"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

PrincessMolly. Feel better soon.

Thank you Hippy, that was really helpful to read. Smiling sweetly past her left ear whilst mentally telling her to f off helps made me laugh, but is actually a really good way to deal with her malevolence. Still think she shouldn't be able to get away with it, but it really isnt worth the upset of challenging her I guess.

I feel for you @princess , it's like the stiff upper lip mentality has been taken one step too far. No one should suffer in pain these days, it's not the 1800's and being in agony doesn't make you soft or hysterical or any of those things, and you're at risk of things getting worse by trying to put up with it. I know that when you have tooth out you can get a complication called dry socket and it's unbelievably painful. Maybe google that and see if it fits what yours is like.

FWIW I've already got a plan for when mine starts about illness/pain, and she will, its in her DNA. I'm gonna tell her I'm in pain/ill, that I'm not soft but I'm no martyr and if I can take a pill or a cream or rest up until I feel better than I'd be a fool not to, and I'm no fool either. Hopefully that will shut her up, she like a lot more of other mothers I've read about likes to play the martyr but doesn't like being called one.

Hope you get your tooth/mouth sorted, a sore mouth really is the pits. I really do feel for you xx

Hector I try very hard to keep in mind that quote about keeping hold of anger being like drinking poison & expecting the other person to die... I struggle hugely with the "letting her get away with it" concept for so so many things, going right back as far as I can remember, but at 75, she's not going to change... I'm working on how I react to her rather than expecting her to fulfil my (pointless) lovely mother fantasies!!! (All good in theory, bloody hard in practice...!) x

hippy I love the smiling technique, I'm so going to try that

This is an odd one. Usually when I meet up with my mum most of her conversation revolves around bitching, judging and criticising people. My given 'role' (encouraged by my mum) is counteracting her opinions of people, not in an argumentative way, we don't argue, it's more in a putting the other side across way and it's like she enjoys it, I've spotted her grinning. She umms and ahhhs but then the next time we meet it's more of the same, often about the same people and similar things they've said or done. It's like she's far too invested in other people's business. I'm curious if this is a 'thing'. I suppose I've assumed that she has too much time on her hands and her mind isn't being occupied enough but thinking that she might actually be enjoying it makes me feel sort of dirty if what I'm doing is encouraging her, it makes me complicit.

Has anyone come across this type of behaviour before?

Treacle thats interesting what you say about having a "role".
Immediately after reading that I thought about how I seem to wallow in negativity and self doubt almost automatically with my mum while she tells me I am slow/need to belt up etc.
I am not like this with anyone else - in fact I am known for being very laid back and having a good sense of humour.
If there have been times where I haven't wallowed, my mum has - if either of us aren't wallowing, there's not much conversation! Wow

Teepish I used to behave like that around my mum, still do at times but not as much and not as much especially lately. I've changed my life so much over these past 12 months, all for the better, it's made me more confident and I can feel I'm giving off vibes that I don't 'need' her.

Do you think it's a role you've been given, someone for your mum to share darkness and despair with or do you think you've adopted the role, maybe so you feel a connection or maybe even to project that you're vulnerable for some reason?

Looking back I think mine was a mixture. I went along with moaning & whining because that was the only thing we seemed to have in common but also she encouraged it, she never looks on the bright side about anything so the conversation 'naturally' seemed to end up depressing. I spotted it and opened my eyes when the subject turned to my son and felt like she was trying to make me think bad things about him. I can't work out though if it's my mum being miserable or if it's manipulative. Xx

The worst thing for me is my Mum has 'seen the light' so with my youngest Sister, it's all about being the text book amazing Mum. She talks about my sister like she's the second coming. Oh I have such amazing Mother, special Mother /Daughter time more precious than words can explain. So out of all of us she's decided with 1 she's going to try and do it right.

It feels like an insult when I see my sister in these posts. I know it's all part of narc behaviour.

I really need to find my toxic parents book, or at least get it again on my kindle.

For me it's worse having parents that are alive that don't give a shit, over say if they weren't here.

I see so many mother / daughter or father / daughter moments that leave me feeling so jealous. Like some people don't know how lucky they are.

May I ask people here how you disengage emotionally from a dysfunctional family? I feel haunted by their bad behaviour. They live on the other side of the world ( which is good) but they flounced off during their last visit. My dh thinks they are off the scale abusive and I know i will probably never see them again but i feel so bruised. I'd love to have a supportive Mum and Dad.

Bliss. We're dealing with a very erratic son at the moment so not hearing from the parents is fabulous. I am fully expecting that, when the kids go back to school, I will get a visit when they think dh is at work. Luckily for me he is off work this week.

Our children sadly don't understand why dh won't let them have the eggs. I thought they'd been taken away when he threw them back at them, but they are bagged and were under the stairs. He knew they were there so I am reassured that the parents haven't been in the house when we have been out.

Any ideas on how to gently explain to children that it's not ok for their grandparents to insult their father, that the eggs feel somewhat of a bribe to make sure that they are seen as the victims?

The ball is firmly in their court to do anything, which means nothing will be done. Father has not replied to my text following his phonecall. Which confirms to me that all he wanted to do was have a go at me over the situation.

Lisette I don't know what the recommended way to disengage emotionally is but I'm having a go at parenting myself, it's early days but so far so good. It's been a positive step plus it gives me something to focus on.

I'm doing all sorts from having some 'me' time (previously seen as lazyness), to treating myself (previously seen as being selfish) to learning what to tolerate and what not to (aka healthy morals). I'm getting a lot of my strength from reading here and the AIBU section... there are some comments on topics in there clearly from emotionally strong well balanced women and as soon as I read those, I'm like yeah!.. that's my goal, to think like that.

Treacle thanks for your reply. I'm doing the self care thing and trying to be the kind parent that I never had to myself. It helps to know I'm not alone. Dh has been great too. It's coming up to a year since they walked out and i think that's why i feel low.

Treacle I had something like that with my mother - best example was when my dad was ill and she would complain about how terribly he was being treated and how rude everyone was and I'd talk her off the edge - the same sort of thing, explain why a certain queueing system was meant to get everyone seen quickly, or that the GP was asking questions out of medical necessity and not nosiness, that sort of thing. Like you I felt like she was getting something out of it - and not anything healthy - she had that satisfied look about her that she always got when she was getting her narcissistic supply. See when I think about it now, it makes me so angry. My dad was dying. I was having my latest miscarriage, and I'd just started a new job. And who was getting all the comfort and attention? The only one of the three of us that was actually well. I wouldn't even have minded if I had been giving her genuine comfort but like everything else my dad's cancer was just an opportunity for a bit of narcissistic supply.

Oh I love the idea of mothering yourself! I've always tried to be the mother I wish I'd had to my DCs but never to myself - do you just jump in or are there any tips on starting? I think after a lifetime of NOT treating myself very well, which I can see now is a learnt behaviour from her, it might be a struggle to get past all the negative thoughts & feelings of not deserving. x

Toomuch That's terrible, and so obvious when you state it as fact.

Wannabe I'm trying to undo what I've been conditioned to think but because I don't know what's right and wrong I'm identifying things as I go along. A great example is what Toomuch said above. It hit me like a brick that every time my dad has been ill she's made it all about her, and I've gone along and pacified her over stupid things. This has gone on since I was a small child so my conditioned behaviour is to not be ill because a) it's weak and b) it's selfish sooooo the next time I'm ill I will take to my bed with plenty of comfort and have the rest I need to get better.

Interestingly when my OH has a cold he spends a day or so in bed and feels better, I have the same bug and it drags on for weeks. He's always said it's because I don't rest up. I bet he's right!

The other thing I'm doing as a general thing is spending a few moments throughout the day complimenting myself, stuff like oh that top suits you today or you've made a good job of x,y or z and I'm catching myself as I'm about to put myself down and shrugging it off. I took the wrong exit on a roundabout yesterday but rather than call myself an idiot I smiled because it didn't matter, it was easily corrected and it doesn't make me an idiot or useless at driving. It honestly feels like I'm shedding my skin, like I'm breaking out of a cocoon and turning into me.

Good luck xx

Oh god, last time I had a chest infection (I have a bit of a bad chest) I didn't go to the doctor for antibiotics because I was scared of the emotional flashback of shame that I would have if it turned out not to be a bacterial infection. As a kid I only got taken to the doctor when I was at death's door - the GP was above my mother in her fucked up social hierarchy so we weren't to bother him. I find dealing with the NHS really difficult these days, what with the pressure they are under to cut costs and see more patients in a short time, I find it very triggering, let's say that. Now that we live abroad and have better health insurance I need to get better at being active in getting help when I need it. I find self care really difficult generally - it's interesting. I thought, or hoped, that it would feel good, but I actually find it incredibly uncomfortable to e.g. rest up when I am ill. I think for me this is where the motherly discipline is lacking - our mothers should have been applying kind discipline to us as children, taking responsibility for the things we were too young to manage ourselves while gradually empowering us to take on responsibility for the various bits of our lives when we were ready. Instead we were subjected to random, vicious summary justice for real or imagined sins depending on their passing mood, and were parentified or left to fend for ourselves in some areas of our lives and overcontrolled in an age inappropriate way in others.

Good morning ladies, I've had a bit of a horrid weekend but it's not been anything to do with my family. Luckily my mum text at 11pm Friday night to say don't bother coming tomorrow so I got to spend the weekend with my in-laws. What has happened though is on another mn thread I have been criticised, called emotionally controlling and given a link to psychology today explaining to me I'm a narcissist and enjoy being emotional and blaming others. (Don't know how to copy links to other threads so can't show you). I feel wretched as the last thing I want to be is my mum but it looks like history is repeating itself despite my best efforts to be a better parent to my son. I'll admit that I DO have a very old fashioned relationship and there's a lot we don't talk about because my OH isn't a very open person but I never thought that was because I control him. Even his family say that's just the person he is.

I feel like just giving up on everything because I never realised I was this horrible person and maybe actually my family are right and I am this terrible daughter with problems they just couldn't deal with. Can you change? Can you get help to stop being a narcissist?

MummyBear I do think that awareness is half the battle, so if you're aware that you have certain tendencies, at least you can catch yourself & see where your flash points are. I cringe sometimes when I hear myself channeling my mother but at least I can pull myself up short.
But don't be too hard on yourself & give yourself a bit of slack. x

Lisette It takes a while and you have to fight urges of what if, maybe this, maybe that. But pretty much NC, showing them that you're NC and under no terms are you going to engage.

In a Fairytale world my family would be different, but in 4 decades, there's been no change, so for my own sanity, they actually initiated NC. It did bother me at first, I was quite upset. But it's distancing yourself too, so just avoiding where they live, avoid thinking about special events.

One side of my family are even NC with DC, they've written a letter to 'explain' but hopefully we can intercept that so DC are poisoned with whatever bull shit they believe to be their truth.

I think that's another thing, people have their own rhetoric and their own truth. If you compare it to reality, it is complete and utter rubbish.

I think having a support thread like this is good because we're all going through the same, we can all support one another.

It's up to you to decide whether you do niceties like Birthday Cards, Christmas Cards, Parents Day Cards. But I wished a family member a happy parents day, got no reply, even though I thanked them for their sacrifice as my parents were teenagers, I apologised if I caused any distress or stopped them achieving whatever. But then I realised, I've got DC, I still managed to achieve a hell of a lot, they weren't a barrier, they were a motivating factor in doing better. So in reality whilst my parents may blame me and my siblings for holding them back, they had choices, they could have used contraception, or had an abortion. They could have still gone and studied with children, as we grew up being cared for by extended family anyway.

So I really don't get this life style they would have achieved, if we hadn't have come along. It's not excuse, it's not viable in any sense. At any stage they could have returned to college. THEY chose not to. It's just convenient that they use my siblings and myself as an excuse, with myself being the primary excuse being the eldest.

One way to heal yourself, write down the family members name and the negative things they've said, write underneath, these are 'persons name' versions of the truth they believe, they aren't reality. It might take you a day, a week or a month. But pour your heart into this letter. Write affirmations like 'I won't be held back by your constraints any further, I'm sorry you feel this way, but this is not reality. Write down how they made you feel, write down incidents that plague your mind. If you want it to be private, say you've written a page of A4, when at the bottom, start writing over it at the top again. You can write in big letters over it the negative emotions you want to clear.

I've changed a lot in the last few years as I've realised, I'll never please those I want to please. I'll never get the well done I've wanted most of my life. Once you let go of expectations, it truly frees you up. Say a decade ago, if hubby wanted to pick a fight, a verbal one, I had so much anger in me, he could happily have one. Now if he tries to pick a fight I ignore him, or say I'm sorry you feel that way.

I don't believe you can change what others deem to be the truth. You can show as much proof as you want, but they have their own beliefs, their own rhetoric. It's easier just to leave them to it.

The idea of burning outside away from your house, is the negativity gets spread into the atmosphere. If you put it on an indoor fire, some believe that the negativity might get trapped in the property.

I have done it and it is cathartic, in probably due to do it again, you can repeat it as often as you like.

The ultimate thing is, don't let others control you and don't let them trap you into living in a world of their flawed truths, rhetoric and conjecture.

A final example, one DC has a school friend, so hubby and some of my relatives are friends with the family. My family aren't complimentary about me, hubby and I are going our separate ways. We get told never judge a book by its cover. Never judge a person by the views given by another. Yet this school Mum has chosen to do that, at Christmas my name was missing from the Christmas card, at Easter she ironically chose the same card from paper chase as I'd picked out for her. I've reached out to try and be friends, but she got told all these things about me by different people, she decided, I just won't go there. I believe there is more to it, but I don't have tacit proof. At Easter she sent this card, to both DC and hubby, my name was missing again. Fair enough if she wants to judge me based on what she's heard over what she knows, it just shows the type of person she is. For me under no circumstances would I omit a persons name, just to make a point, it's childish and petty.

Oh and with the burning... You can make an occasion of it, get an old ceramic plant pot, or ceramic pot of some type, buy some nail varnish remover, dowse the pages, make sure you do it outside, burn all the negativity away. It's meant to be really cathartic and clear away the negativity. Once it's burnt it's a fresh start.

mummybear That sounds very upsetting. I would say though please try not to give those posters too much power. They don't know you. Lots of them just want to be cruel because it's anonymous. If though you do feel there is some truth in it, maybe try to let yourself explore how that feels and what you could change. It's hard, the self doubt of being the child of a narc. I hope you are ok.

Hello all,
First time posting on this thread though I did post my own thread a while ago about going NC with my brother after years of him taking out his jealous resentment on me. It escalated over xmas after i announced I was pregnant (first DGC for parents and I'm younger than him so an obvious trigger) to the point that I decided to cut contact.

I'm posting today because I just found out that the rest of my family spent the Easter weekend together and kept it secret from me. I pieced it together from the background of a photo my DS sent me last week (didn't realise at the time) and from my brothers public Instagram which I occasionally check because I'm a masochist.

I'm so upset and angry. I'll readily admit that I didn't even want to be there! It's always tense and toxic so I don't eventenjoy going. It's that I told them that I don't want to see my brother if no one will stand up to him or support me when he's being nasty to me in front of everyone. And rather than deal with that they've just carried on as normal except without me.

It feels very unfair that he's never had any consequences for his nastiness, and that he's basically got what he wants which is for me to disappear. Luckily I started counselling a couple of weeks ago to try and work through it all before my baby arrives, I'm so glad I've got a session tomorrow to talk it over. Right now I'm sitting on my hands so I don't send angry texts to my DP/DS. Sigh.

Hi everyone. I am feeling sad. I have 'awakened' in the last month or so. I am trying to see reality instead of all my fantasies about my family. It's really hard. I am trying to stop chasing them, stop trying to make everything OK, stop accepting all the emotional abuse and dysfunction and toxicity. But I feel so odd and empty and unwanted, not playing my role. The dynamics in my family have shifted again and I seem to be shut out right now. I feel really hurt. I feel scared too. I know that becoming awake means that things have to change, but that scares me. I thought we were close? What if actually we aren't? Finding it hard to get my head round.

Hi Adler. That sounds really painful and hurtful. I also found out that my whole family had an Easter thing without me. It's not very nice is it? Different circumstances though and it sounds like an isolated place to be in for you at the moment. Counselling sounds like a good idea. Do you have an outlet for the time being - journalling or anything like that?