"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thanks for your reply chest. Sorry to hear you had a similar weekend! I'm pretty low contact with my family so the dysfunction tends to be focused on big holidays. The rest of the year I get on with my life! Ha. My DP and best mate are being bloody wonderful today, they've got all the back story and have been brilliant throughout. Having good chats with them which is helping me stay away from angry texts! And will see me through until counselling tomorrow.

I hope you're getting through ok and had a decent bank holiday weekend away from the dysfunction x

to everybody on here - have been catching up since posting on Sunday.

I've gone right back through the Stately Homes threads and it's suddenly dawned on me why my mother has always been nice to me (at least, on the surface) when I've been unhappy and/or in bad situations. And why when things are good (ie now, with a lovely family of my own), she always seems to be angry with me.

She is almost certainly a narcissist - and therefore if I don't need her to help me she doesn't have 'power' over me.

Sounds so obvious but I just 'get' it.

Or 'got' it - even

And something else - my sister, for various reasons, needs/gets a lot of help from my mum. And my mum puts her on a pedestal & talks about her as if she is a saint - and constantly makes comparisons between her and myself. It drive me nuts and I constantly have to remind myself that it's not my sister's fault, it's just my mum talking shit.

Big deep breath... just had one of mum's popping in visits, which usually involves me stopping what I'm doing, making coffee, listening to her telling me about all her woes (all self-generated) and can rake up to 2 hours, by which time I'm wanting to stick my head in a blender! But not this time!!! I carried on washing up, ummed & aahed at appropriate moments until she eventually said "oh well, I'll go back home now then!" My DS came in & usually she pretty much ignores him or treats him like he's really naughty (he's a very enthusiastic 9 year old boy, ffs!) so she said in a fake quavery voice " Have you got a hug for your tired old granny, then?" So bless him, he did & then off she went.
I feel so guilty for not offering her even a cup of coffee - I suppose she is really just a lonely old lady, but there's so much backstory, I just can't conjure up a warm daughterly feeling whenever she's bored! DH & I do a huge amount for her but there need to be limits. Don't there?

Sorry I'm brain dumping again

Me too, Flump but I think I've just made myself sound really mean-spirited! This is so hard, isn't it?! for you x

Fairytales thanks for your detailed reply. I'm getting great ideas for healing.

Adler that's great you've got that support and people to vent to! I know what you mean about holidays/ occasions. Seems unfair sometimes that things get dominated by the dysfunction doesn't it? Hope the rest of your day is better, and hope counselling is really helpful tomorrow.

Flump That sounds like a massive realisation! It's so strange finding a new understanding of things that have been themes of your whole life isn't it? I too struggle with the sibling dynamic - trying not to resent siblings because of DM behaviour. Its hard though to separate out each person from the toxicity. But that sounds positive that you are aware of what happens.

Wannabe Wow go you! How did that feel? I'd say yes it is absolutely OK and normal to have limits. But it's very difficult when your family dynamic isn't normal! Hope you can enjoy the time and space that you managed to claw back.

This thread is such a comfort to me.

And right on cue... the phone rings, it's mum using her best panic-struck voice..."I've got a problem...the builder wants to know where to put the old paving stones..." What she wanted was for DH to go rushing over to discuss it, agree with her miraculous problem-solving ability & then for her to come back it recount the whole thing to me. This has happened so so many times. She's like a child who needs constant attention & praise, but with an acid tongue when she doesn't get her own way. Luckily DH is working... I bet the builder didn't even realise it was an issue & just said "where shall I put the old paving stones?".
This thread is a great letting off steam place - for everyone, just help yourselves! Thankyou! x

Chest - check my post to Adler, it could help every one of us on here do a brain dump and hopefully trying and get rid of some of the negativity. You can do it as frequently as you need to, so every time something upsets you, get it down on paper, then burn it outside. Some people swear by saying positive affirmations, like I won't let this control me.

I had the biggest shock when I was a victim of domestic abuse decades ago. I looked up to and doted on my Dad. When I called him, he said, what the fuck do you expect me to do about it, I was dumbstruck, as in my head, when I got the courage to admit it, my family would come to the rescue, they didn't, I was told it's just one of them things, if the abuser says sorry, what more do you want.

It all went downhill from there, I started to think the outbursts from family members weren't on, I shouldn't be tolerating them. The C kind of slid down a hill from there, to now where it's basically NC. It's as you're going down the slope you look at past events and say, actually it's been shit for a long time, I was just making up excuses.

Maybe keep a diary of what's going on so you can pin point things better.

Paving slab dilemma - you should get her a reward chart, might get the message across, if she asks what is it for, say you're always looking for validation, so it seemed like the perfect solution. Is there any reason why you still speak to her? Does she enjoy the whole damsel in distress situation? Is it more your DH she seeks validation from? My Mum used to do the weirdest thing where she would sit on hubbys knee like a child. I thought I'm not even going to acknowledge it as that's what she wants.

Fairytales Pavingslabdilemma should've been my username!!!! We live in a village & she lives opposite us, so going no contact is really not an option! Love the reward chart idea, though!
Am thinking of keeping a daily tally of all the spurious reasons for popping over/phoning up. Today so far it's been paving slabs, an urgent need for fly spray, a recap on what the builder has done so far today... but it's only mid-afternoon, so plenty more time!
I really wouldn't mind, except that somehow each time, she finds a reason to roll her eyes (DS having yet another friend round) or do the burning martyr act (oh of course DH is working... I'm sure I can manage somehow.) or make snarky comments about my DF (who has wisely escaped into residential nursing care!)
I'm exhausted! x

Wannabe - I honestly don't understand parents dumping their troubles and woes on their children. It must be so draining, then the way she treats DS to, you must be sick to death of it.

Flump - it's a bit of a shock when you realise. DF is just firey, almost explosive. But DM loves mind games, like if I'm helping a sibling that's the only time we'll really talk. I realised that seeing as I get no help when I need it, it's her way of going 'ooh, ahh' about a sibling, when it's me who's literally having to pick up the pieces. So when I need help, it's apparent she's not there. With my youngest sister, she's very OTT, the best DD in the world, quality Mother & DD time, like it's the first DD she's had, when she's got 4. My other sisters don't really pay attention as they have their own lives they're trying to salvage. I'd say to you too, if you read my last post, dumping all the negativity is a really good way of dealing with it. Also try hard not to get sucked into any games etc, if that makes any sense. I think they just see their DC as pieces in a game, maybe a bit like chess, I'd def be a pawn, disposable with smallest value, then youngest sister maybe the Queen, whilst she's the King, the sole focus is always on her.

Adler - Im lucky not to have any siblings like your brother, but an ex had a narc for a sister. It was so crazy, everyone knew what she was doing but didn't say a word. A lot of emphasis was put on SIL being the self made matriarch, so you had to please her. I made the mistake of saying oh DB & I are going to TTC, all hell broke loose, she wanted to be the first to have the GC. Her DH said look I'm not sure for lots of reasons, she essentially said either we do it NOW or we'll have to get divorced. They had time apart, she orchestrated it so her siblings & parents would contact him as she commanded, with pretty much a script of what they were to say. I was at the whole situation, so ultimately he said yes, it became a battle of who's period came first, Im irregular so had no idea, plus we knew I had fertility issues so we were trying tablet fertility tx. When she was TTC I got all the gory details, I had a MC, on the day of my scan to check everything had gone she got her BFP & had me round ASAP to check if I agreed her positives were positives. In the end we were NC as it was just too much, she again played it to her advantage, she was the victim of it all, if it wasn't for NC then x/y/z would have happened, which I don't doubt. We briefly mended things, her DH did me a favour, she was livid with him that he'd put my needs before DN & hers. DN all of a sudden needed a feed, even though she agreed he could help, her DH should have known that DN was due a feed. So she managed to make our special occasion all about her. I really felt for her DH & parents as she had them dancing in precision to her tune. We were having no luck TTC, we ended up NC briefly, so she got her other pawns to be on at my ex, oh if she's struggling to TTC, do you really want to miss out on DN growing up. It pretty much took the wind out of my sails, as she essentially was saying why bother trying and going through interventions when you can be an amazing Uncle. All of a sudden my ex was ignoring what he knew about her being a narc and DN was used as the ultimate weapon. I remember towards the end it was his birthday, she wanted it at hers as it'd be easier, but I was unwell, so I got left stranded by myself. She was playing games, I would get upset, my ex would say come on I doubt she'd do that, like he forgot everything he knew to be true. We got on so well, but I wasn't prepared to have my life controlled by another person.

Have you thought about speaking to your parents about why you weren't invited? Have you thought about how having DC will affect things?

It's really sneaky because I'm guessing he knows you check his IG, so he knows you will have seen the get together. It looks like he's dismantling your bridge, whilst strengthening his own. At least if you were to lose it with him/them you can blame hormones. It must hurt being excluded, as I remember how I felt when they weren't willing to make any concessions. Your parents must know you wouldn't be happy if you found out. DB needs to grow up.

for all

Fairytales what a nightmare! That sounds absolutely horrific! Luckily we were spared TTC psychodrama as we didn't tell them we were trying and conceived easily, which I am very grateful for. I had the 12 week scan in mid Dec and purposefully went to tell my parents before xmas so that I didn't do a big announcement on xmas day as I knew it'd push my brother's buttons.

I think with this weekend, as usual, my parents are following the path of least resistance. He isn't particularly likeable in general but it becomes hugely exaggerated when I'm there, so I guess to them if I'm not invited then everything is less tense. They don't seem to consider that they're basically rewarding him with exactly what he wants which is for me not to exist. I think I made a mistake in setting the boundary after xmas that I don't want to see him, rather than 'if no one is going to challenge how he treats me, I don't want to see him'. Because now it's just my choice and why would they invite me when I've said I won't see him? Rather than accepting that I won't see him because no one will ever step in when he is bullying me, which puts some responsibility on them.

I don't think he knows I look at his Instagram - the photos he posted weren't family pics or anything, they were of a fancy meal in a restaurant near my folks. It's a public account, really I should block it but it's hard not to look because I have no other contact with him at all, except the odd unwanted tidbit from my family.

The crux of it is that he is very miserable, has no friends or partner and would have had nowhere else to be over the bank holiday. I didn't even want to be there! It's just the secrecy that makes me feel upset. And they're quick to point out that I've got lots of friends and a great DP, without acknowledging that I've worked hard to build those friendships to fill the massive black hole where family love and support are meant to be!

With regards to impending parenthood, it's complicated things in that usually at this point I would just go LC and make excuses not to see them until xmas. Whereas that'd be a big thing now because it'd mean not inviting them to meet our summer baby. I intend to stay NC with my brother which will include my kid, but I don't see that he'll care. We all live hours apart from each other so NC is very easy.

Other than that, me being pregnant has escalated things with my brother as I mentioned before. But I think also has made me more keen to break out of the dysfunction and build something better with my partner and kid. I don't want to go NC with my parents but was intuitively LC throughout my 20s until trying work on things the last couple of years which I now regret. I'm hoping we can find a straightforward LC setup where we see them once in a while and only talk about the baby, ha ha.

Thanks for reading x

mummy I am a nosy sod so I went and advanced searched your username and found that thread. I hope you don't mind. I won't link it on here in case you don't want it seen wider.

TBH I could see why that one poster was having a go - your relationship seems so massively unequal in terms of the love and effort you and your DH are putting in that people were suspecting that you might be a covert narcissist. A covert narc who posted like you would be deliberately freezing her DH out from doing anything with/for himself or for DS, in order to become indispensable. She would be massively exaggerating how good her own behaviour was and how bad her DHs, and would claim to be very happy with everything and just full of love and happiness. And then she would get narcissistic supply from other people telling her how hard done by she was and what a saint and how good compared to her wicked husband. I think people find it hard to believe that you are happy with your situation.

TBH I find it hard to believe that you are happy with it. But I know that people with abusive neglectful backgrounds can have incredibly low standards in relationships, mainly as a result of their inculcated tendency to blame themselves and work harder whenever there is any conflict in their lives. You seem very much like that. You take the worst criticism to heart. There were a ton of people on that thread saying that you should be demanding more from your DH, one or two saying basically that you are breaking the cycle of abuse - but that's not what you remember. You remember the one that called you a narc.

I have to be honest with you, I did wonder myself when I was reading it whether you were genuine, or whether you were getting N supply - but let me be really clear: that would mean that you were sitting at your computer lying about your situation and feeling great that lots of people had said you were really hard done by. And coming on here and asking if you are a narcissist, you would be totally outraged if any of us said "maybe" - you would be simply expecting us to say "oh no of course you're not, how can she say that" etc etc. Does that make sense?

Sorry I can't keep up with all the posts but have read and to you all, hope you are all having a peaceful evening.

Massive sibling drama for me this evening. The usual weird intense toxic stuff from DPs about it. I seem to be not 'in the club' right now. Feeling hurt and angry although I'm not sure why exactly.

Adler Do you have a plan to manage them when baby comes? No idea what it will be like for you but in my experience the arrival of a grandchild can make things more intense/ dysfunctional - and at a time when you are vulnerable.

Hi. I haven't been on here for a week or so , and have been catching up. Went to see [narc] MIL and FIL. Survived by doing lots of [ 'very helpful DIL' ] gardening /booze in the evening - and synchronized smiling. my DH basically disappeared with his dad so that I'd have to listen to it. Then back to [paid] work.

Chest i read your post about your family and felt for you. It's very hard re family . I've been the ignored one for all of my life, but it still hurts to pull away - or to be pulled away from, in your case. Due to the incessant thinking about this [ does anyone know how to stop that . It can't be healthy ?] I've awakened to the fact that it's not only the narc DM who has been abusing but a majority of family members, over time. My DF died ages ago - an enabler. Is that learned behaviour ? Must be. Presumably to NOT fulfill the parent's expectations of how the roles are meant to play out would mean consequences for them - and then it just becomes subconscious. And, chest , if you are trying to change, they won't like it. They might have to ask themselves awkward questions - or just say that you're being odd.

I exited the family Whatssap group a couple of weeks ago. i found that I was trolling it - no one replied to anything I put on apart from one person. And it made me feel worse to see all the interactions. I feel much better now. For a week or so, I half expected [ hoped for?] a private inquiry. Nothing. So that's that .Basically NC now. It is scary. Like totally validated in expectations, but really outside now. No pretending. The grieving is in process. I think that I personally hoped for a miracle from .....someone. Aren't some people just self protecting shits ?

PS My mother hasn't tried to telephone, which is a bit surprising , but feels great. Actually. Can I ask .... I have been resisting contacting her/ answering calls. for weeks now. Just drifted off the radar. Don't live near and she has enough minions to keep her looked after day to day. I don't think that it would be of any use to tell her why - she is uber manipulative, and frankly I'm scared of her/ can't get past the conditioning. hope the counselling will help. How did other people actually go NC ??? Did they say so, say why, just avoid, write a letter ?

PPS Anger is good, in my opinion ! I wasn't allowed to be angry when growing up - I didn't get to really feel righteous anger [ as opposed to damaging moany passive aggressive negativity] till I was in my late 20s. It was [ literally] my saviour. I saved me, and survived. .Harness that anger and use it to learn and change - it's the grown up inside you saying 'this is wrong, stop playing games'. And don't they just love their childish games?

makealist I ghosted my mother until she sent some flying monkeys my way, and then I sent her a very basic NC letter outlining a couple of examples of the abuse and telling her I didn't want any contact or reconciliation. I was worried that my mother might do something crazy and I didn't want to engage with her in any way but once the flying monkeys started I thought it would be worth sending a letter so she couldn't claim she didn't know what she's done wrong.
I think if you do send a NC letter you should do it in your own time, don't rush to do it. I think you should only do it if you think it will make your life easier, if you think it will forestall the flying monkeys or to get closure or catharsis or whatever. Don't feel you owe her an explanation. You don't owe her a thing.

After a few years of nc. I'm lc with my family. They all live abroad so easy enough. My narcissistic f sent me a really wierd video on whatapp recently. I queried it and he's not responded since. It was vitamins instead if cancer treatment. He's a medical prof. My mum died of cancer.
Anyway I'm not sure if I'may being given the silent treatment for calling him out (well asking him why he's disseminating this syuff) or if in fact he's delegated contact stuff with him difficult daughter to his gf (in which case she's probably crapping herself at having done it 'wrong' poor woman)
BUT the progress is how little anxiety I have about it. It's not zero but pretty close. He used to send me into agonies of self doubt and anxiety. NC set me free!

Feeling a bit stressed by it all today. I usually 'cope' with my mother by going low contact for a while (or as long as I can get away with) until my anger/hurt about her latest outburst has passed. But it was only a few days ago and I am going to have to see her tonight at a family meal which I can't get out of.

I don't want the DC to miss out on seeing other family members because of her latest shit storm so am going to try to ignore her as much as possible, but I am dreading it and really don't want to go. Somebody please give me a pep-talk or a slap

alder and others who get a bit of info via social media. I had a wobble with that around one of my dad's big birthday celebrations. Imagining them all happy familying it. Remind yourself what it's actually like to be around them rather than permitting the fantasy of them having normal family relationships in your absence. It's a fantasy it's not happening even if it looks OK on an Instagram pic.

Badtaste - I don't halfway house much but about once every 2 years my dad visits. I reread the tips on dealing with narcs in my books. Basically 2 fold

1. You are a valid person resist the ingrained instinct to jump through hoops for your parent. Keep thinking if this was a perfectly normal person what would I say or do now.
2. Remind yourself they are a narc. Provide nothing in terms of supply. You are a rock try to fade from their view. Don't get onto any push button issues. Mmhh switch topic invent a reason to speak to someone else.

Depends on broader dynamics but is it really worth it for your children or are they being dragged into the whole sorry affair by having contact