Why ARE some men so horrible to women?

[jezestbelle]

I recently posted about an awful weekend in Paris essentially spoiled by street harassment or other womens sad stories about it. I have to admit it has kind of coloured my view of men as Ive returned to London and to work. I am not naive or stupid, I know that most people do not engage in this kind of behaviour, but Im just really trying to fathom why, what it is they who do it get out of it. I mean if occsaionally a woman cracked and said ok then I will go to bed with you as a result of catcalling or whatever well I still wouldnt agree with it but you could see a certain logic..but I refuse to believe that has ever happened.
Another thing Ive noticed is women I think are almost self hating and almost gravitate to men who treat them badly, again kind of unfathomable... Also am kind of fearful of the male sex drive right now more for my lovely DD than me. If it really is as powerful as they say can it actually be controlled? I know I may sound paranoid but this is where my head is at. I should add that I do know some really lovely kind and genuine guys who would never dream of harassing a woman, I am even wondering about them is it just that they have supreme self control or something?

I don't think it's as simple as that. From when we are children we are taught that men are superior to women. Even women teach their dc that this is the case. It's everywhere and most people don't see it.

the bechdel test . Have a good think about the films that we grew up watching and still do. Do they stand up to this test ? Think about the language used in these family films when two or more women are talking - - 'stop gossiping' ' or tattle tailing' ( eg when men conversate its talking - when women talk it's gossiping ) it's all subtle hints to that women shouldn't be respected. It starts at such an early age and I think that sometimes women can be a part of it.

I used to have things shouted to me and honestly when I was younger I never minded, the day two men out side a pub wolf whistled my 13 year old Dd in her school uniform knocked me sick and I realised that sometimes women can be a part of the problem - or is it that we are/we're so trained to see it as a compliment.

The harrasment is a very small part of a much bigger problem.

Yops most of what you said chimed with me but I think the difference is that even when an approach (over the phone / net / in person) can be "friendly", it is usually or often perceived as a threat by the woman.

So a cold caller trying to sell you insurance is annoying, a cold caller saying will you come and meet me is really scary. The cold caller needs to actually start shouting / making threats / not going away to be seen as scary, whereas with a sexual approach the initial setting is, if not scary, then at least discomfort and trepidation on the part of the recipient.

Henry viii got rid of Catholicism, so why are English Men still misogynistic then?

The majority of English people don't even go to church much anymore, Prince William being an example.

If that is how it makes you feel, Whirlpool, then that is how it is. Not being a woman, it's crass for me to try to tell you how something affects you.

What I wonder about these things is, given the apparently pervasive misogyny in our society, why doesn't everyone act like this? What are the influences and characteristics that mean that a large number of men do not act like this? If we understand that, maybe we move towards a solution.

Is it that large a number? Say a bloke shouts something once, at a girl, when he is a teen, to join in with his mates or show off, and never does it again. he's a "good" bloke, he's learnt the error of his ways, maybe he feels bad about doing it. But as far as that girl was concerned, he's "one of those blokes who shout stuff" IYSWIM.

Certainly I know blokes who have grabbed passing females in the pub, when they were drunk, and I don't think any of them would consider themselves to be "one of those men".

Dunno. Someone is doing it though, and it's a fair amount of someones, all over the world.

But my point wasn't saying that religion has had no impact, I'm saying that it must have been an already (at least somewhat) misogynistic society which allowed such an organisation to start, develop and flourish.

I see your point about white van men and builders regarding education, but I don't believe that IQ and education levels are closely correlated. I also think that those two groups get blamed because of catcalling, which doesn't cover the full level of street harassment.

And some of the worst harassment I've experienced has been from highly educated, entitled twats who seemed to think that a working class woman should be grateful for the attention from the upper levels of society. They were very much mistaken.

I've also been 'saved' from a man harassing me on the train but a group of football fans, who are also not exactly known for their high levels of education.

Henry viii got rid of Catholicism, so why are English Men still misogynistic then?
The king who got rid of catholicism so he could dump his wife and marry his mistress? The one who cut their heads? I think it's clear why misogynism is still around. Or at least that catholicism doesn't have exclusivity over it.

While we're discussing history and religion - Henry viii did not get rid of Catholicism, he simply declared himself head of the Catholic Church in England and gave himself control over church property and granted himself an annulment.

I have always been wary of men for this reason. For some reason I'm a magnet for this type of negative attention, not just in the way men speak to me but also in a physical way, too, in the way they observe me or their body language around me.

I thought that once I had grown out of looking "young" and had children that the cat calling, sexual remarks, inappropriate behaviour would cease. However the closer I get to my 30th the worse it seems to be getting.

I have always been wary of men because of this and felt rather self assured in my own capabilities of staying safe. Unfortunately, these men don't wear big neon signs pointing them out and they could literally be married to your mother - as in my most recent incident.

Aramynta don't worry, by the time you get to 40 a lot of it calms down.

After all, I'm pretty much invisible now.

I mean I do occasionally offend dicks, but not as often.

Henry challenged it, then his Son did, then Mary did, then Cromwell did. Incidentally only Mary 1, has a vile name, bloody Mary.

voyage, I think that what you mean is that some people made misogyny the word of god.

People wrote the rules.
More people followed the rules.

The fault lies with the people. I think I find that blaming 'religion' often feels like it is absolving the individuals of all responsibility.

yes, the free will issue in Catholicism is oft overlooked (though Original Sin still pisses me off a fair bit)

Re name calling and abuse the Equalities Act made all sorts of things unlawful and potential for being actionable. Bitch/cow/slag/ etc never seems to have achieved that status - yet other really unsavoury insults are directly evidenced and used for prosecution.

3 of the largest religions, Christianity, Islam and Judaism are all based on the same book that has misogyny at its heart. They all share the same creation story with Adam and Eve, and we all know how that worked out.

Eve is inferior to Adam in every respect, she is also responsible for man being ousted from paradise. Whether people go to church or not is irrelevant, our society was set up around this model.

Going back, to the Criminal Justice Act 1998 ( I think) we introduced the notion of 'racially-aggravated' offences, which carried a higher penalty on sentence compared with the same offence without that feature.

Would have been a jolly good idea to widen that 'aggravation' to point up the motivation for committing those offences, rather than just saying 'well it was just an assault/criminal damage/public order offence - no discrimination involved against the female victim, despite calling her a slag/cow etc'.

Incidentally only Mary 1, has a vile name, bloody Mary. Mary's reign wasn't exactly exemplary but you're right, no worse than the others. Thomas Moore persecuted protestants but history remembers him kindly.

I think Elizabeth learned a lot from Mary's mistakes and it's one of the reasons she never married.

I'm not sure why posters are giving VOD the time of day...

I am still fighting conditioning. No more engaging from me.

I did ask VoyageofDad a question at 17.25- but he ignored it........

I've run across Voyage before. He actually seems reasonably intelligent but will not be moved on this point, that women might know more about women's experiences than himself. Waste of time trying to shift that goddamned male arrogance.

Of course sexual harassment has nothing to do with male sexual needs and everythng to do with their need to express power dominance. I've had men following me enough times. They do it because they enjoy the sense of superiority and our fear. No other reason.

I remember getting followed home once by some guy who then asked me out. I declined and he became aggressive towards me and kept telling me what a nice guy he was, er, no Mr Creepy Dude you are not a "nice guy."

He used to hang around outside my house and give me evils.