Why ARE some men so horrible to women?

[jezestbelle]

I recently posted about an awful weekend in Paris essentially spoiled by street harassment or other womens sad stories about it. I have to admit it has kind of coloured my view of men as Ive returned to London and to work. I am not naive or stupid, I know that most people do not engage in this kind of behaviour, but Im just really trying to fathom why, what it is they who do it get out of it. I mean if occsaionally a woman cracked and said ok then I will go to bed with you as a result of catcalling or whatever well I still wouldnt agree with it but you could see a certain logic..but I refuse to believe that has ever happened.
Another thing Ive noticed is women I think are almost self hating and almost gravitate to men who treat them badly, again kind of unfathomable... Also am kind of fearful of the male sex drive right now more for my lovely DD than me. If it really is as powerful as they say can it actually be controlled? I know I may sound paranoid but this is where my head is at. I should add that I do know some really lovely kind and genuine guys who would never dream of harassing a woman, I am even wondering about them is it just that they have supreme self control or something?

colours, it's very hard to accept that you are privileged by society. We all like to think we got where we are due to hard work and nothing else. But i recognise that I'm privileged due to the fact that I'm white, straight and was born in a house where science and study were valued, and in an area with a grammar school system.

I think that all people would benefit from recognising their own privilege. It's something that I think men need to do on a large scale.

I think that all people would benefit from recognising their own privilege

yy to this

Not sure being straight is a privilege!!!

Glad VoD finally gets it - listen to what women are saying to you rather than getting grumpy we aren't kowtowing to your opinion.

I've been catcalled in broad daylight, I've also had men come up to me and grab my bum/boobs in broad daylight. I've been kerb crawled in broad daylight too. My reaction then was to silently seethe. Now I scream "Fuck off!!!" or flip the bird...

My tolerance of sexual harrassment is steeply declining. Unfortunately I still have a coworker who finds excuses to come up behind me and shake my shoulders when I'm wearing a dress with a neckline slightly lower than normal.

DrMobius - being straight is a privilege.

If you are gay and walking down the street with your boyfriend/girlfriend, you are hugely more likely to attract abuse, ridicule, violence.

Privilege is often the absence of abuse, police harrassment, the threat of violence rather than the presence of a tangible benefit.

Really, DrM?! As a straight person I haven't had to fight for my right to marriage, adoption, sharing a hotel room with my partner. I don't have various religions telling me that my sexuality is wrong and I've never, ever been discriminated against because of my sexuality. Damn right being straight is one of the reasons I'm privileged (ie that my life is easier even though I don't deserve it).

Amelia I quite agree re acknowledging privilege. In my experience the men I know even the outwardly successful ones are riddled with below the surface self doubt and terrified of failure, whether career or personal. It takes an enormous effort of will to admit to this self doubt and risk the ridicule of others. Actually how does it hurt you the ridicule of others compared to a young woman crying in her bedroom having been followed home or a young gay man scared to go out in case he is assaulted or indeed a refugee braving the high seas to escape war ..it does not and I lastly I would like to declare my privilege at being brought up in a family of feisty Irish females..as well as a kind and loving father..who took it as their personal mission to ensure I did not mistake male privilege for male superiority. The women in my family would have had me hung drawn and quartered had they got any wind of me disrespecting another woman, and I must say today I am grateful for it.

I thought Voyage of Dad was being sarcastic with "listen to the women" - given earlier posts?

"I thought Voyage of Dad was being sarcastic with "listen to the women" - given earlier posts? confused"

He was.

Too many Pans!!!!

PanGalacticGargleBlaster - someone named from a drink from HHGttG

MaillotRojoPan - me, from Pandora's Jar and the very naughty Greek deity, currently wearing a red Spanish jersey.

Damn right being straight is one of the reasons I'm privileged (ie that my life is easier even though I don't deserve it).

For some reason talk of privilege always reminds me of The Simpsons:

Grampa: I'm old, no-one listens to me!
Lisa: I'm a girl, no-one listens to me!
Homer: I'm a white male, aged between 25 and 49, everyone listens to me no matter how ridiculous my opinions.

I'm soooo glad the site is back!!!!

Being straight is a massive privilege and makes your life so much easier. If you are gay there are whole groups of people who don't even think you have the right to life, let alone an opinion.

There are obviously many paradoxes around this subject. One - the biggest influence on most men, while growing up is their mother. So how come, some guys are ending up as they do? This is not a dig at women, just a genuine observation.

I posted up thread - I work in the ME and have never seen a woman harassed in the street. Yet I know women are very much seen as second class (at best). I recently had the excruciating experience of a colleague telling me, how despite telling his wife (while courting) that he would not take a second wife. He was planning to take a second wife. His wife had just given birth and he was going to “give her a year” before dropping the bombshell (which may mean he would divorce her and she would lose the child, if she did not accept his plan). When I asked him if he loved his wife, he looked surprised by the question and replied that of course he did .

Interesting that religion is being brought up and assumed that all are the same when it comes to the Adam and Eve issue. My religion holds both equally responsible for their sins committed and holds men and women equally responsible for their actions and conduct. Men are at all times obliged to respect women, there is no " what were you wearing". There is culture that might pass the responsibility to women alone, and do not hold men responsible for not being able to control their primal urges for lack of a better description. I do believe media has a huge role to play. Women ARE presented as meat really, women are soooo heavily sexualized. Want to sell a car? Drape a blonde in short dress over it. Women in movies? Rarely the heroine, often the sexy side kick that needs saving. Men's magazines front covers, language used to describe women? What about the adult industry? Not good for men and women at all.

And then there is the good old raising of boys teaching them to respect women. As there is teaching women to respect themselves.

ps/ I mentioned the ME story because of UbiquityTree's post, forgot to mention that. (well I have waited 24 hours to post)

DrMorbius "One - the biggest influence on most men, while growing up is their mother. So how come, some guys are ending up as they do?"

is it?

I am one of those people who think parents are much much less of an influence than people think. But even so, if your parents never mention this to you and you grow up with a TV/media culture which thinks it's okay, it can still turn out that a guy thinks this behaviour is okay. Or even if your parents do talk about it, how many times will they say to their son "don't behave like that"? Once? They aren't going to know if their teen is cat calling at women in the street, are they?

There are obviously many paradoxes around this subject. One - the biggest influence on most men, while growing up is their mother. So how come, some guys are ending up as they do? This is not a dig at women, just a genuine observation. What are the chances that the mother is a feminist though? Men, some men, have no problem separating mothers from fuckable females, the whole madonna / whore complex. So, even if they respect their mum it doesn't mean they will respect all women.

Did anyone watch that 'Sex in class' programme on C4? I was very interested to see how bold and show-offy the boys were and how quiet the girls were on the issue of sex and consent. Once the girls realised they were not the only one non-plussed by the boys just expecting to be able to jizz on their faces after sex and spoke up, the boys learnt a lot and the girls felt far more empowered.

I think this is where we are going wrong as a society - the porn is taking over the reality of what girls are happy to do but girls don't openly talk about it and think all other girls are doing it. Guys get away with it and girls just grin and bear it and end up assuming that it must be the status quo. So some men have simply never had a woman who says no to things most might and other men have had strong women educating them on consent from the start. It's not a woman's place to educate the men by any stretch, but I do feel we need to be empowering our youth with these debates at the very least.

I didn't think to watch that programme. They really discussed that? interesting. (I think this is the show I read about that is pushing the boundaries, allegedly?)

I do have a vague perception that porn is making teenagers have a very different set of attitudes than in my day!! (sorry to say "in my day"!!)

That's so true Jeffrey, porn is getting nastier and nastier, it's the weapon of choice for the patriarchy and they use it to educate our children about sex.

It has the broader reaches of using women as objects which is where I think catcalling can come in too - some women really do go out of their way to look a way they deem 'acceptable' because of porn. The boys on the show all chose the hairless 'vulva' (sorry I don't want to get the terminology wrong!) despite the teacher saying "don't you think that looks a little like a child's; hairless?" and they all said it was 'normal in porn' or something to that effect.
I'd recommend watching it because I think her point that if this isn't addressed at school then more men will have some iffy ideas about what women think and what they are allowed to do (eg - one boy openly admitting he had dumped girls for being hairy down there or not letting him jizz on their face). The lad admitted at the end he had never been told this wasn't what women wanted or what was normal and sounded very apologetic but also raised the point women have to say something. I think he has a point; we can't expect men to be mind readers and we aren't supporting them with role models in this area. If feminism is going wrong somewhere I think it is by not exploring this a bit more and dealing with these issues to help men early on and encourage our friends and daughters to talk to each other about their own boundaries so that they have the strength of their convictions.

Jeffrey - I hate calling anyone Jeffrey! - I think generally parents need to have frank conversations with their kids about boundaries and deciding what's okay for you. Mine did, but I think lots don't.