Anyone feeling slightly uncomfortable with the scale of the sentencing after the riots?

[TiredWife]

Firstly, in no way do I support the disgusting, racist behaviour we've seen over the last couple of weeks, and I fully believe the major perpetrators need to be found and punished.

Given his background Starmer has obviously been able to pull lots of strings to process a huge volume of offenders through the courts, and there is clearly a directive to name and shame in the media to send the clear message that this sort of behaviour will not be tolerated. All good, and in the past I would have been firmly in support of this.

However there's something about the scale and speed of the court response which is making me uncomfortable. It feels as if they are highlighting specific cases to 'send a message' and it doesn't seem consistent with how the police and courts have handled previous similar cases.

So for instance an 18 year old has just been sentenced to 26 weeks in a young offender institution for 'possession of a bladed article in a public place'. I live near a London suburb and I reckon about a third of men out on the streets on a Saturday night would fall foul of this! But the police seem reluctant to stop them, let alone charge them?

Similarly the 53 year old woman, first offender, jailed for 15 months over Facebook hate post. Again, I don't condone what she did, but when you look at all the hate that women get online, or the death threats sent to JKR or MPs, there are few instances of people being jailed in the same way?

Justice needs to be applied fairly and consistently, across all groups, but this feels like a response at a level which cannot be maintained/applied across the board? Is that fair?

What do 12 and 13 year olds get a free pass? They know right from wrong and are probably yobs. They need to face the consequences of their actions.

Yes, I did know that.

My point was that @scalt was criticising the way Keir Starmer has responded to the riots and the subsequent sentencing, as a new PM, and I asked if they felt the same about the way David Cameron responded to the 2011 riots as a fairly new PM at the time. As other people have noted, the response / sentencing in 2011 was similar to what’s happening now.

I agree with OP. I’m pleased to see a clear message being sent and that there are consequences for this terrible behaviour…. But I just read somebody getting 2.5 years custodial sentence for verbal abuse, and it does make me question it. Especially when you compare to what people get for possessing indecent images of children, domestic violence and drink driving.

The verbal abuse is a criminal offence in itself and in context of a riot it will be seen as inflaming the situation. Why should anyone be on the receiving end of that? It is threatening, frightening and could have escalated the situation for all we know.

Those protests weren't risking destabilising the entire country. Widespread rioting needs a completely different approach.

The vast majority of these crimes are committed by NON immigrants.

@Noname99 And what exactly were a 13 and two 12 year olds doing in a riot and where were their parents at the time? If the children were looting shops then well, doesn't bode well for their future and a custodial sentence was inevitable somewhere along the line! Everyone knows the riots were the absolute lawless and entitled dregs of society using any old excuse for their thuggery, thievery and mayhem. Many even trashing their own high streets and good hard working roles livelihoods. So it's hard to feel any sympathy whatsoever. They got what was coming to them. Doubt they'll serve full sentences any of them, it will be quietly reduced or quashed when the spotlight is off.

It wouldn't be my choice of direction, but I think it's happening regardless; look how many people are thrilled with the idea of people being locked up for posting something on Facebook. I very much do agree that violent offenders should be jailed in all cases, but someone being sent to prison for over two years for kicking and rocking a police van is ridiculous, especially when paedophiles get suspended sentences for actual rape.

It is absolutely possible to build a society without free speech, look at China for example. It has been tried many times before and invariably ended with some people (eventually usually the majority) leading horrifically unpleasant lives. But for those who are not sent away, life's pretty good - at least until it isn't. Those wanting people locked up for having the wrong views presumably believe they'll be in the latter group.

Chinese people have a far better quality of life than they did a few decades ago, they're at the very forefront of innovation and are economically and politically unrivalled outside America (actually surpassing America by some measures). And they've achieved it absurdly quickly. Many Chinese people will think their astonishing ascent absolutely worth the misery inflicted on those who don't tow the line, and quite probably if we follow the same path, we will feel the same. I don't know that many of the people on here relishing the idea of people being put away for disliking immigration are going to suddenly regret it, especially if their lives continue to tick peacefully along. When we read about people who have suffered under fascism or tyranny it's from people the who oppose it, or after the entire society collapses and people start to realise they were wrong.

There are undeniably problems with the notion of free speech in the age of the internet, which I think do need to be addressed. But I get the impression the majority would prefer to just banish people who say or think the wrong things - and as I believe in democracy, I feel I have to respect that even if I don't agree. I of course am not suggesting the current arrests make us the same as China, Russia etc, but it is the first step on that path and we can choose to follow it or not.

Yes I agree with this. There was a case recently where someone who was driving drunk and on drugs killed three people - 2 children and an adult- but got 12 years, with the expectation they will probably only serve 6.

Yabu. The riots were fascist in impetus. It's a peculiarly European problem and wherever it rears up it needs to be tackled vigorously and immediately.

In which case I look forward to seeing the prison sentences coming down the line for all the online posters inciting hatred with their 'Kill the Terfs' messages at women's peaceful speaker events?

The sentencing is harsh and that’s because they want to send a clear message. It’s more about halting further riots by showing would-be rioters what awaits them if they take that path.

Population control and order is something that freaks the government out

Yes that was a big issue.

100's of police officers attending one crime (as such)

Nearly 100 injured and likely then off

100's had leave cancelled which will then need to be taken at a later date cause shortages another time.

I don't think people appreciate the big effect 1 riot has. Let alone many in a short space of time around the country.

It also took fire people and ambulances too which meant they couldn't be elsewhere.

I can't believe all the people who think Kier Starmer has pulled strings/had sway. This is how the criminal justice system works after large civil disturbances. It was same in 2011. Sentences are as normal for taking part in a riot.

This blog sets out the realities behind the bollocks being spouted. thesecretbarrister.com/2024/08/14/two-tier-justice-cutting-through-the-online-myths/

And also all the 'From the river to the sea' people. I saw no outrage on Mumsnet about that.

Two tier policing is a thing. No point pretending it's not.

Bites them* dust
*
www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/lets-see-what-youve-cost-the-country-plymouth-judge-savagely-puts-rioter-in-his-place-381107/

Here it is.

Sorry about the delay my phone rang!

@Namechangey23

Why on earth would you think sentences would be quashed when the spotlight is off

It worries me that the speed of the sentencing means all of the pre sentencing probation and mental health checks have not been done properly and people are getting the wrong sentences as a result.

Totally agree

unfortunately no other way controlling a massive big population like this one

see I don't agree, either that the message is clear, or that the behaviour won't be tolerated. There's a thread running on MN atm about absolutely blatant, constant, shoplifting with nothing being done about it, ever, staff not even reacting, police not even attending let alone bringing cases to court.

That might be locality dependent.

In my area we are always getting FB pictures - like the rioters - of people wanted in connection with shoplifting or arrested for shoplifting or charged and a sentence. They use cctv and catch these people and they are being sentenced. Locally anyway.

They deserve the sentences they got, an example needs to be set.

Sentences for many other crimes should be longer.

I don't claim to understand the way the criminal justice system works..but I assume they can appeal it or have an opportunity for earlier release for good behaviour? I hope they don't by the way! Sure I've heard other criminals don't seem to serve their actual sentence?!

No. Justice should be timely. These are simple cases seen by magistrates and, for the most part, the criminals are pleading guilty.

Sharp and swift. That'll put their gas at peep!