Why ARE some men so horrible to women?

[jezestbelle]

I recently posted about an awful weekend in Paris essentially spoiled by street harassment or other womens sad stories about it. I have to admit it has kind of coloured my view of men as Ive returned to London and to work. I am not naive or stupid, I know that most people do not engage in this kind of behaviour, but Im just really trying to fathom why, what it is they who do it get out of it. I mean if occsaionally a woman cracked and said ok then I will go to bed with you as a result of catcalling or whatever well I still wouldnt agree with it but you could see a certain logic..but I refuse to believe that has ever happened.
Another thing Ive noticed is women I think are almost self hating and almost gravitate to men who treat them badly, again kind of unfathomable... Also am kind of fearful of the male sex drive right now more for my lovely DD than me. If it really is as powerful as they say can it actually be controlled? I know I may sound paranoid but this is where my head is at. I should add that I do know some really lovely kind and genuine guys who would never dream of harassing a woman, I am even wondering about them is it just that they have supreme self control or something?

or male, here, as an alternative..

"Yes. Lots of people get harassed on the internet. Men and women."

Has a man ever been threatened with rape because he made a suggestion about who should feature on a newly designed bank note?

Has a man ever been sent pictures of his own face superimposed on a picture of genitalia because he dared to appear on television when not young and conventionally handsome?

No? Thought not.

I think a lot of men are really angry at women because they won't 'give' them sex.

I haven't read all the replies but I was watching something on youtube only yesterday about a man who was internet dating and he was really angry that with the same profile differing only in that one had his own face and another had the face of handsome model, the latter got much more views. He took this not as a face of life, but 'proof' that women are shallow whores. It was really scary. I'm trying internet dating now which is why I stumbled on to that clip. I'm largely ignored, which is kind of demoralising but it doesn't make me hate all men. I don't feel that men who are younger than me and more attractive than me are to be despised because they won't have sex with me

Outraged? No, as Whirlpool said, not remotely surprised and just sad at hearing the same old thing yet again.

Well, your position seems to be 1. it's a tiny proportion 2. women don't get harassed on the web disproportionately 3. 'we' get bonked over the head' for those other bad men's behaviour.

1. You don't know this at all, but would appear to wish to believe it.
2. You don't know this at all, but would appear to wish to believe it.
3. At worst, just suck it up - there is a right to an anger over this, and no 'stranger' woman has any knowledge that you aren't one of the 'bad guys'. At best, argue with the perps, not the victims, as you wish to do here.

We would be happy to read anything that says online abuse of men is equal to online abuse of women, voyageofdad.

Just post your links in this thread.

pondering this...the other change that seems to have occurred over 10-15 years is that there is a sense you should be flattered when a man says something lewd or asks for sex.

Particularly at events/bars etc. In the past, I admit there was a lot of "token" chatting up going on prior to actually asking if the person was interested but it was subtle and I felt able to say "no" with the knowledge that the man would just politely extract himself and move on to his next choice, so to speak. Now rejection is met with "shock horror, you rejected me, now I'm angry" vibe. What is that about?! It's as if they went to a class where they were taught women should be flattered if they are approached?!

I relate to this

"Then I get annoyed because I have a strong sense of "shrug" from my male friends"

ThisIsFolGirl - "But given that men don't carry a warning sign, I have to be cautious. "

Your response is entirely rational.

I don't have daughters but I have a DW and like all men I know perfectly well what men do to women and when my wife goes out at night I worry that she will be attacked by a man.

Men with daughters worry all the time about what the 'boyfriend' might do.

The fear that men have that their female relatives might be attacked by a man is universal around the world and through the ages. We know it. We fear 'other men'. We want to protect our female relatives from 'other men'.

Just for the sake of clarity and fairness though, Voyages, if I'm misinterpreting your posts, could you sum up what it is you are trying to say, please?

Sera, you are right. I find myself almost falling over with gratitude and compliments when I find a man who "gets" it. It's sad alright!

Magaly - I feel as if I should add, they get outraged if I tell them something's happened but they seem to think it's rare, hence the "shrug".

They have pretty much all suggested to me that they think public transport is safer than a mini cab but I don't agree. I do indicate to drivers that I am going home to someone (I'm not) but I like them to think I'm expected home quickly!

For those who don't believe women get the brunt of sexist and vile comments on the web. Rape threats included go do a little research on MGTOW and pick up artisits or just take a look at this glossary of terms many of those groups use

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Manosphere_glossary

Beta I just think it's shocking that that is the case, though. I can see you do too.

The problem is that the reaction to it thus far has been to restrict the movement of women or to find fault with women for drawing attention ti themselves and making thselves a target.

The answer must be for more men to publicly stand up against it.

It needs to be unacceptable for those men to behave like it.

lorelei - I don't think that's something that's changed in the past 10/15 years. I'm pushing 50 and that entitlement/"you must be mad if you don't want to shag me" attitude was certainly around when I was a teenager. As was all the harassment and cat-calling; the difference is that now it makes me furious while in the early 80s it was just what life was like.

I've been thinking about this a lot re my adult DD, who is blond and striking and drives a lot for work. The shit she gets from male drivers is astounding - even with her middle-aged mother in the passenger seat, and worse when she's alone. How fucking dare they?

just to be clear though, is this the same beta who was happy to accuse a female, poster for "not doing enough" (like, resigning or using a Tribunal) when she related on thread that she has put up with nasty comments and decades of undermining at work - and that "millions of other women do even less". Is this the same beta at all? It all sort of undermines your 'white knight' thing doesn't it?

"pondering this...the other change that seems to have occurred over 10-15 years is that there is a sense you should be flattered when a man says something lewd or asks for sex."

That hasn't changed. It was like that 40 years ago!

www.everydaysexism.com/

None of these stories are verified, but the sheer number of the means that it's likely that a high proportion are.

well lots of interesting responses. Key for me is that until this becomes as unusual as to be nonexistent for the vast majority of women, women out in public will be wary of it and are obliged to think thet the men they encounter may be like that. If I assume that the posters saying it is about power not sex are correct well what needs to happen is the men who do it stop wanting to exert power over others or are sufficiently frightened by the thought of the responses of others that they dont ever do it even if they dont want to. Maybe a bit of social education about how it makes people feel and how they can maybe fill their heads with something else or distract themselves whenever they think about doing it. If we ever get to a situation where it doesnt happen at all then the fact that some men think about it will not matter because they will be too mortified to do anything about it.
And I also VERY much think we have as women to stop being fatalistic about it and thinking it is impossible to envisage a world or society where it doesnt happen at all, I mean NEVER EVER. What a gift to future DDs and maybe DSs too for this to be this generations legacy

Whilst #NotAllMen harass women in the street I think #MostMen facilitate the ones that do. I know a lot of men who challenge racism but go along with sexist banter.

Actually, I don't think sexual abuse or harassment have anything to do with the uncontrollable nature of the male sex drive . that's just a shitty excuse abusers use and it's unfair on the vast majority of men, and of course women as a class.

Lots of people get hassled on the internet, I don't think it's disproportionately women tbh.

You said this, vod. Not controversial or argumentative. Just...incorrect. Or do you still believe that?

The media has not helped, it seems to be ok to intimidate and harass women as long as you don't overstep the line (touching) sexism should be treated the same as racism and I am sure a lot less of it would happen.

I worry for my dd, it looks like she will grow into a pretty woman. I always say, I hope she grows to be happy with her looks but not too pretty! lol.