Why ARE some men so horrible to women?

[jezestbelle]

I recently posted about an awful weekend in Paris essentially spoiled by street harassment or other womens sad stories about it. I have to admit it has kind of coloured my view of men as Ive returned to London and to work. I am not naive or stupid, I know that most people do not engage in this kind of behaviour, but Im just really trying to fathom why, what it is they who do it get out of it. I mean if occsaionally a woman cracked and said ok then I will go to bed with you as a result of catcalling or whatever well I still wouldnt agree with it but you could see a certain logic..but I refuse to believe that has ever happened.
Another thing Ive noticed is women I think are almost self hating and almost gravitate to men who treat them badly, again kind of unfathomable... Also am kind of fearful of the male sex drive right now more for my lovely DD than me. If it really is as powerful as they say can it actually be controlled? I know I may sound paranoid but this is where my head is at. I should add that I do know some really lovely kind and genuine guys who would never dream of harassing a woman, I am even wondering about them is it just that they have supreme self control or something?

I have to wonder what those of you who respond to discussions of poor treatment of women by men with "not all men" and/or "women sometimes behave poorly too" are hoping to achieve with that comment. So what? Do you think anyone does actually believe that all men do it? Are we supposed to just ignore the problem because it's not all men? Enough men are doing it that it's a serious problem for women and most women have experienced it. Should we ignore women's discomfort/fear/lack of freedom to go about their business unmolested because some people apparently misinterpret statements about obvious trends of gendered behaviour in society as personal insults. "Not all men" achieves nothing but shutting down discussion and dismissing women's lived experiences.

"Women have very little idea of how much men hate them" Germaine Greer, the female eunuch

Still true today.

Yes, weasel

Right so you are completely not going to accept that women on the internet are in for sexist and sexualised harassment and commentary in a way that men are not.

So why on earth are you not denying that it happens in real life to women when they are out and about? Surely it would be weird if men are totally happy to say and do these things in real life but hold back when they are afforded the anonymity of the internet...

And in fact the denial that women specifically experience sexist and sexualised commentary and harassment in their online lives (really??????????????? I mean, come on) then presumably that means there is no problem and nothing needs to be done. And yet apparently a man who does it in real life needs to be tasered (WTF? that's highly illegal and very very few women react with any form of violence to this stuff). It's all rather inconsistent.

So men who do this irl need to be tasered.
Men don't do this on the internet.

Righto.

I watched a Brazilian program where mothers disguised themselves and walked past their sons who were leering at them and shouting crude stuff out. The mothers whipped their wigs off and belted the sons with it and gave them hell.

I don't think these women raised their sons like this. Misogyny is everywhere - media, films, books, magazines and in private with their peers.

Weasel, I saw a quote once (have looked but can't find it now, unfortunately) that said something along the lines of "Germaine Greer once said that women have very little idea of how much men hate them. We'll, these days, thanks to the internet, now we do".

Well, not we'll

My question stands, Dad. When women tell you that every one of us experiences harassment, why respond with "well, I don't do it so it's not a problem and you're being unfair to me/other men" instead of "wow, that's awful, what can we do to stop it?". Why move all the focus onto you and the men who don't do it instead of the women who are living with it each and every day?

I was wandering around a car boot sale recently quite early in the morning
A man walking towards me just randomly said "nice tits" to me then carried on walking
Totally threw me - not upset me - wonder how I should have responded

It's not that tiny a percentage though is it, if most women have experienced it multiple times.

And when you look overseas, like the OPs experience in France, or reports from India for example, it becomes even harder to say this is all down to a tiny number of inadequate abnormal men.

Why won't men believe what women tell them about this stuff.

How often has anyone on the internet told you that you deserve to be killed or raped in response to a simple post stating your (not terribly controversial) opinion, Dad? There's shouty and aggressive, which, yes, everyone seems to get now and then. And then there's downright terrifying and threatening, which many women receive simply for daring to speak.

Why do you have the belief that women and girls experience sexual and sexist harassment in real life, because they are women, but not on line? Can't you see that makes no logical sense?

Haven't you read about it in the news, many high profile women have reported the things that they have been attacked with, some have had to go to the police over serious threats of sexual violence.

I'm not angry, certainly not really angry. I'm used to men telling me that they know how things are better than my own experiences. I'm here's another one. I think many other women feel the same way.

Not in so many words. But do you deny that all your posts are focusing on how unfair "false" accusations are for men instead of how unfair it is that women are so used to being harassed that it's just part of everyday life for us?

weaselwords - Germain Greer is right. I posted this a few days ago on another thread.

"I am a long-time male regular have been off the site for a few days and had to re-register under a new name (clue is in the name). My first thought when the hacking attack started was that it was an appalling attack on women and illustrated the deep hatred that some men have for women.

I do not think that most women understand the depth of that hatred some men have for them. It comes out of fear and inadequacy.

When men are alone with other men and no women are around some men are willing to express this hatred very openly because they feel 'safe' to do it. The internet allows men to anonymously express that hatred in a more public way."

This is not about 'male sex drive' at all. It is about bullying, hatred and discrimination. It is exactly like racism.

Whirlpool - You're right I don't think it's a tiny percentage either.

The stats tell a startling story, 1 in 17 men admits to sexual assault/rape in America, this rises to 3 in 4 in some parts of Asia! I admit I haven't gone through these reports, but can easily believe it.

I guess men don't like to accept it as it casts a pretty nasty shadow over the entire gender. Plus it represents a massive moral blackhole on behalf of most men who implicitly condone this behaviour by justifying it or minimising it. At least that's how I felt when I first learnt about it and started trying to empathise with women and their experiences...

..of course the feelings of those who experience the results of these behaviour is far worse than my "hurt feelings" but thought I'd suggest a possibility based on my personal response to Feminist knowledge.

OP, I didn't read your original experience but I know how much this stuff can affect you. One incident of something that happens relatively often can leave me in a rage for days - I know that by being in a rage I am only upsetting myself but I feel so powerless.

And I think it is getting worse - I experience this more myself in my 30s than in my 20s and interestingly, I am out and about a lot less than I was in that decade. Anyone else notice this?

Then I get annoyed because I have a strong sense of "shrug" from my male friends, who are keen to assure me that "not all men are like that" - I'm not suggesting for a minute they are. But as someone who is often going from A to B alone or with other women, I am amazed at how much of it goes on. My dad was saying he thinks some men find it too disappointing or worrying to consider that their sons, their mates etc might be doing this hence why they don't take it seriously?

This story in the Guardian really touched a nerve with me. The amount of "be nice to creeps for self-preservation" that goes on is so high.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/20/sexual-harassment-women-curfew

Funnily enough I was thinking this morning, why do I piss men off so much?

It's not me though is it?

I have said many times on here that the men who do behave like this cause problems for everyone. Men and women.

The problem is this.

I know all men aren't going to behave like this. My vast experiemce of men is that they are not. The problem is, that until they do it, I don't know and so, for my own safety, I am wary of all men initially.

I have experienced lots of low level sexualised assault - shouts/comments designed to humiliate and intimidate.

A fair amount if mid level assault - bum/boobs grabbed by strangers; prolonged and increasing threats of rape; offensive comments made. And you can't underestimate how intimidating these are because you have no idea who is going to take it further.

One attempted rape and one actual rape.

In my life I have encountered many, many more men who have NOT done these things than who have.

But given that men don't carry a warning sign, I have to be cautious.

As I've also said before, if you don't like it, don't get cross with the women who experience it and are intimidated by it, get angry with the men who do it.

Some reading for you voyageofdad. That's if you're genuinely interested in the subject.

www.psmag.com/health-and-behavior/women-arent-welcome-internet-72170

www.womensaid.org.uk/core/core_picker/download.asp?id=4362

time.com/3305466/male-female-harassment-online/

Beta and Keep it - thank you for listening and believing us.

This is no reflection on you two gentlemen but if you are as able to critically read and understand as you seem to be you won't take this personally - but isn't it fucking sad that we should all be in a position where women do feel pathetically grateful and relieved (and not a little surprised) when men actually listen to and acknowledge the experiences of women.

VoD - I'm a bit bemused as to what your idea/agenda is here? The OP was pretty clear in her 'even-handedness' re other men who don't harass.
You would appear to wish to argue with a bunch of women who suffer crap, each day possibly, to an extent and of a type you will never experience.