"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Unravelling the crap we were dealt is hard really bloody hard. But Im with you on being firmly determined not to pass this dysfunction on. I have a very good counsellor which really helps me.

AllRoads,

I know I shouldn't, but it is a total block for me.

The power she still has over me is just unreal.

I feel so stupid. I should be more assertive. Paralysed sometimes though.

I just wondered if any over 50s had to deal with this, as I can see a lot of other poster's issues carried on from childhood. Mine didn't. It started after Dad died. So painful.

AllRoads I would say that as long as your kids know that you love them unconditionally and unstintingly and that they are safe with you (the odd shout won't matter), then it's ok. (I do hope that's the case, anyway!). You cannot equate picking up Lego with what was done to you. x
mixedupchick oh that sounds awful. I hope the counselling helps and that you are able to distance yourself from her. I know it's so hard when rationally you can see that their behaviour is unacceptable and damaging, but you keep coming back to the fact that she's your mother. (If you find the magic answer please let me know - I'm really struggling with this too) x

Allroads About being a 'good' mum or not. It's a worry but all I can say from my experience is that my son (20,s) doesn't feel guilty about things like ... leaving a mess, saying he doesn't like his dinner, asking for favours and so on. I'd have never have dared to leave things out of place or 'criticised' the meal I was given or asked if I could have a lift with something. I would not have dared. But he does and it's fine, he'll clean up if I ask but he doesn't feel guilted, we'll discuss what what he did and didn't like about dinner without me taking offence and if I can't help out when he asks he's totally reasonable about it. I think when you're a reasonable thoughtful and caring person, as opposed to oppressive and demanding, that your kids end up ok.

I will say though that there have been times here and there when he's been thoughtless or selfish or when I thought he really didn't like me, but that's okay, It's normal for a child to give off vibes that theyre not totally loving their mum all the time, they have other things going on. Not so nice at the time as you can imagine but I'd worry more if he was always pandering to me, now that would be unhealthy (in my experience & therefore opinion). As my OH puts it, he'd rather sit through the occasional strop than have a Norman Bates on our hands.

Thanks all.

Hippychick if I find the answer will let you know! But I don't think there is one unless it comes from me. I alone will have to distance myself, and as you say, it is such a contradiction between what I need to do for my self preservation, her behaviour, and the fact that she is Mum.

So bloody awful.

mixedup It sounds rotten what you're going through. I never knew parents could bring so much upset to their adult children until I read the things I've read on here. The only experience I've had that was similar was with my grandma, I was her choice of family career, golden child if you will. That was until my dad retired (her son) and suddenly all I got was abuse. She started acting up after 15 years of caring for her because she wanted her son, not me, and he was now available. After one last outburst from I left her, drove straight round to my dads and told him I couldn't do it anymore, I said that she wants him not me so he'll have to deal with it. Fortunately my dad stepped up and started to run around after her but she died about 8 months later.

Do I feel guilty? Yes, and no. At first I convinced myself that the grandma I had known 'died' a long time ago. I felt, at times, a little guilty that I should have done more especially as she was an old lady BUT looking back and scrutinising it it was me that wanted to see it through to the end, not her, she made it clear that she didn't want me, she wanted my dad, her son. I tell myself that it's not about me, it's about what she wanted in the last part of life and in her death, and she got what she wanted. That, and that alone gives me comfort.

I don't know if that gives you a different perspective or if it'll help. Xx

Treacle,

Thanks for that perspective. I think you might be on to something there. Maybe Mum wanted my Dad back, and resented me for still being alive and him dead. I really dunno, but it is something to bring to the therapist for discussion.

It is getting worse by the day. I have two siblings who get some rough words thrown at them alright, but they acknowledge that it is NOTHING like what she is putting ME through. They say to not visit her for a month and see. They are thankfully on my side.

I am seriously tempted. But my biggest worry is that she will die during that month. I will have such a ton of guilt on my shoulders won't I?

Another one for the therapist. Jeez this is going to be a long road. But hopefully there will be light at the end of the tunnel. I have to focus on that. But I waver a lot.

Am now going to catch up on the thread - looks like its been busy tonight! But just wanted to say I'm home and got through the family do ok. Had a nice chin wag with everybody else and I needn't have worried about having to be polite to my mum - from the moment I arrived it was very clear she had no intention of acknowledging or speaking to me and sat there with a face like a slapped arse all night .

Surely any normal person would be trying to be nice and make up for the horrible things she said at the weekend, but clearly that's not her style.

BadTaste pity people like that. You, unlike them, have self-awareness, compassion and the ability to treat people like people...not shit.

Radley

I am so glad I found this thread

Yay for you, BadTaste! Don't forget to reward yourself tomorrow... x

BadTaste me too.

Hi makealist. That doesn't particularly fun - at least you got through it and it's over now! That's brave of you to exit the whatsapp group. That must be hard, not hearing anything from them, even if that's what you expected. When I think about doing all those things I feel so scared of the void it would leave. How are you finding it replacing the space/ time/ energy that they took? I love what you wrote about anger being the inner grown up saying it's wrong, that is so helpful and I will think about that a lot.

Yes, I am thinking over the relationships with the whole family and realising that every individual relationship is toxic, as well as the dynamic as a whole, as well as narc parent. I was thinking this evening about one of my siblings. They just reject me time and time again, and I chase after them desperately. It's pathetic and I need to stop it, but if I do then I will lose the relationship. I suppose the truth is though I already lost it a long time ago, if I ever had it. That's really hard stuff to admit and accept though.

I am mulling over whether I should stop playing all these games, stop chasing them all, stop tolerating all their shitty behaviour. But it's terrifying because what if I lose them all? What if I get permanently pushed out? What if I let go of the fantasy and look around and the reality is that there's nothing good there?

ChestOfDrawers I haven't got siblings but I was thrown into the mix when it came to my grandma, she placed me 2nd, I was under my uncle yet over my dad and my cousins. When my uncle died I moved into pole position. For many years I thought I was her favourite because she loved me the most but then it turned out that I was only there because I was the most useful. The realisation hurt like hell but this was before I understood that in dysfunctional families 'children' are viewed as being there to attend to their parents needs.

This is worth a quick read... A quote from the link

Siblings Not Encouraged to Be Close. In healthy families, we encourage our children to be loving and close to each other. In narcissistic families, children are pitted against each other and taught competition. There is a constant comparison of who is doing better and who is not. Some are favored or seen as "the golden child," and others become the scapegoat for a parent's projected negative feelings. Siblings in narcissistic families rarely grow up feeling emotionally connected to each other.

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-legacy-distorted-love/201105/the-narcissistic-family-tree

I don't know what your sister is like, how badly she's been affected or how much self awareness she has but if you think there's some hope for you both then maybe (?) it could be worth working on an emotional connection rather than one where you're just doing stuff for her. A bit of undistracted time out for a coffee in a cafe, find out a bit about each other, have a wind down and a relax and see if you can bond.

Sorry, I assumed sister but it could be brother. xx

I spent most of my life worrying about whether I was a good mum. Like many others I learnt how not to be a mother. I have enough self knowledge, now that I am an old lady, to know that I am not a spiteful person.

We all make mistakes when raising our children. Too hard sometimes, too soft others, shout too much, don't discipline enough incase we repeat what was done to us. My kids never had to hide from me cowering under the table afraid to cry or wet themselves. They could talk to me about anything. They never had to hear me criticising them with venom and nastiness. I never embarrassed them in front of other people by criticing their behaviour, point out their developing bodies are share 'looks' with other adults when they spoke. Those that have not been in an abusive relation, will read all that and think 'well why would you do those things. Not doing those things does not make you a good mother'

What makes you a good mother is allowing your children to feel safe and loved. Do that and they will not even notice the things you get wrong. Self awareness, recognising that you are not your parent and that their parenting style taught you a very hard but important lesson.

For background I was still being bullied by her when she died at 95. My 3 kids tell me that they don't know why I looked after her all those years and put up with her, as they witnessed what she was like. They also told me many years ago that they hope they can give their kids the same childhood that they had.

I have 8 GKs growing up loved and fearless. You can break the cycle. Sorry this is so long.

Sorry this is so long.

Oh god no it's fantastic!
I think of our parenting doubts as being the final big gaslight - it's the other side of their "sorry I wasn't perfect" defence - for me anyway, I feel a bit like I have to be the perfect parent in order not to turn into my mum, or at least a perfectly patient parent. Just a small example but I feel guilty that my DD has learned not to kiss me with a face full of ketchup - I feel intensely uncomfortable to know she's tailoring her behaviour to get affection from me, and yet surely it's important to learn that other people have boundaries about physical affection and you need to respect them? I feel like I can't tell the difference between my kids adapting healthily and unhealthy adaptation. I think what also doesn't help is that my memories of my childhood are very one dimensional and unemotional - I know intellectually that there was daily abuse but I can't remember how it felt. I've been back in my hometown this week on holiday and I was amazed now, revisiting places, the emotions of the time are coming back to me and it was mostly fear and guilt with a side order of hopelessness. Like, all through my memories of being at university and everything. (I feel like the kid in that film Inside Out - it's like all my memories are tinged with sadness and fear now, but it feels better, because to the extent that I was unable to access those emotions attached to those memories, I was less of a full person). Anyway I think if I can't recall that feeling of fear in my childhood memories it's no wonder I can look at say one instance of shouting at the kids and wonder whether this is what abuse feels like. I don't know what abuse feels like, not fully, I don't have access to those emotions yet.

Just read the link about the family tree - so much of that resonates with me. My sister and I have never been close - when we both lived at home we really didn't get on - and I've looked back over the years, particularly since having DC of my own, and wondered why my mother never got involved to try and make things better. But the more I read, the more I realise that she did get involved, in various ways, but only to make things more difficult

I wonder if I could have some advice. I've lurked for a long time but haven't posted. I haven't talked to my parents for about four years. My mother has always been exceptionally difficult and frankly hateful towards me. I know that as I'm the only girl she struggling with me growing up as she got older - she viewed me as competition rather than as a daughter. I decided after a period in which she was incredibly abusive (I'd wake to to texts saying 'I bet you wish I'd kill myself) to stop contact. In all honesty, I was angry at my dad as well for allowing her to have been so shitty for so long.

This morning, my dad sent me a birthday message (as its today) and frankly it's made me really upset. I do miss my dad but I don't know what to do or even if ishould reply. I'd really, really appreciate some advice.

Check I'm no expert having only recently had my eyes opened to all this myself - hopefully someone with wise words will be along soon.

But just wanted to say happy birthday and I hope, whatever you decide to do, that you manage to enjoy your birthday

Checkedstripes I think probably there's no right answer, just whatever feels right to you. Maybe a non-committal acknowledgement as a halfway house?
Happy birthday, & don't let this spoil your day! x

I have to be the perfect parent in order not to turn into my mum

I just sobbed a little at that. EXFUCKINGACTLY! I hear you!

However, surely the fact that we are worried about this proves how much we care for our babies! As I said yesterday, we are good parents simply because we have more experience than others in how NOT to behave.

Me - again - sorry

I was talking it all over with DH last night and I have a bit of a dilemma. Going on previous experience I know what will happen now with my mother. She throws one of her 'fits' - saying something horrible, storming out, etc, then sulks for as long as she can bear to not be in the spotlight - usually two or three weeks. Then if I make no attempt to contact her, she will turn up as if nothing has happened and be all sweetness and light for a while, as long as I don't mention the previous 'incident. Then all is well (ish) for a few weeks whilst I'm waiting for the next time, which always comes along sooner or later. It may sound a bit nuts but it is clear cycle of events which has been happening over and over for years - and - I feel ashamed to admit - I didn't even realise this until recently. Actually I think over the last few years the 'incidents' have been steadily increasing for some reason.

So anyway, DH said last night I need to prepare myself for when she next turns up as if nothing has happened and expects me to do the same. Do I want to just carry on as I normally do, enabling her behaviour, I suppose, or do I want to be ready to act in a different way?

And the answer is I have no idea. I know there is no point in bringing up whatever she has done wrong because she never, ever accepts responsibility and I am left feeling frustrated and upset. But if I let her get away with her behaviour, I equally feel frustrated and upset that I'm letting her get away with it.

So what do I do?

I have to be the perfect parent in order not to turn into my mum

Here here from me too

What I find confusing is that for a long time, I kind of believed that my mum was the perfect parent. No mother was ever more 'present', as in always there, in the middle of ever single family occasion - and always being very loud and funny and the centre of attention, obviously. And in some ways you could say she's the perfect grandparent - she always wants to be heavily involved in her GC's lives and has practically moved in with my Dsis to be with her DC as much as possible. From the outside she could be Mary Poppins.

That is until somebody stops towing the line and she has one of her rages.

BadTaste it's a dilemma I agree.

When I went NC with the last sister I was in contact with, it was after DH sat me down and told me he couldn't stand to see it all happening again: she sounds exactly like your mom.

I never realized it was affecting him too.

God, I hope all this makes sense!