"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Yes it does make sense Radley

I always see DH as quite a resilient person - but I know for a fact that I was a complete miserable old cow leading up to having to see my mother yesterday, and he probably got the brunt of it

Yes exactly to the perfect parent feeling from me too! "Please don't let me be like her" has been a recurrent wail when I'm having a wobble...
Not sure how to deal with the concept of letting them "get away with it", tbh.
I'm currently in a situation where NC is not a realistic option, & contact is high due proximity. So either I waste all my emotional energy & a lot of time going over & over all the issues I have with her from my earliest memory, or I need to somehow float above it all & just observe without really connecting or engaging. But then I get all tied up in knots because she is a nightmare a lot of the time & I just can't be doing with all the drama & why should she just be allowed to be so difficult ("oh you know what I'm like!" Tinkly irritating as f* laugh) but I just can't seem to let it all go. I keep harking back to the past & then I project it into the future & hey presto, I feel crap! Any thoughts?
On the plus side, it's a beautiful day! x

checkedstripes

I would ignore your Dad's birthday message entirely and block his number from your phone. You have been in no contact with them for 4 years for very good reason.

It is designed simply to draw you back in. He failed abjectly as a parent and still does; he failed to protect you from the abuse his wife meted out. He is both a bystander and a weak man. Is he still with your mother?.

Wannabe I wish I had the answer to that too - my mother lives in the same town as me and the rest of my extended family seem to pretty much revolve around her, so it would be really difficult to physically distance myself from her long term. Having said that when she is having one of her extended sulks I don't have to worry about it and she makes a point of keeping away from me - as she is now. I should really enjoy the peace while it lasts.

I keep reading is that you need to learn to disengage with a narcissist on anything other than a completely superficial level. So whenever she decides to waft back in to my life I am really going to try to remember that. It's so hard though - and in some ways I am so fucking bored of the whole subject of whatever my mother's latest fucking explosion is, I would love to be able to just forget the whole load of batshit soup and have her decide to sulk permanently.

Isn't batshit just the best word ever?!!! So perfectly describes the whole... batshit thing! x

Absolutely

Ah shit I'm panicking a little. Was supposed to have parents visiting at the weekend but at the last minute they have changed it to tomorrow. Can't really explain details without risking it being outing but it's another example of how I am not important at all right now. Feel a bit pissed off about it. It also means my DH won't be there which makes me more vulnerable and less likely to be able to assert myself. Trying to remember that nothing has changed from their point of view. Even though for me it feels like the whole world has changed. Any tips on how to make it a good visit?!

treacle Thank you for the link, really interesting and helpful. Your ideas about trying to improve the relationship are thought provoking. With this sibling I don't think it is possible as I honestly don't think they want me in their life, which is incredibly hurtful and hard to accept. They basically just callously reject me, and I desperately try to get any kind of communication with them
It's pathetic but I'm scared of losing them (although I suppose I already did, if I ever 'had' them). With my other sibling I think the door is open and we are already working on it together and starting to talk about the family. So that's hopeful.

chestOfDrawers i've got my first lone visit since I had my eyes opened too. I'm still in some sort of observer mode though and i'm not mentally strong enough to cope with being assertive but I can't go through a facade of placating just to keep up appearances either. I'm going to tell the truth when she arrives, by that I mean i'm going to say that I feel drained and i've not slept well so I might be a little vacant.

I did read somewhere, and this fits in with my mum (she's is an emotional vampire), that the best thing to do is stay quite neutral as in don't talk about anything exciting or glum, just be very boring. That won't be difficult if I embrace my tiredness. I'll just add that it's not unusual for me to be tired at the end of the week yet i'd normally make a big effort to entertain them but i'm not doing it today, i'm going to be the real me, tired and boring.

Good luck with yours, I hope you find some coping mechanism.

Thanks for your responses (and the birthday wishes!). Yesterday was quite shite in all honesty. I haven't replied as I'm not sure what would happen next. Attila he is still with my mother, despite knowing. I think in all honesty my family believe I'm exaggerating the behaviour and its impact on me. My brother watched her physically abuse me more than once but he's only ever admitted it once, when really drunk. I do think our upbringing is a big reason why he's had substance and drink issues (like my mother).

When people ask about why we put up with the abuse so long in to our own adulthood, it is hard to answer. Part of it is because we dont want to cause hurt ourselves. Partly because of the reaction of other people. My mother came from a large family who believed all she said about herself. I know they would have condemned me if I had walked away.

She remarried and I had to listen to her reinventing the life we had before she married him. My amazing dad who she bullied and criticised constantly, who never did a thing right suddenly became a saint. I am sure she did this to keep the new husband in his place. Like an idiot I sat there listening to all the things she supposededly did. So heaven knows what fairy stories she told when I was absent.

I tried my best for them both but it was never good enough. There I would be, week after week, visiting doing everything and being told how lucky they where that they had good friends as family do nothing. Of course once the Alzheimer's kicked in an her husband's had an amputation all those friends disappeared into thin air. 5 months in hospital and he never had one visitor except for me. 5 years in a care home and only one cousin visited my mother.

I really admire people who find the courage to walk away or maintain low contact. I doubt if many have any peace with the decision though because that evil worm is so firmly burrowed inside telling how bad you are. My brother managed it, but I think he had already detached from the time he was about 10.

Hello , been on this thread a few times, name changed in between. Thinking of all of you who is still going through abuse, hope you find the strength to end it one day. I know it's not easy, it took me til I turned 50 to do something about it. No contact with parents.

I'm going through a particularly awful phase, and want to ask if anybody has, or is going through this also?

Since going NC, I feel I'm becoming to sound really rude to people.
I question things that I would never question before. I'm also calling people on it if they are being nasty and just mainly getting into arguments. I don't honestly like myself at all.

For example, my workload has increased recently and I questioned my colleague about it. We normally have a great working relationship, and get through things together, so to see she doubled the workload (she is above me) had me asking' how long is this going to last?' That's way too much'. I felt mortified afterwards that I'd shouted at her, let alone, questioned her. I never would have done that before. It feels like a new person is emerging from me, and I don't like her very much..😢

Astrantia - I had same experience coming out of the fog. I realised that nanny of my friendships and other relationships had formed around traits I'd developed growing up. I had to reevaluate a lot. I had to start behaving differently. Sometimes I over compensated and lashed out. It's hard working out your new operating rules but I think unavoidable if you really want change. I don't think querying your increased workload is bad. Actually it's good. But you need to be zble to do it ghe right way. No shouting znd dlso understanding that you can disagree and stay friends. The last one I'm still working on. I find it really hard as my parents had a very 'either with us or our enemy' approach.

Astrantia, I get what you're saying about having no peace with the decision.

I feel like I'm still striving to prove to myself I'm not the 'stupid child' they think I am, but what keeps me going is knowing none of it was my fault.

Sorry for what you are going through with your Mum

Thanks lasttimearound,

I apologised to my colleague about shouting at her, so at least I recognised that I'd done wrong.
I think also, I'm afraid of sounding like the very person I don't want to sound like. I couldn't bear that.

Abit I found that, when I finally found my assertivrness, I wanted to use it all the time. The word "no" was such a relieving concept to me, and it took a while for it to become "normal". I suspect that it will balance out eventually. 💟

I have been on another thread for the last day or so about the DaddyOFive videos on YouTube and how it's child abuse. One of the comments and replies to the video discusses the responses of people who say "but this kid will be so much stronger when he grows up because of these parents" and "it'll make him a better parent to his own children BECAUSE of his experience". They said a really inspiring thing about people who have been involved in mistreatment of all kinds. He said that people don't become better people and better parents because of the treatment they received; they become better people in-spite of the treatment they received.

For the people on this thread who worry they are going to turn into their parents or family member, guilt when they shout at their children, or general feelings of inadequacy it's not you. You have too much empathy with your children to ever make them feel like you did and you will have the clear cut boundaries and rules you needed growing up and didn't get. All children misbehave and have moments where you think in your head "you little horror" but that's normal. They get told off when they're being that little horror because they need to know where the line is but we are never going to call them horrible or disgusting or ugly or say we wish they were never born. We are going to tell them what they did wrong and why we are telling them off.

Every single person here is a wonderful person IN SPITE of the way they were brought up and treated. ❤️😘^^

I say this as my child is sat growling if anyone goes near his toys because he's decided he's a dragon today. I've dropped the ball somewhere along the line 😂

Morning all

Well DH and I were talking about my situation again last night and I made a decision that I'm now wavering on - I would really appreciate some outside opinions please...

M is currently having one of her sulks after I stood up for myself when she had a rage at me at the weekend. The sulks typically last a couple of weeks, after which she will time a visit to coincide with when there's either nobody at home and leaves a lovey dovey note and cash for the DC, or comes when my eldest has got home from college (he gets home before me) - so she kind of gets her way in without having to see me first. She then acts like everything is fine and what's happened isn't mentioned again. She has had her own key to my house for years - I gave her one years ago when she used to babysit sometimes in my house (she doesnt anymore).

Anyway she regularly uses her key to let herself in, if there's no one at home and she's 'passing', or even if we're here - she never knocks, she just appears in the house as if she lives here. It drives us nuts - I've made a point of locking the door and leaving the key in. One time I did this and I didn't hear her at the door as I was in the garden. She was so determined to get in that she forced my key out with hers by ramming the lock and broke it. When I came through and saw what she'd done she denied it .

DH hates that he can't sit heree in his boxers on a Sunday morning because she might walk in any minute.

Anyway last night I suggested we change the lock on the front door at the weekend and he agreed it's the right thing to do. It will help me not feel like I'm on edge in a week or so waiting to get home and find her sitting on my sofa like nothing's happened. It will hopefully give her a message that this is not her house and she cannot just let herself in whenever she wants to. It will also help me be prepared for when she does try to come in and pretend nothing is wrong. I will have time to decide if I want to see her, to take a deep breath, answer the door and say that If she's to come into my house now she has to behave herself because the things she has said are disgusting (or words to that effect...).

The trouble is I'm wavering. I know in reality she will freak out when she realises we've changed the lock. She will probably keep trying her key u til she manages to break the lock again. Or will freak out in some form or other. Long and short of it is, I know she won't realise she has to act like a reasonable person and it will cause more shit.

But what's the alternative? I can't live my life like this anymore. I do not want to be tip toeing around in my own house waiting for somebody who treats me like dirt to appear as if she owns the place. And it kind of broke my heart last night that DH admitted he's felt uncomfortable for years about my M treating our house as her own, but never said anything as he didn't want to put me in an awkward position.

Help!

I know this all sounds incredibly fucked up btw

Complex Assertiveness is so hard isn't it! I'm often still not assertive enough. But when I am, like you I can go overboard and I worry that I've just been rude, not assertive. I worry that I am being like her. It's very hard to get the balance but I think it gets easier the more you practise. I think it's OK to mess up and apologise. Everyone makes mistakes and as long as you own them and apologise and try something different, it's OK. All part of this process. Do you have safe people to practise with? Eg a partner or friend, who you could try it out with and get their feedback. Or even roleplay scenarios.

Flump From my perspective, changing the locks sounds like a very good idea, and something that is important for your family. Would it help to concentrate on meeting your family's need for privacy? Rather than worrying about your mum's need for... Well whatever it is she's doing! I sympathise with the fear of her reaction. Could you make a plan and practise what you would say if she reacts in this way or that way? At least then you might feel more prepared?

*BadTaste if you happen to live in the Stokr on Trent area (long shot) DH will change the damn thing for free.

Ah bless you allroads - that's so kind

It's out of my hands anyway - DH just took an early lunch break and turned up with a new lock & has changed it... not his trade but he's quite handy with diy, particularly when he's wanting something done

So now as well as feeling quite excited that I can run around naked all weekend if I fancy it I am also shitting myself waiting for WW3 to start

@badtaste it's your house so you should walk around Naked! Good on your DH for cracking on with it immediately and helping you as much as her can. He will be rewarded on Sunday by being able to sit in his pants all morning.

I expect you will have some fall out from the sounds of things but you'll at least have time to prepare for it if she can't get in and confront you. Big hugs ❤️

Thank you plain 😘

Flump. DH has threatened to start doing naked yoga if my mum lets herself in again...
Changing the locks seems like a very reasonable thing to do- it is your house, not hers. If you wouldn't let yourself in to her house, she shouldn't be doing it in yours. Stay strong & sure of your reasons for doing this - maybe prepare your explanation & just stick to that. Above all, don't feel guilty- you have the right to your own life without worrying about uninvited & unwelcome visits! x