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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Support for those in Emotionally Abusive Relationships

1000 replies

ViVee · 20/05/2011 21:49

I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread, a place to vent, offer support, advice.

I'm in an emotionally abusive relationship but I'm trying to find the tools to fight back - I've recently started counselling & the Lundy Bancroft book (Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds of Angry and Controlling Men) (recommended by mumsnetters) has become my bible.

Anyone else feel the same?

OP posts:
bejeezus · 22/06/2011 11:46

Hissy- I can really relate to what you are saying about our family..my mums attitude is what is the most painful for me at the moment. She seems to have taken his side in our seperation. The first time I got an inkling of this was about 3 years ago when my stbxh was drinking very very heavily. The whole family were going away to spent xmas together (me, him, kids, my sister, bil, mum dad) me and stbxh had to go up a day after everyone else because of work commitments (dm & df had taken kids for us). half an hour before we were leaving HE announced that he wasnt coming because I had been horrible to him Hmm he had only arrived back at the house half an hour before that, from a 3 day bender, so I had 'had words'. I begged and pleeded but he wouldnt come. I cried the whole 4 hour drive. When I arrived my mum went mad at me- saying I was horrid and I had ruined xmas for everyone!

she mnimises everything he does 'oh men are like that' 'he does more than most men' 'your dad doesnt help out either' 'you need to be nicer to him' 'you should make his dinners/do his ironing' etc etc. She knows full well he does NOTHING and is very very rarely around, cant be relied on for anything. This is despite her having evidence of him cheating on me and once when I was pregnant she had to come and collect me at 1am as he had pulled me to the floor by my hair and kicked me in the stomach/bump.

Since Ive made the decision to leave, I will cut her off if she starts this shit. But it still hurts like hell. Thank christ for my lovely dad.

I dont understand it at all. I am starting to think that they get sucked in and fooled as much as we do?? Sad

I also spent/spend alot of time feeling so so guilty for the worry that I cause my family

bejeezus · 22/06/2011 11:48

thats mad me think actually- my mum was really worried about our relationship right at the start (mixed cultures)--maybe she found a way of dealing with it..and so cant see/hear the reality-somekind of defence shield in place??

bejeezus · 22/06/2011 11:55

oh...just read IMAMPs post about why families do that--shes already said about them protecting themselves Smile

It has reminded me of a friends situation also...shes not so close with me but over the last couple of months she has started telling me about her relationship with her dh...he is very abusive. she left him and stayed at a friends house. I encouraged her to tell her parents (mostly because she has lots of dcs and her dps live close by-i thought she needed practical and emotional support-particularly from her dad) she told them- they said they dont want to get involved in her marriage Shock Sad its set her back- she went back to him and back to denial

dementedma · 22/06/2011 12:40

mouse you made me cry.(and I'm in work!! )
Absolutely hit the nail on the head with everything you said. I know you are there and thank God for you. I don't phone you as I don't "do" personal stuff very well so being able to unload anonymously on here and on the other thread is very good for me. But I know you are there, along with Thurso who also understands the marriage bit.
Thank you.
I am making plans.....one day....one day.....

HerHissyness · 22/06/2011 14:34

Ma, would it help if I told you that I smoked cannabis every single day, to whack myself out before he came home?

Had I been in a country with decent alcohol, i'd have been drinking instead

That girl i wrote about upthread? she took sleeping tablets, it's called survival.

I came back here, and 3m later gave up smoking altogether.

When you can, you will get out, you will kick this habit, you will be happy, healthy and well!

HerHissyness · 22/06/2011 14:38

bigbuttons - may I suggest you hide the knives and blunt instruments from yourself...

Jesus christ!

HerHissyness · 22/06/2011 14:44

bejeezus, I am so sorry to hear about your mum, that is dreadful. no explaining that away is there? Sad

I wish I had have said something to my sister now, but I was in shock, she told me she saw my texts, my emails but chose to ignore them. it wasn't that she was busy, but that she didn't want to reply. she also said it was all about me, me me, but I know it wasn't.

I got such sporadic communications from all of them, and was in such a bizarre place I had no idea what was going on in the world much of the time, so I'd ask about work, H fun, etc but if I have nothing to reference how much can I spin it out.

You gotta love the blameshifters somehow haven't you. Instead of a time when family ought to be helping you, I was left to think that the only person in my life was actually the person abusing me.

there he was trying to isolate me from them, and there they were trying not to get involved. how the hell does that work.

She reckons she rang WA for support, but was told that they only help victims not families of the abused.

She has a point, families need help to support those that have fallen into the clutches of an abuser. OK so she may be under his spell, but there must be ways, words phrases we can use to stop her in her tracks and make her think? surely?

barbiegrows · 22/06/2011 16:35

bigbuttons re: craft fair - we have been like that for years. Particularly on outings - so we came to an unspoken agreement for holidays (he never speaks to agree anything) that in the mornings I would make the choices, in the afternoon, he would. The difficult bit was that he never 'played ball' - he would always make my bit difficult and seem to grudge being there. So I would just do what we wanted anyway but there would be subtle repercussions later. The trouble with this attitude is that it makes you defensive. I find I am now assuming the worst from him and sometimes disagree with him before I've thought it through. I am aware that I have learnt to be like that, and my awareness of abuse and accepting that it exists has helped me to not be like that with other people, which I was also starting to do. I became defensive all round, expecting that people were trying to push me into things (not in a psychotic way - just subtle and never voiced). The minute I realised this abuse was going on I realised that I don't need to be defensive as the only person attacking is him, and he's not worth fighting.

barbiegrows · 22/06/2011 16:43

ma and mouseface - regarding Benny Hill - way back in the thread we described how you just have to bend down in front of a cupboard and they're up behind you. It's about me making it quite clear I don't want a hug and him almost chasing me round the house in a Benny Hill kind of way. The theme tune is all we need.

But what you said mouseface about them pretending to have a relationship with you by having sex with you even if you don't want it (rape - OH doesn't do that btw), rings clearly and darkly true with us. His having any kind of passion for me astounds me because it is not in keeping with the rest of his behaviour toward me. I often voice that to him - "how can you want to when...?" But your explanation is making even that - the last vestige of possible hope on my part - that he WANTS me - nulls and voids it.

Done one assignment today, 4 to go! Two weeks encounting. What will happen then, nobody knows but I'll be back here.

Thanks again all of you for sharing your wisdom and helping me make sense of this. Sorry if I'm not reading through threads and remembering who said what - it can get confusing.

barbiegrows · 22/06/2011 16:56

About families - I think when you meet dp it's a bit private usually, your dps only get to know them later on and by that time you're involved and badmouthing your DP is one of the biggest no-nos in our society. Now my Mum's not english so we've always slightly lost something in translation I think (she speaks in her language, I speak in english). What it means is that I can get away with 'selective hearing', and when I was younger (met him at 21), that's probably what I did. Now she says the stuff about 'your father is just as bad' 'what do you expect from him - he's a man! - all that stuff. But deep down I think she will be relieved when he's gone. It doesn't help to know that she's watched me sink deeper and deeper and never tried to haul me out.

MadameOvary · 22/06/2011 16:57

Ma - apologies for zeroing in on your drinking, I had been talking to an alcoholic in my support group who had been on a bender, she was on my mind. I dont drink at all and I find her lovely but also intense and scary. I'm glad you're on the battlebus Smile

I have been mega busy all day (too tedious to go into) so not had time to read the latest. Could you all stop posting so I can catch up? Thanks! Grin

MadameOvary · 22/06/2011 16:57

Sorry should clarify it is a DV support grop, not AA!

bigbuttons · 22/06/2011 17:05

bejeezus I have lost count of the number of times stbex has refused to go out because of a row. He has said he didn't want to spend the time with me because of a disagreement we had just had. H's been doing that for years and I too would always plead with him to go. I don't any more. last time he did this, I said that was his decision and the children and I would go alone. Of course he came back saying he wanted to go and why didn't I take the opportunity to go shopping. I did take the opportunity as I hadn't actually wanted to go to this articular thingWink
The worst time he ever did this was when my 5th child was 3 days old, note 3, days old, that's days, not months, weeks or years, but DAYS old. It was a christmas day and we were supposed to be going to my mum's who lives locally. He threw a paddy because of some disagreement we had that morning and said he wasn't going to come with us to my mum's. I couldn't drive myself having just given birth and feeling tired and shakey with terrible spd issues and 5 children aged 7 and under. I had to beg him to come with us, for the sake of the children, beg him, the bastard.
He did in the end. I was in bits of course, completely destroyed and very silent. Of course later in the day he said something along of lines of "what's up buttons, you've been very quiet today?"Angry
he has done this so many times I have lost count. He will never do it again though because I don't give a shit. Infact he will never do it again because I have refused to ever got out socially with him again anyway.

barbiegrows · 22/06/2011 17:06

And yes, last night he went to bed really early (NEVER happens) so I knew there was a plan. I tiptoed in, late and tired, with only 6 hours sleep before me, and he tries it on. He's trying different tactics now, hugs etc, but it's a bit like being ravaged by a teenage boy - he's not doing it because he loves me - it's very awkward and false. When I reject him (usually starts with a sorry and I'm as gracious as I can be about it) he bounds away in a huff, muttering something.

But mouseface put that straight just there, I understand it now. It's TWATSPEAK for if we don't have sex we are not in a relationship, so we must do that even if you don't want to and even if I am just doing it for my own gratification and no other reason. But it's weird cos when we are both up for it, sex is really good and he's considerate...remembers...early on though, it was terrible...for years...what I wanted fell on deaf ears...it only got better because he later realised it was better for him...the picture's fitting together now.

Someone tell me I haven't wasted my life.

barbiegrows · 22/06/2011 17:09

A last thought! - the quicker I get these assignments done the sooner I can be rid of Crabface.

bigbuttons · 22/06/2011 17:14

I quite liked bugfaceWink

barbiegrows · 22/06/2011 17:15

bigbuttons - what the hell those endless outing incidents do to our dcs, I do not know. It must be so stressful for them. I can hardly bear to think about that - I think that's the one thing that's kept me in denial in a way, facing up to what it has done to dcs. But now - like you bb - I don't give a shit if he's there or not. Prefer to go without him, even socially, even holidays. Of course usually he ends up coming, spreading his grudge and souring it for everyone.

bigbuttons · 22/06/2011 17:16

and barbie wasting your life would be putting up with the status quo. You're not are you?

Mouseface · 22/06/2011 18:38

barbie - you've not wasted your life, not at all. You life has changed around you, that's all.

What you thought would happen, how you planned it out in your mind, what you saw yourself doing, is no longer where you are now.

That's no fault of your own. You obviously wanted your H to make love the way you wanted, you tried to educate him, you tried to be so very tactful as not to upset or hurt him and eventually, you sort of got what you wanted.

It's so bloody hard to push them away without letting out every drop of rage boiled up deep within you at times. It chokes in your throat. You swallow it back down, and hope it stays there.

Sex is the last resort for them, that one last tiny bit of hope. That one last bit of control that they have. It makes me sick thinking about it but I've been there too.

HerHissyness · 22/06/2011 19:21

oh crap

"remembers...early on though, it was terrible...for years...what I wanted fell on deaf ears...it only got better because he later realised it was better for him..."

Lightbulb moment.

dementedma · 22/06/2011 19:59

OMG other people have the sex thing? not just me???????

bigbuttons · 22/06/2011 20:16

my ex thing is the opposite it seems. At the start he was very attentive but clearly had confidence issues. I could never tell him what I wanted because he'd take it as a criticism and then would not have sex.
Sex was always instigated by me. As the years went on it got worse. He used it as a weapon, i.e refusing to have sex with me as a punishment for my behaviour. The last time we had sex was when dc6 was conceived 5 years ago.
I think he has huge issues in this area. Whenever he sees naked bodies on tv he covers his face and makes disgusted noises

bigbuttons · 22/06/2011 20:17

sex thing i mean

Mouseface · 22/06/2011 20:23

WARNING - long and upsetting post follows, it is really long so grab a glass of wine.

I met the man of my dreams when DD was 2 years old. He was handsome, educated, well dressed, and had a gorgeous smile. He was almost magnetic.

People knew him, he waved to everyone in the village and they waved back. I'd never really noticed him before, and then our paths crossed in the village deli one lunchtime.

I was a single mum, working part-time as a manager in one of the village shops and just bumbling along with life. I didn't feel great about myself, my confidence had been worn away bit by bit, DD's father had been shagging anything that moved, hence the split and then after a few weeks of being apart, I found out I was expecting. I decided to keep the baby because my GP had told me that conceive easily. We decided not to try and make a go of it as we both wanted different things out of life, but he was and is a very supportive person, he and DD have a great relationship, and still see each other now.

Anyway, I'd started to notice this chap coming into work, quite often really..... on his own, with other men, his friends most likely and once another woman.

Then I noticed him when I was walking home, he went past in the car.
A few weeks later, I got a card through the post, asking me to call him as he'd like to take me to see a film, out for dinner or to the theatre. My choice.

You can imagine how flattered I was. Single mum, had a bit of shit ride in life with men, always going for the bad lads and the wrong ones! Never found a man to settle down with etc...... always been in emotionally abusive relationships. Even my very first boyfriend, cheated on me during our 6yrs together.

So. After 2 weeks, I built up the courage to call. We'll call him TwattyMcTwatFace, TF for short if that's okay.
We arranged a night out, he came to pick me up and we went for dinner. I had a lovely dinner, very swanky place and I actually felt as if it was too good for me to be in there IYKWIM?

He drove me home, dropped me off and walked me to the door. The dates continued, nights out, days away, weekends in swanky hotels, meeting his friends, parties. I fell for him more and more and more. He made me feel incredible, adored. He treated me like no-one ever had before, I was utterly besotted with him. He was the man of my dreams. I couldn't imagine my life without him.

Fast forward 6 months and I introduced him to DD. She loved him to bits and him her. We went out as a family, together, united. We went on holiday, yes, a real holiday on a plane! It was amazing. He bought us both clothes and gifts. We wanted for nothing. And, soon after he asked me to move in with him, with DD of course, and I jumped at the chance. He was like her real father, he tought her things, read to her, bathed her, snuggled her when she felt weepy and tired. He loved her so much. He was so gentle with her.

Then there was the sex. The sex was mind blowing, he was older than me by 12 years and he really showed it in bed. What he didn't do wasn't worth doing. We had such a great sex life. He refused to use condoms so I went on the pill. Which was fine.
Then he introduced drugs to me. Coke, weed, and poppers in the bedroom. We shopped for sex toys together, he wanted me to dress up for him. So I went along with it, I wanted to please him, I didn't like it but felt I couldn't tell him. I wanted to be his everything.

We started work on the house too, changing the cellar into a den and an office for him as he worked at home sometimes. When the building work was being done, he asked me to come to the cellar. There was a bottle of champagne, candles, chocolates etc.... we sat in the den, drinking and then he started to take my clothes off. I said I was too tired, let's just go to bed. He refused and said if I loved him I'd have sex. I agreed. after a few glasses of fizz, he decided we'd do something different and tied me up to the beams in the cellar with two of his ties. I had nothing but my knickers on and then he blindfolded me. I was so turned on but didn't know he'd spiked my drinks with vodka so I got drunk much more quickly.

He started to touch and kiss me, giving me more and more champagne. I was so dizzy, I felt ill, really ill. I begged him to stop but he refused. Then I felt something ice cold sliding up the inside of my thigh, it was a knife. Fucking hell, he had the huge kitchen knife and was getting closer and closer to my knickers. I actually wet myself in fear and he just laughed calling me a dirty bitch, then he slapped me and cut my knickers off. He held the knife to my throat as he forced himself inside my from behind. I was shaking with fear, not daring to breathe too deeply in case he cut me.

When he'd finished, he got my arms down and said for me to clean myself up, I looked a state etc. I showered and went to bed whilst he cleared up the cellar. We stayed together and that night was never mentioned again. It kind of stopped for a while, the aggresive sex. As if he didn't want to push his luck.

We started going clubbing, which I loved, that was my thing. We did more drugs, had more sex. DD was staying at her Gma's more and more. Days on end so that I could be with TF alone, with him more. I just wanted him. More treats, nights out, new friends....

Then one night he asked me if I fancied one of his mates, we'd been seeing him more and more but they were all good looking. I said I thought he was good looking. I didn't realise at first what the plan was. It happened so fast and I was so drugged up I just lay there and let his friend rape me. Tears rolling down my face. It was so quick, a minute maybe, if that. After he finished, TF came over to me, he'd been there and not stopped his friend, and punched me in the face calling me a whore, swearing at me and pushing me into the wall. Again, I cleaned myself up, if this is what he wanted, then I should let it happen.

I went to the bathroom, my face throbbing and looked in the mirror. I had a split lip and an imprint from his ring across my face.
I went back down and started apologising, saying that I was sorry to upset him. He calmed down and asked me to ait with him. I sat there in silence whilst the two of them laughed on joked about the many girls they'd had together. TF had another house in the area, and I later discovered that was where he took most of his shags.

A while later, we had some more coke. I said I wanted to go to bed, had to collect DD in the morning. He said he'd be up in a while.
I went up to bed and cried myself to sleep. I was woken by him forcing himself inside me. He had his hand over my face and was pushing down on me so hard I lost my breath. I didn't move. I just froze and when he'd finished, lay there not moving until I thought he was asleep. Everything hurt, my legs were bruised with finger marks.

I went to the bathroom and found I was bleeding, he'd torn me with the force.

The months went by, we followed a regular pattern, clubbing, drugs, parties, rape, treats and beatings. He'd always 'make it up to me' with expensive presents and flowers and a million 'sorrys'.

He was adopted and lost all of his adoptive family, apart from his brother . He'd tracked his real mother down but she didn't want to know him. He had family out there, waiting to find him but he shut down after that. That was his excuse for being like that, he'd never been loved or wanted, so I decided that I would be the one who loved him and wanted him. No matter what.

Then the others started. The other women. Sex, nights away from home, lies, calls, letters. He had a string of them on the go. I dropped 2 stone and my parents were so worried.

He always apologised, said they were lying, they meant nothing to him, they were just jealous.
I stayed. I wanted to change him. He needed to be loved. I answered the door to them, told them I was his partner and to please leave. We had phone calls at all hours of the night, women sobbing that they 'needed him'

He had texts all the times asking when he'd be there. And all the time I forgave him. He even cheated on me when we were o holiday together, he knew some of the women where we were staying, how convenient. We rowed and he said he was leaving unless I said I believed that him staying out all night, no call, nothing, didn't mean he'd slept with any of them.

In the Autumn he asked me to marry him. I accepted and then he said that maybe we should have a baby of our own. Not that he didn't love DD (he doted on her, loved her to bits, as if she were his flesh and blood) and I lept at the chance to give him his own family. We got pregnant straight away and had a fabulous time telling friends and family....... it was all going really well. He stopped hitting me, the calls stopped, the nights away stopped, the women turning up, everything. It was as if the baby had changed him for the better. He still smoked weed but had stopped all the other drugs.

We celebrated Christmas with my family and his friends then on boxing day, he told me to get rid of the baby. He said if I didn't he'd kick it out of me. I hadn't worked for some time, he paid for everything, even my tampons. My friends hadn't been around for a while nor my family.

I kind of had no-one to talk to but have no idea how it happened.

So, the next day I got an appointment for a few days time, went, and a few days later, terminated the baby and came home. When I got there he asked me if I was going to thank him for paying for the abortion.

I said no and got a slap for my trouble, nothing new there. That night the police were called, a domestic violence unit turned up and filmed the events. He had thrown me out onto the street, dragged me with my knickers on, out of bed and bleeding and just thrown me out.

A neighbour called the police when she saw him punching me in the face and belly. I was taken to my parents', as I refused hospita,l where DD was. He had my phone, clothes, bag, car keys, everything. I didn't see DD until the next day and she was mortified.

Three days later, I went back to him. My mum was mortified. I didn't care because he loved me and wanted me to come home to him. It was lovely for a while, we went on another holiday. I came back and was due to have an operation, all planned, on my kidneys. It went wrong and I ended up in ICU and then on the acute ward for 2 weeks, losing another 1.5 stone. I looked awaful. He came to see me most days, not all the time. DD stayed with my parents who refused to bring her to see me as I was so ill and said I would frighten her, plus the fact that they might bump into him.

When I came home, that very frist night he said he wanted sex. I said I was too sore, having had a drip and drain removed that afternoon. He said if I loved him, I'd let him. So I did. Whilst he was on top of me he told me that whilst I'd been in hospital, he'd been 'as good as gold' and that he 'hadn't touched another woman for weeks'. I didn't believe him. What did I have to do to get him to stop? Why wasn't I enough for him? I did everything he asked. Everything. I hardly saw DD.

One day, we'd fought about me not being allowed to apply for a job I'd seen (I'd not worked and had no contact with any friends or family by this point) and he really started to lose it. I said I was trying to please him by having some money so I could buy him nice things, get him treats and gifts. DD was there. He started to shout at her because she was crying. And then he lunged towards her in a real rage. I felt sick but knew I had to protect her. It was a real lightbulb moment. I saw his face, the horrid look in his eyes, I was suddenly scared that he'd hurt her, he'd kill her. I had to get her out, protect her.

That was all I needed, that was my get out of jail free card. He screamed at me that he hated me and called me a heap of names and left, said he didn't need this emotional blackmail, me protecting my own DD.

Right then and there, I knew I'd die or be seriously injured if I didn't leave. Two bags packed and a phone call to Shelter and I was on my way to the hostel.

I found out that he'd gotten his ex pregnant, and by then, I'd left him for good but needed some things that were stored in the house so went to collect them. He was there, I knew he would be. I found him, sobbing in the kitchen, in our kitchen that we'd designed together. Breaking his heart because he'd fucked up royally for the very last time. She refused a temination and had his DD against his wishes.
He absolutley meant every last tear that day. I saw in his eyes that he felt beaten. And I smiled. I walked out of that house with my belongings, leaving my key on the table in the hall, looked round one more time and closed the front door.

He didn't beg me to stay, to come back. He just said over and over that he was sorry. So very sorry. I saw in his eyes that he was hollow inside. I didn't even feel glad about it. I felt relieved. I felt tired and worn out. I felt free, I felt the wind on my face, I saw the trees, the road, the sky, I could feel my heart beating in my throat but it wasn't out of fear, it was out of love for my DD.

Three month's later, we got our own house. Just the two of us, DD and I. We had so much fun decorating, she chose her own room colours, we went on holiday, the tow of us, we had days out. I got a job! A real job, for us, so we had money. We made new friends. She settled at school. She slept through the night and she held me so close. We had so much fun, just us.

That was the worst 2.5 years of my life but I'm 7 years on from that person, from that relatiosnhip. I met my now DH 6 years ago and we've been married 5. I didn't think I'd ever want to be with anyone again. I thought I didn't need anyone. But then I met DH, we wer friends for a while first and then I just fell in love. Real love. I've never been happier. I'm safe. I'm loved, I'm resoected and I'm trusted. I have friends and family and we share so much. DD adores DH and we have DS together too.

Life is exactly what I ddin't realise I wanted but absolutley love. I wouldn't change a thing about my life now, well maybe a few more hours in the day.

One thing I'll take with me from my time with TF is that he used to say 'First you fuck their body, then you fuck their mind' and he would actively seek out single mothers to 'rescue'. He wanted to save them from themselves by giving them everything. He'd watch them for weeks, find out about them, ask after them and find out who they knew.

What an absolute charmer eh?

I guess what he didn't realise is that there was a breaking point with me.

I saw him once, in a supermarket. I nearly threw up right there. He said 'Hey Mouse, how are you? How's DD? Great to see you'

I stood there and said very slowly 'You have no right to ask me those questions, you are pathetic and I'm not going to waste my breath on you, goodbye' and turned around, headed straight for the loos and puked for England.

I also found out that he still has a photo of DD in his lounge. He tells people that she is his daughter, who died.

Sick bastard. I hope he rots in hell.

Thank you for reading if you got this far.

HerHissyness · 22/06/2011 20:32

demented, love, have you not seen how they often work to a script???

OK so BB says that her's was kind of the opposite, it's the whole if she asked for Xy or z, she'll get nothing. and sub text - she'll get what she's given.

Oh jesus, another lightbulb. Whenever I was proactive at the beginning, saying let's do this or trying to give him a bj or something he TOLD ME it had to be on his terms...

Is that one on the red flags list? it bloody well ought to be.

When X went off to Egypt in 2004, for a few months, I went down there at christmas for about a month's holiday. Bearing in mind a trip from the UK to Alex is a flight leaving london, getting into Cairo at about midnight, with a 3hr drive to Alex. We then got to the flat he rented on the seafront, at 4am, he talked and talked and talked, rolled cigarettes, and talked some more. My chin was on my chest I was so tired, but the sun came up and eventually I said, I have been travelling all day, I have not slept, I am exhausted, I will fall asleep right here and now... so then he decides we'll go to bed.

During this trip he also didn't have sex with me for a few days, but then told me he had withheld it - to see my reaction Shock I don't recall there being one, so dunno what he gained by it all.

Him coming over to the UK, he wants to leap into bed the moment he arrives Hmm his flight gets in at 2pm...OK so it leaves at 8am and he has to drive through the night to get it, but WT...? Confused

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