Why ARE some men so horrible to women?

[jezestbelle]

I recently posted about an awful weekend in Paris essentially spoiled by street harassment or other womens sad stories about it. I have to admit it has kind of coloured my view of men as Ive returned to London and to work. I am not naive or stupid, I know that most people do not engage in this kind of behaviour, but Im just really trying to fathom why, what it is they who do it get out of it. I mean if occsaionally a woman cracked and said ok then I will go to bed with you as a result of catcalling or whatever well I still wouldnt agree with it but you could see a certain logic..but I refuse to believe that has ever happened.
Another thing Ive noticed is women I think are almost self hating and almost gravitate to men who treat them badly, again kind of unfathomable... Also am kind of fearful of the male sex drive right now more for my lovely DD than me. If it really is as powerful as they say can it actually be controlled? I know I may sound paranoid but this is where my head is at. I should add that I do know some really lovely kind and genuine guys who would never dream of harassing a woman, I am even wondering about them is it just that they have supreme self control or something?

I have not experienced much overt sexual harassment by men. I have more negative memories of being harassed by male 'townies' for being dressed alternatively - so 'fucking fraggle' (late '80s!!) and also for not conforming to expected standards of beauty - 'fucking lesbian' and for being red haired 'oi ginge' etc. I have been robust in deflecting unwanted sexual advances and rarely encountered issues - much of my twenties I was clubbing in warehouses or gay clubs (in the former they were all too loved up on substances and in the latter ... well gay).

The harassment I have experienced I always put down to lack of imagination and positive role models - I feel the same way about animalistic sexual catcalling in the street. Ignorance and some hate and a desperate desire to be noticed and acknowledged... feeling better if there is someone you can debase more than you feel debased. I don't know. I do know that the men in my family are better than that. Not lacking the empathy that makes shouting at someone in the street or a night club unimaginable.

"I disagree that all the women on here are feminists."

I don't think anyone said they were, did they?

"Yes, feminism is about having the choice, but you have to know that there is a choice."

Feminism is not just about having choices.

These Islamic classes. Are they taught by women?

Feminism is simply the principle of equal rights based on equality of the sexes.

If you believe that you're a feminist.

If you're not a feminist you need to hand back your right to education, to vote, work, drive etc, stay at home and knit.

So, all western women are feminists, but some still subscribe to sexist stereotypes of male behaviour became they don't have education or the confidence to question them.

I think it's part of the inequality that still exists, the women need men's approval more than men need women's, so a lot of women (younger, less thoughtful, less effected by inequalities, or, still trading on their youth and looks whether they realise it or not), they reject the label.

Is there anything that you as a muslim woman can't do that a muslim man could?

"So, all western women are feminists"

I soooooooooo disagree with this! You can't be a passive feminist. There are women who ride on the coat tails of feminists- but they are not-definitely not- feminists themselves.

Bert, respectful to women is exactly that. What is this thread about? Disrespect. cat calling, harassment. Even sexual assault. Men thinking women are just objects for them to use. Now think of the opposite. That's respect.

Yes, I have what people might consider as old fashioned views, with regards to men's and women's roles in society. But I still demand respect from men. Just because I have these views doesn't make me any less worth or any less important than a man.

Bert, apart from having more than 1 wife I can't think of anything. But then, a Muslim men (or any men) can't bear children. A Muslim man can't ask his wife to share in the house hold costs (think my money is mine, and his money is ours). So both sexes are limited as to what they can do.

It's not about respect for women though, is it? Respect implies special treatment, putting on a pedestal. What we are talking about is being treated as an equal. As a fellow human being.

Is there anything that as a Muslim woman you can't do that as a Muslim man you could?

I soooooooooo disagree with this! You can't be a passive feminist. There are women who ride on the coat tails of feminists- but they are not-definitely not- feminists themselves.

I agree with this. It's exactly the same as workers in a company benefitting from the rights that the union has won for them, but not belonging to the union and voting for political parties that actively seek to curb the power of the union. If that makes any sense.

Twinklestein. So 75% of the mosques do. Which is a majority. And a woman can't be stopped from attending the mosque, and I would not be quiet about it if I were to live in that kind of area.

Why do Muslim men need reminders about respecting women? Well, ALL men need these reminders. At least Muslim men ARE receiving these reminders. The fact that this thread exists shows men need to be reminded.

MorrisZapp, these classes are taught by by men and women.

I don't think mothers are solely responsible for it but they do some times set the foundations of young males feeling more privaliged/entitled than females - regardless if they mean it or not. But that will be learned behaviour passed down from many many generations.

Men have always been treated far more superior than women since day dot, it's just that misogyny is so ingrained people don't see it till its smacking you in the face! (Dick heads cat calling) After a life time of it drilled in to them (subcon or not) why can't they pass comment that some one has a great pair of tits.

There are waaay more men that think like this than those who don't.

It's a running joke in my family about a relative who still brushes her DS teeth while he is watching TV, or getting him dressed for school, she still cuts up his food. - he is 4. Mummy little man. When in reality he is already being trained to believe that women are there to service every need.

I filmly believe that untill mothers change the way their PB Ds are treated and DDs are not expected to do womens work while the menz sit on their arses - nothing will change.

But Bert, what do you consider as being equal? People have different definitions for that.

At the end of the day, this thread is about women-hating men harassing and assaulting women. It's wrong, and no women should have to go through it. There is no excuse, never. Whatever you wear, think, what race or religion you follow. It's as simple as that.

I soooooooooo disagree with this! You can't be a passive feminist. There are women who ride on the coat tails of feminists- but they are not-definitely not- feminists themselves.

Well I disagree with you. If 'passive' feminism involves being educated, working, driving, voting, expecting all of those rights and using them, then they're feminists.

Some women say they're not because they afraid men won't want to fuck them or because they swallowed distorted negative stereotypes of feminists in the media and their social milieu.

A quarter don't admit women Fox, and the ones that do have gender segregation.

I firmly believe mothers and fathers must change how they raise their boys and girls.
It's important that fathers are good examples. And that men expect it from each other and challenge each other too.

Or it will continue to be an us vs them as the anti-feminists would have us believe.

Feminism is not defined by activism and it is nonsense to say only activity gives you the right to 'carry the card' - feminist views can be held privately just like any philosophy or otherwise I would not be able to view myself as a marxist because I am not actively dismantling capitalism today. It is a way of thinking/ critiquing, a filter through which to view the world. There are of course actions you can take but the way in which the world can and should be changed - practically speaking - is not predetermined and not every feminist is in agreement about methodology.

"Feminism is not defined by activism and it is nonsense to say only activity gives you the right to 'carry the card' - feminist views can be held privately just like any philosophy oFeminism is not defined by activism and it is nonsense to say only activity gives you the right to 'carry the card' - feminist views can be held privately just like any philosophy"
Of course. But you don't become a feminist just by being a woman in the Western world. You have to do something- but that something can be deciding to be a feminist and hold feminist views. And at the very least, not denying those views if asked about them

A lot of women support the patriarchy very actively, even though they benefit from the rights that feminists have won for them, they surely cannot be feminists.

You have to do something- but that something can be deciding to be a feminist and hold feminist views. And at the very least, not denying those views if asked about them

I completely disagree. The only women I would describe as genuinely not feminist are women who actively do not believe that women are equal to men, and do not believe they should have equal rights.

For Western women, by whose I mean raised in the West with Western values (ie values that have been strongly impacted by feminist philosophy) if they are educated, they work, they vote, in short if they utilise all the rights that previous feminists fought so hard for - they are feminists whether they admit it or not.

If a woman believes she should be paid equally for the same job as a man, that belief is founded on the principle of equality, the cornerstone of feminism.

If a woman is genuinely not a feminist, then she needs to be prepared to hand back all those rights.

Take all these so-called non-feminist women back to 1860 - no right to education, to most work, to vote, to their own assets after marriage, even their own children, they would all discover that they are actually feminists pdq.

And 75%, the majority, do. The 25% should be addressed. And of course men and women pray separately, have you ever seen Muslims pray? There is proper physical contact with the person next to you and since both genders are required to be focused on their prayer it makes no sense to have men and women mixed in prayer.

But you choose to see gender segregation as a negative regardless of any reason or wisdom behind it. If you choose to se negativity in whatever had logic or reason or benefit then we can talk forever.

Your and my idea of equality, gender is totally different and that's ok, we are free to do so.

Well Twinklestein by the definition of your last post Islam is 100% feminist.

It's really not.

Why do 25% of mosques even 'need addressing' if Islam is so equalist? Why do Muslim women need specialised domestic violence services in the UK, because their patriarchal culture tries to stop women who are being abused from speaking out, and punishes them if they do?

Why 'of course' should men and women should pray separately? I've seen Muslims pray, I've also seen happy clappy Xtian Evangelicals pray - who horror of horrors - also touch each other, and they managed it just fine.

Are 50% of Imams women?

Do women regularly lead men in prayer?