Why ARE some men so horrible to women?

[jezestbelle]

I recently posted about an awful weekend in Paris essentially spoiled by street harassment or other womens sad stories about it. I have to admit it has kind of coloured my view of men as Ive returned to London and to work. I am not naive or stupid, I know that most people do not engage in this kind of behaviour, but Im just really trying to fathom why, what it is they who do it get out of it. I mean if occsaionally a woman cracked and said ok then I will go to bed with you as a result of catcalling or whatever well I still wouldnt agree with it but you could see a certain logic..but I refuse to believe that has ever happened.
Another thing Ive noticed is women I think are almost self hating and almost gravitate to men who treat them badly, again kind of unfathomable... Also am kind of fearful of the male sex drive right now more for my lovely DD than me. If it really is as powerful as they say can it actually be controlled? I know I may sound paranoid but this is where my head is at. I should add that I do know some really lovely kind and genuine guys who would never dream of harassing a woman, I am even wondering about them is it just that they have supreme self control or something?

No they don't. Do they need to be? Men can't bear babies, do they need to?

You said there was nothing that you could think of that, as a Muslim woman that you couldn't do that as a Muslim man you could- except taking a second wife.

You now agree that you can't be an Imam, or lead men in prayer.

Carrying babies and breastfeeding is biology.
Men are also stronger than women in general and are often assigned tasks that require more physical strain. Still biology.
Leading in prayer is social.

FFS - the taking of a second wife as an exclusively male privilege undermines your argument about the equality of the Islamic religion!

I know, this wife really isn't servicing my needs to my satisfaction, I'll pop out for another, after all it's not as if they are sentient humans with feelings or anything is it?

I think that feminism has had a lot of bad press - just when I thought we were coming out of the "they are all dykes with no chance of getting a man" bollocks there is this new wave of it being acceptable to call any woman a "feminazi" for daring to even 'like' a feminist quote on FB. I had a guy (friend of a friend) haranguing me (personal attacks) because I liked my friend's post on FB! He went on to say that "feminazi's like must be stopped before they completely kill our planet and poison everyones[sic] minds!"
I've never met this guy before and said as much to which he started banging on about Ched Evans not being a rapist... It was surreal.
No one came out to defend my friend on her thread, so I did. I pointed out her post was nothing to do with Ched and posted a link to consent. He went on for hours and finally blocked me.
The fact he decided to call me a feminazi was a way to minimalise my argument - same as the ad hominem attacks - but the lack of anyone else coming along to say "WTF!" was a real eye opener as he was clearly being aggressive, sexist and rude for no reason. THAT in my mind is why people don't want to call themselves feminists. It's cowardly but I'd say most women who shy away from labelling themselves as a feminist are worried that they will be perceived in the way I was. If you suddenly told these women they couldn't vote because they didn't think they were feminists they would possibly change their minds if it meant getting their power back, but thankfully that would never happen.

There are an awful lot of misogynist twonks on the internet who have major, major problems with women.

If you hate women and have no friends, what have you got but the internet?

I think if you're male and hate hate women, you've got lots of alternatives to the internet, and maybe with quite a lot of friends who think the same. I suspect there you, Twinklestein understandably, wish to characterise trolls/angry male posters in a particular way, but the level of suspicion/fear of women generally means one has a sound bedrock from which feel supported. It's far from the male with a string vest and a can of Stella to hand getting his rocks off insulting females from his keyboard. imo and ime.

I was responding to pp - who experienced a random guy on the net attacking her.

My point was not that all misogynists are online, but that her experience was common.

I was attacked on line too. I post on a smaller site and there was a male poster who used to remember everything I said, and then repeat it all back giving it a negative interpretation. If I posted something lighthearted he'd mock me, If I posted something serious he'd say my problems were my own fault. eg, i posted about giving my children my name and he said that was ''abusive''. He was relentlessly critical. like a wolf in sheeps clothing he would 'gently' encourage me to blame myself for everything I ever mentioned on that board. On that site it was much harder to name change and he would sniff me out every time I name-changed too. The weird thing is he wanted to meet up in real life He said he could "help me".

Sorry for venting about it but that went on from 2007 - 2011 until I just totally totally stopped engaging with him at all. I'd been defending myself to him for about four years. Then when he figured out I wasn't responding to his slurs and accusations on line, he sent me a linkedin request, he messaged me on fb (although we weren't friends) wanting to go for a beer.
The biggest ASSHOLE I've ever had the misfortune to come up against. He hates women. And he loves putting them on trial and making them defend themself. I fell for it for years.

Old cadet - that's a scary story - what kind of delusional person things they will meet up with someone they are harassing.

I have occasionally been honked at and one time someone yelled MILF, which I was rather pleased with... But Some of my friends get really upset about the same things. I feel for men sometimes who can hardly open their mouths without accidentally offending someone or looking where they shouldn't be..
I don't know what sort of animals threaten to kill people etc online.

I don't honk at people. I also don't tell the woman who sits 2 desks away from me that I have been in love with her for 2 years.Oh well.

OLDcadet that sounds horrible. I have noticed some male posters do seem to like 'following' female posters on comments sections and try to tear strips off them - especially if they are intelligent and make good points.

My friend is also being followed on another site by an older man who claimed to have been to Oxbridge. He comments on every comment she makes, regardless of topic, very aggressively telling her she is talking "bullshit" and then not explaining why but going on to call her names such as 'lazy' and accusing her of being unable to accept criticism because she had asked him to stop trying to intimidate her without actually posting any facts to backing up his POV. It is a site about discussing particular articles. A group of these men go around the comments section shouting down female Professors and moaning when their comments get deleted for being not constructive (a mild way of saying abusive and not adding to any debate) as really being deleted because they dared to voice a contrary opinion They are all 50+ white and male. If you need a crash course in entitlement and white male privilege it is a great place to get an insight.

Saw this and seeing as we had mentioned it earlier thought it was worth posting www.independent.co.uk/life-style/dating/feminist-tinder-user-creates-instagram-account-to-document-responses-to-the-word-feminist-10470951.html
That is why many women won't call themselves feminists; it frequently feels like you are asking for trouble, which is ridiculous.

Interesting article Jeffrey

you put your head above the parapet as soon as you say you're a feminist.

"I feel for men sometimes who can hardly open their mouths without accidentally offending someone or looking where they shouldn't be.. "

Oh, I know. Poor loves. It must be so hard for them.

There is a group on Facebook called Women Against Feminism. It is run by women, for women, and as far as I know (disclaimer: I could be wrong), it isn't a plot by men to undermine the movement. Whatever your viewpoint, it does make for interesting reading about some women's perception of feminism.

I mention it because whilst there are men who will seek to undermine feminism because of their own insecurities, there are also normal, sane human beings who have issues with it.

This is a genuine question. I have tried to ask it before and been shouted down- but I really want to know.

What do people mean when they say that feminists don't want equality, they want superiority? It's a recurring theme. Lots of the pictures on that FB page mention it. Whenever there's a debate about feminism on here people say it. I don't know what it means.

I think that the people who I know who say that Bertrand genuinely believe that we live in an equal society. They also, when gently probed , believe a whole raft of facts that are just pure fiction eg women are as violent as men, just as many men are abused within the home, women have the opportunity to gain power in society but y'know just don't choose to actually do that. So, any woman who claims we are unequal appears to be wanting superiority.

They don't see the point to feminists as society is so equal and lovely and we have the vote and everything, so why on earth are we getting our knickers in a twist when we should be focussing on more important things.

I don't know, Bertrand, because despite being a man, I don't believe it to be true of the feminists I have encountered on here. Perhaps there are some way-out women on the extremes of the movement who believe it, but from what I've read, it isn't true of the mainstream.

I guess you need someone here to pipe up who does believe it. The first picture on their Tumblr that I saw mention it was the 18th pic down. The women there seem to have other recurring themes - at least the ones I saw.

"I guess you need someone here to pipe up who does believe it. The first picture on their Tumblr that I saw mention it was the 18th pic down. The women there seem to have other recurring themes - at least the ones I saw."

What's your point?

I mention it because whilst there are men who will seek to undermine feminism because of their own insecurities, there are also normal, sane human beings who have issues with it.

At the risk of being utterly flamed, it is my observations that feminism is a very broad church of thought that is very far from united, often has internal squabbles, most definitely sends out mixed messages in terms of its aims and goals and indeed, how to achieve them as well as boasting a loud sizable minority amongst its ranks that can only be described as outright bigots and misandrists. For many people, men and women, despite supporting the notion of feminism they just get either intimidated by the movement or just plain bored with the endless arguing, judgements, oneupmanship and at times very antagonistic approach to debate. There was a thread on here a few months back asking why people don't comment on the feminist section of this site and many felt they were either deliberately made to feel stupid for not being up to speed on the latest feminist theory/literature or outright abused for having views that did not align with official orthodoxy. It's a rather sad state of affairs when your own gender are being alienated from being proactive feminists.

I am a man. I would describe myself as a humanist and a feminist, and by the latter I mean I support the equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women. However, if I try to engage in debate, or witness another man do likewise online, it is not long before the rather sneering 'what about the menz' or a patronising 'awww.....you poor little things' or 'stop mansplaining', which is pretty much up there as screaming 'wacist' when talking about immigration if you want to shut down debate. As it was bluntly pointed out up thread when offering my musings 'I don't speak for all men' but I can with confidence speak for myself, my male friends and my wider peer group that we support equality for women but for many of us a movement that many years ago started out as a legitimate effort to advocate for women's equality, has been transformed in some quarters, into a hate movement. By that I mean many feminist seeing themselves only as victims, and victims cannot exist without a villain, in this instance, men. In order for this thesis to have any kind of logic, some feminists have made sweeping, inaccurate judgments about an entire demographic, based on nothing more than their gender. I rarely engage these days as it is....well....just hard work and often bruising, I try my best to follow and support the sentiments in the first line of this paragraph through deeds and actions rather than waste hours online talking about it.

(dons fire retardant overalls)