Why ARE some men so horrible to women?

[jezestbelle]

I recently posted about an awful weekend in Paris essentially spoiled by street harassment or other womens sad stories about it. I have to admit it has kind of coloured my view of men as Ive returned to London and to work. I am not naive or stupid, I know that most people do not engage in this kind of behaviour, but Im just really trying to fathom why, what it is they who do it get out of it. I mean if occsaionally a woman cracked and said ok then I will go to bed with you as a result of catcalling or whatever well I still wouldnt agree with it but you could see a certain logic..but I refuse to believe that has ever happened.
Another thing Ive noticed is women I think are almost self hating and almost gravitate to men who treat them badly, again kind of unfathomable... Also am kind of fearful of the male sex drive right now more for my lovely DD than me. If it really is as powerful as they say can it actually be controlled? I know I may sound paranoid but this is where my head is at. I should add that I do know some really lovely kind and genuine guys who would never dream of harassing a woman, I am even wondering about them is it just that they have supreme self control or something?

Objectification is the root cause, at some point females become objects and not fully human.

Jeremy Corbyn apparently now raising the issue of women only train carriages..not being funny but does that expose even.more women who choose or don't know or are tourists etc and get on the mixed carriage . Maybe reading some of the comments here we need women only trains. I worry so so much and I don't even have a DD just a proudly feminist DS

Why not go further and have women only cities where no men are allowed?

Solves the problem completely.

I wasntu suggesting women only cities. I think the train thing worked fairly well in Japan and saw the Corbyn article.

We should have as little woman only things as possible in my mind. WC yes but not sure what else. All other things reinforce the lack of equality.

Maybe the lack of equality needs highlighting?

Could be a good PR stunt...

Where I live we have women's only carriages on the metro and ladies designated seating on the bus. I don't want to be sandwiched between men during rush hour, so I am perfectly happy with it. Women are allowed to sit wherever they like but men can't enter women's seating. But that has nothing to do with possible harassment, it's part of life here. If in the UK they want to address harassment on public transport they should have security guards on board, and whack any idiot that find sit hard to leave women alone.

I agree with a PP, that women have been made objects. And I blame the media, movie, adult and fashion industry for it. Not just because of the way women are presented, but also how it makes girls think you need to be naked and seductive and take Rihanna and Beyoncee as some kind of example.

"One - the biggest influence on most men, while growing up is their mother. So how come, some guys are ending up as they do? This is not a dig at women, just a genuine observation. "

Because at some point boys are encouraged to reject the feminine to become a man

"My religion holds both equally responsible for their sins committed and holds men and women equally responsible for their actions and conduct. Men are at all times obliged to respect women, there is no " what were you wearing".

Could you say a bit more about this? I have never heard of a religion which promotes true equality before.

It can't be Islam, Christianity or Judaism, all the people of the book have misogyny at the heart of their religion.

Why stop with women only carriages ? You could have another carriage for black people too, to protect them from racial abuse, perhaps another for disabled people, etc.

Depends how literally the book is read surely?

And I many be getting cynical in my old age- but "men are obliged to respect women" sets my alarm bells ringing too............

I wonder how many have actually studied the religions they claim to know so much about. I am not by any means very knowledgeable either Christianity or Judaism. But I do know my own religion, Islam, and men and women ARE equally responsible. But in order to really know, you have to study it. Properly. The Islamic story of Adam and Eve is different from the Christian "version". We don believe in original sin, and women being some kind of evil seductress that were punished with child birth. (by the way if that is not true, please correct me on that) I am quite feminist, and could not live with a belief that puts me down or takes my rights. And my religion does NOT allow men to harass or assault women, it does not allow cat calling or any of that nonsense. What does it tell men to do? It tells them to lower their gaze and not look. And if they have their urges, get married.

But I agree with what others have said; harassment and rape have nothing to do with sexual urges. It's about power.

One - the biggest influence on most men, while growing up is their mother. So how come, some guys are ending up as they do? This is not a dig at women, just a genuine observation

This ^^ I grew up watching my grandmother waiting on three adult men, getting up to warm their overalls, make their sandwiches, then go to work all day her self then come home and serve them their tea when they got in from the pub.

Mil devoted her whole life to her two ds and FIL who actually all three couldn't give a shit about her now. She now feels refundant and bitter.

I said waaaaaaaaay up thread that sometimes women do play apart of this if they realise it or not. Sons do get treated differently. I believe patriarchy starts at home.

I was pretty sure you were going to say Islam.

You're absolutely happy that Islam and feminism are completely compatible?

There are followers of pretty much all religions who can reconcile their more secular philosophies surely? Blaming religions is IMO a smokescreen for the power/control that is the real issue.

Same as blaming religions for war etc. I think.

"One - the biggest influence on most men, while growing up is their mother. So how come, some guys are ending up as they do? This is not a dig at women, just a genuine observation"

A cursory glance over mumsnet will reveal the glaring truth that many women are not feminists.

Actually yes Bert, they are. Because feminism is about having choice. Unfortunately, feminism is now something that takes men as the standard that women measure themselves on. Islam allows me to be who I want to be, whether it is a wife and mother, professional or both. But I am respected as I am; A woman. I am not a man, I am not like a man. We are different. Physically, emotionally, we are not the same.

But I do understand where you're coming from Bert, because when I am in Europe and see or read the media, I see how Islam is being presented. That women are all oppressed and forced to cover up because men can't control themselves, that men are tyrants that are allowed to beat up their wives and lock them in the house right? That's what you see. And yes, some people ARE like that. But that is not what Islam teaches us. I can go on about it for a long time, as obviously it's something dear to me, it's my faith and way of life. So when it's portrayed in such a negative way, I feel I have to challenge that. And also because what I see around me, the way my friend's husbands love their daughters, wives and are devoted to them and their mothers. The way my friends raise their boys. The way men in Islamic classes are constantly reminded of the rights of women, how they are to be loved an respected. But these things don't make it to the media. it's not interesting and news worthy.

And you are right keepithidden, people tend to blame religion for many wrongs in the world. But it's people who abuse it. And then people assume that that is what religion teaches people to do. But people do many wrongs for many reasons.

But isn't it blaming the woman for ending up serving up the men at home (who in fact don't give a damn about her) instead of the actual culprits who don't lift a finger at home?

I remember the all so great days at the ILs, where I'd struggle to get OH to do anything, while I was expected to offer to work. And the men even took their bloody time to go to the bloody table when ready, as if they were doing us a favour.

Of course it reflected at home at key times, although OH was quite good, and it's no surprise we divorced eventually, although the immediate cause was dv.

Lweji you are so right. A huge factor in a man's life and the way he is raised is his father. They are the role models for boys, and they need to step up and teach them how to be respectful to women.

What does "respectful to women" mean?

Exactly BR I think you can see yourself as "respectful to women" yet still hold quite old fashioned views.

I disagree that all the women on here are feminists.

Yes, feminism is about having the choice, but you have to know that there is a choice.

I get so frustrated reading threads on here from women who have bought into the boys will be boys type thinking. We have to let them have their little ways. He 'helps' around the house. He has his needs...

It's frustrating in the extreme. I've argued with people on here and irl and I'm not a 'militant' feminist.

But I listen to the way parents of my children's peers have spoken over the years and I despair. And whilst it is the dads too, I think I just assume most women would have a vested interest in improving the lot for their own daughters or ensuring their son's are a voice for change, given that they have the benefit of eexperience. But no, I hear the same tired crap over and over again.

Fox, why do men in Islamic classes need to be reminded of the rights of women? Why would they ever forget?

I think Islam is a widely misunderstood religion, but to promote it as a religion of equality is rather odd.

25% of UK mosques don't admit women.