents but with me it just seems that I am held at arm's length all the time and totally dismissed rather than suffering abuse? Is NC the only way? And how do you deal with your feelings around having no extended family?

Flump I'm so pleased for you that you've had your locks changed, and good on hubby for taking that decision out of your hands. It's no bad thing to be reminded that not everything is your sole responsibility, I'm sensing that's often something commonly felt by survivors of dysfunctional parents.

ChestOfDrawers I've seen my parents today, I was a little nervous but it was actually okay. I meet up with them in town these days rather than at my house which is so much better because it takes away any judging of my home plus makes my home a safe haven, as it should be. At first mum pretended that she hadn't seen me, I saw she had, I'm not that daft, so I got my own drink and went to sit with them. I was completely boring, said I had no news, nothing exciting had happened etc etc I addressed my dad a bit more than usual and I asked about what colour grey hair runs in each side of the family which turned out to be a good move because everyone was interested in hearing what everyone else had to say. If every time could be like that I'd be a happy bunny.

The only thing of note/caution is that mum told me, when dad wasn't around, that she'd talked him into getting their house valued. The last time she talked about this she had plans in her head to move to the same village as me. I'll have to watch that space BUT when I told my OH he said they're fucked if they think we're looking after them when they become unable as we can barely look after ourselves OH doesn't know the half of it but he gets the gist.

I hope your visit went well xx

I felt 'lucky' today, and I know that it shouldn't come down to luck, it should by rights be a given that spending time with family should be naturally pleasant or fun or nice but for now, I'll settle with feeling lucky.

Eggsellent Being ostricised by your own family must hurt like hell, I'm so sorry.

I picked up on you mentioning about your job and your mum making a comment about it. I'm wondering if what you do, or what you're perceived to do makes your mum feel inferior. Narcissistic people don't like to feel inferior, even if it's in their own heads, I'd often hear my female grandparents and my mum say 'who does she think she was is' in that tone of voice and the reason was nothing more than they had accomplished something that they hadn't or had a title in their career. It stank of jealousy, even when I was a small child I could smell it.

I think what you do about it ultimately depends on whether you want to remain in contact or not.

My OH has always said that just because you're related it doesn't mean you have to like them.

eggs I'm sorry you're feeling shit. I wish I had some answers but I don't unfortunately

My only suggestion is to perhaps step away from Facebook as that way madness lies...(IME anyway). You can't unsee what you've seen, but you can try to remind yourself that people post the image they want the world to see, not necessarily what is going on in reality. If your parents can be such arseholes to you, their own daughter, it is highly unlikely they are able to have a genuine, loving relationship with the rest of your family. So as much as they post pics of a perfect happy family, you know the truth is probably very different.

But I know it's all easier said than done. And I wish I could take my own advice

Good advice about Facebook, AKA Facebrag

A small unrelated anecdote... my boss posted a huge OTT thank you to her OH for surprising her with a weekend away... Looks good etc. Plenty of likes and whatnot for her wonderful husband and life.

When I saw her on the Monday morning she was furious and stressed out because being whisked away meant that when she arrived home on the Sunday she had to immediately do heaps of washing and drying, meal planning and shopping and she felt totally under pressure. In reality she did not enjoy her 'surprise'.

It was a stark lesson that Facebook isn't real xx

Thanks for the advice! I have already unfollowed them so I don't have it shoved in my face so to speak but it doesn't seem to help because every time I speak to them I hear about something else that I was excluded from. I don't speak to any of them as much these days but I still really want to be in touch with them and would hate to lose contact

Eggs That sounds really painful All I can say is to repeat someone else that what you hear and what you see in photos isn't the real picture. A dysfunctional toxic family is dysfunctional and toxic with all the family members, so while it might look and sound perfect, the reality is it isn't. I know that doesn't stop it hurting though.

Treacle That's great it went well, well done!! Good work being boring Hope you're feeling OK about it all this evening and unwinding from the tension of it.

My visit went well. So well that I felt huge guilt for all of the stuff I have been thinking about - it isn't true, they are nice, what on earth am I talking about, they aren't toxic in any way, I am so horrible, I am looking for problems where there aren't any.

I've reflected on it more since, and I think what it is, is that the drama is around my siblings right now so there's not much emotional energy left for me iyswim. So I didn't get much negative stuff. One of my siblings though is massively scapegoat right now. I feel so bad for them. I wish I had stuck up for then more today. I was quite neutral and passive and allowed it. I want to help them but I worry I'm the wrong person to help since I am part of the dysfunction.

Got such a bad headache Sorry for posting so much lately. Hope you are all having nice relaxing evenings, dysfunction free!

chest glad it wasn't too awful for you visit wise at least.

I luckily avoided a fall out over other people's facebook posts but only because DM ended up in hospital. My sister is withholding information again, in that whilst DM is too ill to talk to me she's telling DF he's not to tell me things and tells my aunt she's keeping me informed when she isn't. This keeps cropping up and when everyone goes back to full health its all my fault because I won't roll over to sister. Except even though I don't want dealings with my sister if the shoe was on the other foot I'd keep her informed. I may not want to deal with her by our parents are still her parents, and they wouldn't want her shut out. But that's the stinger. They don't mind me being shut out. Then wonder why I keep a distance.

Batshit is perfect!

Everything has to be for the children, so the adult may not derive any enjoyment from it

That is so strange - I always say exactly the same thing about my mother! To the point where she will try to take decisions out of my hands (about my DC) because it's 'best for the children'. She unilaterally decided she was having genetic testing for something that may or may not have run in the family but as yet there's no cure for. I personally wouldn't have wanted to know - or at least would have wanted the time to decide for myself. But she apparently saw a counsellor and then made the decision 'for the grandchildren' to have the tests then broadcast it to the whole town.

She also waits until the end of a school holiday then will say 'Oh those poor kids, the holiday's nearly over and they've not done anything nice, just been cooped up in their rooms'. Last summer I was told this after I'd taken them on a lovely 2 week holiday and had also taken them on numerous days out to the seaside, cinema, theme parks, camping in the garden....

Funnily enough when I was a child I literally never did anything. We could never go on holiday because every time my dad would suggest it my mum would be too stressed/too ill (headaches, stomach aches, etc)/too worried about leaving her parents to go anywhere.

It's so wierd, now I'm realising there is a name for the way my mother treats people, I'm remembering so many things from my childhood Nd they all fit.

Is it a thing for a narc mother to appear to be a doting grandmother?

On the surface she is always worried about them and wants to be involved in everything they do. She has pictures of them all over her house and they are all she talks about to neighbours, friends, etc.

But she has literally never taken them out anywhere despite being perfectly healthy, relatively young and having a car/money/etc. She just likes to complain that I don't do enough with them

She is also perfectly happy to have one of her rages in front of them.

Hi BadTasteFlump

Is it a thing for a narc mother to appear to be a doting grandmother?

Yes. However, such people always either undervalue or overvalue the relationship with the grandchild. They see them merely as tools to be used and a source of narcissistic supply.

Again all her decisions made unilaterally are all about her and her alone. You are all mere bit part players at the centre of her own universe.

You all need to stay away from your mother and actually have no contact with her at all. Your mother was not a good parent to you nor is she a decent example of a grandparent to your children. She will harm your children in not too dissimilar ways to how you have been harmed by her as well.

Re dcs relationship with grandmother, I had a conversation with my hypnotherapist about the need to allow dcs to develop their own relationship with & opinions about her.
Not sure if I agree or not, but I just thought it was an interesting idea! x

Hippy yes that's interesting but could backfire couldn't it?

I kind or consider myself 'lucky' being the 'scapegoat'. I, and therefore my DC, have much less contact with my mother than my 'golden' sister does. So my DC can go weeks not seeing their GM and don't even notice or mention it. My nieces/nephews are crying at the door whenever my mother leaves them as their lives are so entwined with her

If these people were not good parents to you, what makes you think they would at all be good grandparent figures to your children?. Toxic people more often than not become toxic grandparents as well.

And, horrible as it is to see, she already seems to have set up one of ,y sister's DC as the scapegoat and the other as the golden child (pretty sick when they are still all infant school age...).

BadTaste

As the scapegoat I would agree that you are in a "better" (if you can call it that) position that your golden child sister and her associated golden children. The role of the golden child is certainly not one without price but your sister is too unaware to realise that there is and will be a price to be paid. And not just by her either, her children as well.

I would be giving your sister and her children a wide berth as well.

BadtasteFlump,

re your comment:-

"And, horrible as it is to see, she already seems to have set up one of ,y sister's DC as the scapegoat and the other as the golden child (pretty sick when they are still all infant school age...)".

Again its typical for narcissists to do this. She started to do that far earlier in their lives as well. Her actions will likely destroy the sibling relationship they have particularly when they are older. She will turn one sibling against the other and the parent as well.

The siblings(my sisters DC) already don't get on at all. The one my mother favours is 'perfect' in my mothers eyes and her sister is intensely jealous of her and takes her anger out on the favoured sister at every opportunity. I do find it hard to be around them as it is very much like the way my sister and I were as children.

I do take a lot of comfort in the fact that my DC genuinely get on well and are kind to each other. I hope that means that I am managing to minimise my mother's influence and break the cycle to some extent.