Support for those in Emotionally Abusive Relationships

[ViVee]

I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread, a place to vent, offer support, advice.

I'm in an emotionally abusive relationship but I'm trying to find the tools to fight back - I've recently started counselling & the Lundy Bancroft book (Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds of Angry and Controlling Men) (recommended by mumsnetters) has become my bible.

Anyone else feel the same?

I can tell you all that my DH is still struggling with the long-term psychological effects of growing up (from the age of 13) with an emotionally abusive stepfather. Nothing is "set", but the longer you stay with an abuser, the less time you have to make it right after you leave, I would be inclined to leave before your teenagers pull away too much. Don't fool yourselves, when a child witnesses abuse, it is abuse towards the child and it will have long term effects.

Barbie, perhaps your DD has picked up on your resolution to try and stay with your abuser and is angry about it? DH started running away from home when he was 14 when he realised his mum was getting back together with her abuser, a pattern that continued throughout his adolescence.

I hope so too TFMIF!

I went away with my friends this weekend, and typically he says wickedly horrible things about them, I believe in an effort to socially isolate me. He hasn't said anything, as he's toeing the line at the moment, but instead he's saying "Why are you being so dismissive and distant from me?" like he's goading me to react to him - I've just said "No I'm not" and walked away.
Anyway, it was good to see my best chums, and get a bit of perspective again.

Today have marriage counselling. My friends say I should use this time to be honest but I'm so worried about his reaction once we leave that I tend to be quite restrained.

This week he will be away so I may go up and stay with my folks for a few days. Only thing is my eldest is at pre-school nursery so I feel bad for taking him out of it, but it's not statutory for him to go, and I guess a few days is ok?

Dizie - no I haven't resolved to stay - I need to work this through a bit and read through the book, find money for my counsellor who is great but expensive. I think DD is destabilised and I can see she is picking up on abusive behaviour and acting out in the same way - copying Dad - at the same time she is beautiful, lovely and amazingly well balanced. Simultaneously Dad has simmered down a bit. I think the knock on effect of 13 years of turmoil in her life, followed by 2 weeks of relative calm brought about by me disengaging and him calming down may have got her to fill in the gaps. This makes sense in the Beverly Engel book - it's not one person's problem, the whole family shapes itself in response to abuse and this then reverberates back with a horrible confusion for children and a discord / compensation to adults.

I would rather see the effects of my change while we're with him as that will set a better example to them than having him disappear out of our lives. But I do see this as the beginning of the end. Although the patterns have shifted, he is just too rigid to see change. Perhaps where women get wiser as they get older, men just get more entrenched.

This morning he said to me 'is it going to rain today' - usually I would faff around trying to find the answer as if I'm some kind of weather expert. Today I said - 'I really don't know'. Then it's 'is there any more sugar' - again, 'I'm not sure, have a look'. These sound like simple things but deep down they niggle me - and the fact that he responds with stunned silence (not hostile) to me indicates that these questions are ways for him to draw me into what frequently ends up in conflict (yes, even talking about the weather will turn into something completely different and then ends up as an argument).

What the Engel book says is that if you're new in the abusive situation a sit down and a serious talk can be enough to assert your position. But in a long-term relationship, each incident needs to be dealt with and so far that seems to be working.

I don't think we will stay together but I think the breakup will be less hostile and I will learn a lot more from it to take it a bit slower. I think in the end, assuming he won't change, he will just look for someone else who will fulfill his need for conflict.

Just had to say, Merrywidow, your short and sweet story does say it all.

Sorry to ramble on, feel free to get bored by my whittering, I think you will understand that I have to be a bit self-centred at the moment.

Hi everyone

Timeforme Thanks for saying all of that. I am clinging on to the hope that things will get better and hearing things like that helps enormously.

Barbie The Engel book sounds interesting, but I would be too nervous to read it if if it any way suggested that you can "fix" an abuser (does it?) The one thing I really took away from the Lundy book, is the message that there is little hope in changing an abusers behaviour. I know from trying that there is no way you can sustain trying to "manage" the situation. This became really clear to me when I became very ill after a miscarriage, desperately needed support but was instead punished with abuse for not being attentive enough to H I realise now that there will always be times in your life when you are ill/sad/tired etc when "managing" an abuser isnt an option.

I think this is why it took me 5 five months from reading Lundy to really accept that I was in an abusive relationship, because admiting the abuse meant admitting the end. Seeing the effects on my two, nearly three year old however has helped me have MORE resolve to get out. He has started shouting "calm down mummy!" when I cry, echoing his dads words

peep toes marriage counselling made things much worse for me. We tended to focus a lot on H's feelings and I ended up being pressured to make loads of promises to improve MY behaviour I stopped going when the therapist suggested I see a pychotherapist for medication and H just used it later as another weapon ("You're mad" etc) Be very careful and follow your instincts. If you want be restrained then do, your friend doesnt know what an abusive relationship is like, but you do, so trust your instincts. You may be taking the counselling seriously but there is every chance that your H will just lie to impress the counsellor and make no attempt to actually put anything into practice when he gets home (this is what mine did, and I fell for it)

I have just survived my second weekend post-separation. I find week days OK as I can keep busy and we have a routine, but the weekend I was dreading partly because of the loneliness and partly because Saturday was the first time letting H take DS out for a visit. Both my therapist and lawyer recommend he doesnt visit in the house but takes him out, but I was SO sick with worry that maybe he wouldnt bring him back! All was well though and DS and me had a lovely day out with old friends on Sunday. Quite sad watching all the couples and families at the nature park we went to, and it made me realise just how severely depressed I am, but I feel convinced that this depression will lift when I get used to living abuse free.

Peeptoes - amazing how disengaging changes so much. Don't worry about nursery - you are lucky that's the only thing that's tying you down. We've got commitments now such as secondary schools, friends and community, work on the house, debts, a holiday booked next week - these make it even harder to up and leave.

I bought the Engel book and I would have tried to do what it says in years gone by - but it wouldn't have worked. It does have some good techniques in it, but it starts from the point of view that both partners want to improve their relationship. Sometimes one of them likes it just fine the way it is.

It has often been said by wise people, including Saint Lundy of Bancroft and many Mumsnetters, that couple counselling in an abuse situation doesn't do any good and often does harm. You can't open up your heart in front of someone who will exploit your vulnerability to keep you down, a convincing liar who will manipulate the counsellor into becoming his accomplice, or a violent bully who will knock you around afterwards for telling tales. A wise counsellor refuses to work with such couples. ("Why Does He Do That?" contains a couple of horror stories on this theme.)

marking my place... back later

nicecup I would expect your emotions to be completely up and down - hang on in there. So many of the people who have been through this have said that separating is the best thing they have done - they will know (not me)!

The Engel book also says that you can't fix an abuser but what it does say is that they can fix themselves if they want to. But as I mentioned before in your case it looks as though your OH's abuse has developed into narcissistic personality disorder and Engel admits that it would be almost impossible to get back to normal from that.

And she says it is a two-way street. The relationship cannot be fixed unless both individuals fix themselves. She says it is highly unlikely that will happen. What it does deal with though is looking at your entrenched history (for me this is important as we have been together so long) - why you got together (you both needed each other at the time), looking at where 'you' end and your reactive persona begins. It looks as though you got out in time for that to be a problem with you (that slap was your wake-up call).

In response to my OH over the years, I have changed so much. I have no motivation, I seek a reaction through failing to do what I'm supposed to, I am very defensive when attacked, I forget pain and arguments too easily. I overeat. But mostly, I have stopped growing, building on what I have, progressing. Recently I went to a place where we had a day trip years ago. I remembered pain and sadness - it came back to me and consumed me. It is as if I block it out and then it comes back to me in a blinding flash. I feel terrible for the children. And I feel furious at the ridiculous counsellors and practitioners I've had in the past. What a bunch of time-wasters. I spelled it all out loud and clear to them. The fact is I am 'managing' my abuser as you said nicecup, dealing with the abuse. I mentioned in my last thread that I'm only with him because I am strong. Sadly my strength is wasted and he uses all of it so there's nothing left for me.

The book has helped me understand why he is like he is. His family history is completely screwed up. His family don't like me and are very insular - a very tight knit small clan who are massively dependent on each other. They cannot accept that he has his own family and rarely see us. They are a complete bunch of nuts (sorry if that's abusive) - medicating each other - over-feeding their kids overeating, aggressive in their tone of voice, egotistical and narcissistic. They don't all have all the traits, but all have some of them. Weird with pets too - totally controlling with them.

But I don't think he will change - the best I can hope for is that, as I stop playing into his hands, he will get bored and move on to find the woman he wants. In the meantime the book's by our bed and he knows about it. If he picks out the right stuff I will wait. If he picks out stuff and uses it against me I will leave. If he doesn't pick it up at all I will also leave.

I think that's all you can do, really, Barbie. Give him a chance to think about it and see whether he's capable of changing or whether the damage is too deep. I am pretty sure that XH had one or more personality disorders which would have prevented him from getting any benefit out of the book other than some things to accuse me of! He might have thought about it for about five minutes, but then the discomfort of admitting he had behaved badly would have become too much and he'd have started shifting the blame. (I saw him do that in front of me once, the way his face changed, it was horribly spooky, like the possessed serial killer in a horror movie.) As you realised, the book only works if you accept your part in it. You have... can your OH?

Annie I'll keep you posted on whether he can. It is highly unlikely. Last time I brought it up he said 'but you wouldn't think it's anything to do with you, would you - your weight, or the medication you're on..." (meds are not relevant) - all in his hostile voice as he's walking out of the room. Now I will be honest and admit my part though, I started the conversation with 'do you know why your Mum and Dad split up?' - a question never been answered in all these years, but that I've never asked. That was NOT a good start I admit. That was me trying to lead into the 'our relationship has got to change' talk. Not wise.

You're right about the Beverly Engel book though, there is loads to arm an abuser with accusations here, partly because it speaks to both male and female abusers and victims. I'm prepared for him to do that, use it against me, if he does I will really know where I stand.

Have had a bit of a time of it over the weekend.

I arranged to see a friend who I haven't seen in ages. Told H what time I was meeting her - he had things to do, which made me an hour & half late. (grrrr - typical). H was all apologies - he's being 'nice' at the moment. Anyway, I had an hour with her - a whole hour of being ME, which made me realise ... I'm actually quite intelligent & deserve to be listened to!!!!

In the evening I invited some people over (mainly H's friends) for dinner - he has always said that I'm antisocial, so I wanted to prove a point (obviously fuelled by meeting with friend & realisation that I am a human being). It was very 'frosty' to say the least - H has been telling people that I'm unhinged. I actually felt a bit shit & was very tempted to stand up half way through & say - 'hello everybody, thank you for coming (and eating MY food in My house, being complete fuckers towards ME, going on the grand tour of my house which I've spent the day cleaning), I would like you to know, contrary to what my H has told you, I'M NOT MAD, UNHINGED, SUFFERING FROM PND' ... but I didn't as my children were there.

Anyway ... I told H I wanted him to stay at his mums for the next few days, which is where he is now.

He will be back on friday & I want to make some decisions before then. Had enough of the 'dilly dally' & I'm going to go for it. (eeek)

TimeforMeisFree; my H is also convinced it's me that is crazy, and yes, he also had me convinced to. i think he knows his usual tactics aren't working....and he is trying new ones....

Had a really awful evening last night; huge argument when H got back from conference he'd been at all weekend, him telling me I had issues, that the tone of voice I used to speak to him was dreadful, totally out of order, that I made everything out to be about him and things he did wrong,that I never asked him how he was or hugged him enough, and on the train home he'd been looking forward to telling me his news and how I'd really 'get it', and I just didn't care.
This was because the children had interrupted him earlier telling me at length about the conference and I said to H, really interested to hear more once the kids are in bed, then we can chat uninterrupted.
He then started physically shaking and basically 'monologuing' about how awful i am, but I couldn't really understand what he was saying (he does this thing where he uses big words but sometimes he doesn't understand what they mean, so what he says is a bit nonsensical? I used to think I was just being stupid and didn't understand, now I think he does it on purpose to confuse me!)
Then he announced that i had plenty of things to be ashamed of, and I had no right to make him feel ashamed for having an affair (I hadn't mentioned the affair, in fact, I hadn't really said anything other than to ask why he was so angry). I said I had no idea what he meant, could he explain. He said that he had seen a secret file on my old email account into which I had 'diverted' emails from his email account. .
I told him he must be mistaken. He then went all quiet and said, oh, it doesn't matter, it's fine that you did that....

We kind of went round in circles after that because i was so thrown. I have no idea what he is talking about. Honestly.

What is going on? Does he really think this, or is he trying to confuse me?

Sorry; just read that back: when I said H was physically shaking I mean his body was shaking, visibly; not that he was shaking me!

Sorry, am too tired to read whole thread properly, but one thing stands out to me...
I am certain that I was told that people like Relate etc would not accept couples where there is abuse in the relationship. I'm sorry to sound blunt, but I think you are wasting your time trying to change these men. My exH has been married twice before, I am wife number 3. He also has a string of long term failed relationships. I have spoken to 3 of his ex partners/wives and I see that his whole life he has behaved the same way.
I think all this stuff about crap childhoods is just that... crap. Like Lundy Bancroft says, if you're childhood was so crap then you would know what it feels like to be unloved, unwanted, abused etc... so you would never want to afflict that on anybody.

Sorry, if that seems harsh but I think we would all be much better off focussing on improving our lives for ourselves and our children and these abusive men will have to take their chance on their own.

I left on xmas eve 2010 and life in the last almost 6 months has been a rollercoaster of emotions with real highs and terrible lows for me and my 3 kids, but every day it gets a little bit better. Now when I look at my kids, I see that it's not perfect, but their life is pretty much normal,which they never had before and thier father is not capable of giving to them. Not because of his crap childhood and all that other shit, but because he is so busy focusing on himself, that there is no space for anybody else. My kids are the centre of my world and for him, the centre of his world is himself.

Every day I hope that my kids will learn a little bit more about how "normal" healthy realtionships/lives/families work from me and they will forget a little bit more of his poisonous influence.

wizbit you sound so strong to have left, stay strong and keep hold of that feeling of being safe!

I know what you mean about feeling worn down and just accepting it as normal. I spoke to exH recently to arrange contact and he came across as downright rude, agressive and nasty on the phone. I said "don't you dare speak to me like that" but he just didn't get it.... now I realise that it's his normal everyday voice and I was used to it. Quite shocking now to realise how downtrodden I was to think that was "normal"!

Another escapee here. Eight months ago I left my H and my (older)DC in the family home because I was losing my sanity. After a difficult couple of years H had convinced me I was the abuser, he was the victim, and everything was my fault. He is a hugely intelligent emotionally switched on guy who has a violent abusive father and divorced probably narc mother. He only ever wanted to be seen as kind and good and in the right as that was how he grew up.

Now I am living alone and distance has brought much clarity. It is not kind to harang your spouse through the night, to push her till she is sobbing and desperate to get away, to blame her for everything in your life that goes badly.

Now when he rings up and asks if I have taken the bath towels, or asks where I have put his coat, I can see how laughable it all is. Since I left I have been angry only once, when I was bullied by someone. I am not abusive, I was unhappy. My DC seem to be coping despite H saying I have ruined their lives with my selfishness.

I feel I don't need to prove anything now, time will show the truth. And it is so lovely to sleep all night and not wake in a panic. Or be forced into sex against my will. Or dread going home and not know why. Or feel I am never good enough. 28 years of that. Imagine.

littlehouse it;s a good feeling isn't it

can I join please?

Littlehouse - I too have stopped reacting when I get those stupid questions -where's this? What time is that? Endless endless pointless questions aimed I now realise to get me to engage so that he can nit-pick, somewhere along the line. 'Try looking' is my usual response now. Completely stumps him.

Snaildoodle your relationship sounds unbearable - for both of you. It actually sounds quite scary to me.

Humptydidit - I don't think anyone can change their partner and nobody here is suggesting it. They have to change themselves and I believe that anyone can change if they want to - but that's just it - they have to want to. Beverly Engel explains separation as a process of disentangling yourself and examining where you are as well as your partner. I have found it amazing to see how a change in my reactions has changed his behaviour - that doesn't mean he will stop being abusive, he's just a bit thrown by it and will probably change his tack - we'll wait and see.

I think my children will get a lot out of seeing this change happen. They are already recognising the stupidity and ignoring his comments (such as making a banal joke when I'm having a serious conversation with dd about doing some voluntary conservation work - 'are you going to save some whales'.) Hilarious. He had to say it twice and we just carried on talking. But if I'd just walked out dd wouldn't have seen that to be able to understand that it's not us, it's him. Not long ago I would have got stressed by that comment and got drawn in or tried to defend dd or just let him take over with his sidetracking.

Funny how this kind of abuse is about the little things - the things that you really can't complain too much about. But it's relentless and hugely disruptive long term.

Hi there all, I'm in the process of trying to end things here too. He just isn't "getting it" either and goes through the same cycle of trying to win me over followed by abuse when he doesn't get his own way, followed by the promise to change. Its been at the same stage for a few weeks now. I've been sticking to my guns, not letting him have his way or win me over. He responds by hurling abuse about how horrible I am, how cold I am, how I only care about myself. How I'm punishing him for something he doesnt know he did (!?!) He went nuts last night over a friend of mine who I briefly went out with over 10years ago responding to a post on my fb page. He told me I was punishing him, and how funny it was that this "snake" had shown up and who am I telling about all of this. He also called me a whore and told me he hoped my decision killed me inside.
This morning he wanted to know why I didn't wake him up to take the DCs to school. I did it myself. I explained to him that I didn't want to wake up someone that wished so ill of me. He started on again about how bad I am. He also started going on about a family event coming up (his side) where yesterday he said he would only bring one of the Dcs (funnily enough his own biological dd not solely mine) so it was pure mind games. When I said there was no way my children were going to a family event without me he claimed his family would look after them. His family have a history of drinking too much at family events and who knows what would kick off so I said there was no way I was allowing them to go without me there with them.
So a while later after he had another rant about me being never affectionate never showing him respect etc etc you know the drill. Then when that was over he came in here and said " I will go to anger management. I love you I want to try.................but you have to set it up" (sad face from him)
I just blankly said No. I'm not doing that. You have to want to do that for you not me. Its clear he doesn't think he has a problem and won't take ownership for it and obviously I've gotten my head around that. So when he got that response he got up and started ranting again about how cold I am and how I am going to regret it and clearly I still love him thats why I'm still here. No. I'm still here because its my house and I should be here with my kids in my house. I said if I could have left I would have ages ago.
He left then slamming the door behind him.
He just won't accept it. Its so hard to keep this up and be so strong! Its exhausting. I'm in bed early every night just because I don't want to have to deal with more persuasion and henpecking!

XH once told me he was agreeable to us having an open marriage but that I would have to procure the girls for him

You do know he'll never accept it? This bad feeling obviously doesn't upset him as much as it does you, so he can keep it up for much longer. Forever if necessary.

hi, bigbuttons - pull up a chair

Breakfee weepy sighs from me - this is so familiar. Buy the Beverly Engel book on Amazon. You are in an emotionally abusive relationship and this will help you disentangle from it without (hopefully) substituting it with another similar situation. Men have as little understanding about this as we do and they will NOT learn from us, we can be clear as we can but if they are pre-programmed to react in this way nothing we say will make any difference. Reading the book helps you see why you have ended up in this relationship and will prevent the same thing happening again - we are also pre-programmed in the same way and are just as likely to end up in another similar relationship if we don't break the behaviour patterns. Most abusers find victims and draw them into the behaviour patterns that fulfill the need in their damaged psyches. likewise victims find emotional abusers because they fit a pattern that suits them - at the time, in the beginning. What seems like a good fit at first, later becomes a nightmare as you try and survive, suffocating, struggling for air and he's desperate to keep you down because he loves you and your kids as much as you loved him once and can't bear to let you go. And then it becomes warped, distorted, personality disorders develop, the 'original abuser', usually his parents come into the picture and he then allies with them against you. Then it becomes scary, dangerous and he will be playing games to his rules. I think for you and me both, things have reached this point and separating is the only option.
Having said that, since I read the Engel book and left it by the bed he has changed. But only time will tell whether that's just another game he's playing.

Hi bigbuttons -
This is may be a depressing and heavy thread, but it's cheaper than therapy!